# Maddow Names 2012 Republican GOP Opponent: Karl Rove **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 5, 2011, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddow-names-2012-republican-gop-opponent-karl-rove/598723 "2011-10-05T20:20:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddow-names-2012-republican-gop-opponent-karl-rove/598723/61 "2011-10-06T15:57:29Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Karl Rove has raised [a quarter of a billion dollars](http://www.iwatchnews.org/2011/09/08/6226/karl-roves-crossroads-has-more-doubled-its-earlier-fundraising-goal-120-million) already for the 2012 elections. Much of that money has come from big-spending right wing donors [who contributed six and seven figure checks.](http://www.iwatchnews.org/2010/09/16/2515/karl-rove-gop-heavyweights-find-sugar-daddies-groups-influencing-elections) I thought campaign donations were capped at 4.000 bucks per head ? Or am I thinking of something else ? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddow-names-2012-republican-gop-opponent-karl-rove/598723/62 "2011-10-06T15:58:44Z")
It took them damn near thirty seconds to get around that one. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddow-names-2012-republican-gop-opponent-karl-rove/598723/63 "2011-10-06T16:13:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Your sarcasm is speaking louder than your good sense, **John**. You don’t have to be stupid to be misled. You need only be skillfully lied to. Which, as you probably already know, is best done by professionals. “Best”, in this case, meaning most effectively. Ok, then please explain why support letting the government ban movies and books. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddow-names-2012-republican-gop-opponent-karl-rove/598723/64 "2011-10-06T16:34:54Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > How soon we forget Candidate Meg Whitman. You mean the candidate who lost? But what difference does it make whether she won or lost? > [@](#): > > As for suppressing speech I disagree with, I never called for that, it is a strawman. I called lying and face stomping intimidation disgusting. Both are also illegal, although apparently don’t get punished. Lying is not illegal, which might be why it generally doesn’t get punished. And the whole face stomping thing is red herring, having nothing at all to do with free speech. Besides, from your own cite: > [@](#): > > Today, October 26, 2010, detectives identified the suspect, involved in the assault, as Tim Profitt. Mr. Profitt is currently being served with a criminal summons ordering him to appear before a Fayette County District Court Judge. > [@](#): > > Remember it is within the legal rights of the lied about to sue for defamation. I decried spending zillions filling the airwaves with negativity and hate. I think the semi-civilized debates that we have going on with the Republican candidates are much better at informing us people. Freedom is a bitch. We’re free to be negative and hateful. You could try to pass a constitutional amendment to outlaw negative and hateful speech, but I don’t think it would fly. > [@](#): > > I am okay with limiting corporate donations, but have not yet argued that in this thread. Citizens United is a stupid decision, as it grants corporations rights because they are supposedly people, which isn’t true and never was. As has already been noted, they have had certain legal protections afforded to persons going back to before the founding of this country. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddow-names-2012-republican-gop-opponent-karl-rove/598723/65 "2011-10-06T16:38:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Your sarcasm is speaking louder than your good sense, **John**. You don’t have to be stupid to be misled. You need only be skillfully lied to. Which, as you probably already know, is best done by professionals. “Best”, in this case, meaning most effectively. A lecture from you on over use of sarcasm? Physician, heal thyself. But so what? Are we to outlaw speech that is deemed to be a lie (aside from actual slander, of course)? Am I not allowed to stand on the corner and say: _Tariffs are good for the country!_ ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddow-names-2012-republican-gop-opponent-karl-rove/598723/66 "2011-10-06T16:42:50Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Ok, then please explain why support letting the government ban movies and books. Oh, say it a few more times, won’t you please? It just gets zingier every time— like the rest of your tiresome, endlessly repeated “gotcha” questions. You need a new shtick. Badly. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddow-names-2012-republican-gop-opponent-karl-rove/598723/67 "2011-10-06T17:08:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > To be fair, he was using the law of equivalence. If A = B, then B = A. > > Except, in this case, A ≠ B. FWIW, **Bricker** ’s interpretation of the nature of the original confusion is in fact correct. The copula in “money is speech” links “money” to “speech” in such a way as to indicate that satisfaction of one predicate implies satisfaction of another. Something like: For any x, if x is an instance of spending money to convey a message [M(x)], then x is an instance of speech [S(x)]. Formally: ∀x M(x) ⇒ S(x). Which does not imply ∀x S(x) ⇒ M(x), the original claim in question. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddow-names-2012-republican-gop-opponent-karl-rove/598723/68 "2011-10-06T17:12:36Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > FWIW, **Bricker** ’s interpretation of the nature of the original confusion is in fact correct. The copula in “money is speech” links “money” to “speech” in such a way as to indicate that satisfaction of one predicate implies satisfaction of another. Something like: For any x, if x is an instance of spending money to convey a message [M(x)], then x is an instance of speech [S(x)]. Formally: ∀x M(x) ⇒ S(x). > > Which does not imply ∀x S(x) ⇒ M(x), the original claim in question. Nuh-uh! ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddow-names-2012-republican-gop-opponent-karl-rove/598723/69 "2011-10-06T19:59:11Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Oh, say it a few more times, won’t you please? It just gets zingier every time— like the rest of your tiresome, endlessly repeated “gotcha” questions. > > You need a new shtick. Badly. Why isn’t it a legitimate question. Citizens United was about whether or not the government had the right to ban movies critical of candidates running for office. Presumably all the people squealing in anger over the decision support this and think that the FEC should have banned Michael Moore’s Fahrenheit 911, but I don’t. Perhaps you’d be willing to explain why you feel the Supreme Court was wrong to rule that the government can’t ban movies it doesn’t like. