# Maddow's explanation of Trump's use of "fascist" **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [November 14, 2023, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-explanation-of-trumps-use-of-fascist/993116 "2023-11-14T11:57:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2023, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-explanation-of-trumps-use-of-fascist/993116/41 "2023-11-14T19:11:21Z")
There is a useful way to think about language and tactics, sometimes called “the spectrum of allies.” Define the issue and opponent. Draw a semi circle, with the base at the bottom. Divide the semi-circle into 4-6 equal wedges. Put yourself in the left hand wedge and your opponent in the right hand wedge. Put in other groups in the other wedges, with your nearest potential ally beside your wedge, your opponent’s closest in the wedge next to them. Add other allies on the same principle.of closer to you or your opponent or in the middle. Now think about language and tactics that will move all the wedges except your opponent one wedge closer to you. The aim is to isolate your opponent by bringing your potential allies and your opponent’s allies closer to you, if only into a middle ground of indifference. In political issues and campaigns, I have found this useful in moving people to my side without unduly alienating the opponent’s potential allies and pushing them into his camp. So I would call Trump a fascist in some places and not others, while I believe he pretty much checks all the boxes in Eco’s list. And I avoid arguments that have little chance of moving someone a wedge closer, which saves time and energy for those who can be moved. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2023, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-explanation-of-trumps-use-of-fascist/993116/42 "2023-11-14T19:18:34Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > > [@slicedalone](#): > > > > Makes it easier for him to get his point across. “Look, I called Joey P a fascist, and he didn’t say BOO. That means he knows he is a fascist. And he knows I’m not one.” > > Then what? What’s going to change? The problem is there are a lot of uninformed voters who aren’t committed to either side. And nonsense like this is what they base their votes on. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2023, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-explanation-of-trumps-use-of-fascist/993116/43 "2023-11-21T14:56:57Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The problem is there are a lot of uninformed voters who aren’t committed to either side. This is what blows me away. There is a VERY hard line between Trump, and any reasonable candidate. He freaking drew it, and put up razor wire. How can anyone be unsure of what the hell he is? I guess if you NEVER see any news and are a complete hermit, you might not know who the fascists are here, that’s very difficult in todays world. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2023, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-explanation-of-trumps-use-of-fascist/993116/44 "2023-11-21T15:52:44Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > How can anyone be unsure of what the hell he is? I guess if you NEVER see any news and are a complete hermit, you might not know who the fascists are here, that’s very difficult in todays world. Keeping those people firmly on the right, no matter what they need to be told, is practically Fox’s mission statement. They’ve dug their heels in on the “don’t believe what you see or hear, just believe us” side of the line. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2023, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-explanation-of-trumps-use-of-fascist/993116/45 "2023-11-21T16:24:03Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > Keeping those people firmly on the right, no matter what they need to be told, is practically Fox’s mission statement. > They’ve dug their heels in on the “don’t believe what you see or hear, just believe us” side of the line. Yeah. I have a BIL that is actually quite intelligent, well spoken nice guy and quite well off. He, at least was, a big Trump supporter (see well off and taxes). One time visiting at his house when he and his wife went to church, I turned off the blaring FOX so called ‘news’ channel and put on CNN just for something in the background. Well, that didn’t last, as soon as they got home it went immediately back to FOX. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2023, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-explanation-of-trumps-use-of-fascist/993116/46 "2023-11-21T16:33:56Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > This is what blows me away. There is a VERY hard line between Trump, and any reasonable candidate. He freaking drew it, and put up razor wire