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddow-names-2012-republican-gop-opponent-karl-rove/598723/70 "2011-10-06T20:08:52Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > None of the people attacking Citizens United have yet explained why they think the government should be allowed to ban books and movies. > > Would someone please explain why they feel that way. > > Afterall, Citizens United was regarding the banning of a movie. I suppose if the topic were banning books and movies we’d address it. But it’s not. It’s the effect of Citizens United on the elections process. I’m surprised I have to point this out to you. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddow-names-2012-republican-gop-opponent-karl-rove/598723/71 "2011-10-06T20:17:43Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > There are about a dozen lines of debate in this thread, but you can find as much in many BBQ Pit threads, (which is where you will find this thread, next). > > The topic of limits on campaign spending vs limits on free speech is still available, but it will have to be opened as a serious debate instead of a rant in order to stay in Great Debates. > > [/Moderating] I’m not following your objections Tom. I agree there has been a lot snarky responses, but the essential question is being addressed: how can candidates stay unbought when there’s so much money flowing into the political system? I used cites to establish the money is flowing. There has been some well-considered debate along the lines of, “Whitman and Fiorina’s defeats demonstrate that money does not ensure electoral victories” and “people who contribute to politics are/are not getting their money’s worth.” I’ve seen much sloppier debates in Great Debates. I suppose it is difficult to objectively demonstrate that political campaign donations equals political power. But the point can be argued nonetheless, for example, elucidator’s point about the improbability that the wealthy would spend millions on campaign donations if they did not feel they were getting their money’s worth seems a fairly telling point. On edit, I see the thread is already in the pit. Fuck it, then! I hate everybody!!! EVERYBODY!!! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddow-names-2012-republican-gop-opponent-karl-rove/598723/72 "2011-10-06T20:28:37Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > … Fuck it, then! I hate everybody!!! EVERYBODY!!! Now now, they don’t hate you! They mostly don’t know you that well. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddow-names-2012-republican-gop-opponent-karl-rove/598723/73 "2011-10-06T20:37:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > A lecture from you on over use of sarcasm?.. I’m not ragging on you for using sarcasm, **John** , I’m ragging on you for using it so badly. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddow-names-2012-republican-gop-opponent-karl-rove/598723/74 "2011-10-06T21:29:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I’m not ragging on you for using sarcasm, **John** , I’m ragging on you for using it so badly. As I said, physician, heal thyself. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddow-names-2012-republican-gop-opponent-karl-rove/598723/75 "2011-10-06T23:26:34Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I suppose if the topic were banning books and movies we’d address it. But it’s not. It’s the effect of Citizens United on the elections process. I’m surprised I have to point this out to you. Er… Citizens United was about the banning of a movie. If you’re having a hissy fit over Citizens United then presumably you feel that the government had the right to ban Hillary: The Movie. Please explain your reasoning. The alternative is that you’ve never read the decision and are upset about something you don’t understand. Which is it? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddow-names-2012-republican-gop-opponent-karl-rove/598723/76 "2011-10-07T00:19:21Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er… Citizens United was about the banning of a movie. > > If you’re having a hissy fit over Citizens United then presumably you feel that the government had the right to ban Hillary: The Movie. Jesus, get off it already. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddow-names-2012-republican-gop-opponent-karl-rove/598723/77 "2011-10-07T00:35:49Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > Jesus, get off it already. What? That’s the truth. Have you actually read Citizens United? You do realize that it was about a movie that had been effectively banned by McCain-Feingold don’t you? What it does is make it clear limitations can’t be placed on the ability of people to advocate in favor of or against political candidates. When you fine the Sierra Club for handing out leaflets criticizing a Republican Senator’s environmental record, or fine a pro-life group for airing radio ads criticizing a Senator up for election then you are infringing on people’s freedom of speech. Perhaps you don’t like people criticizing candidates you don’t like. Minorities generally don’t like hate filled bigots spewing racist invectives calling for violence against non-whites, but we have to put up with it because of the First Amendment. For decades progressive whites have been lecturing us that we have to tolerate such crap due to the First Amendment. Now many of those same progressive whites are freaking out because their ox is being gored. Sorry guys, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Suck it up. Free speech is free speech for everyone. If we have to deal with the KKK marching through black neighborhoods carrying signs that say things like “FIGHT CRIME! KILL A NIGGER!”, you’ll have to put up with groups you don’t like attacking politicians you do. Frankly, I think you’re still coming out ahead. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddow-names-2012-republican-gop-opponent-karl-rove/598723/78 "2011-10-07T01:36:42Z")
This thread is between **Warraq** and a hard place. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddow-names-2012-republican-gop-opponent-karl-rove/598723/79 "2011-10-07T01:41:51Z")
All this talk about coming out ahead… do we have to sexualize everything in our society? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddow-names-2012-republican-gop-opponent-karl-rove/598723/80 "2011-10-07T01:47:03Z")
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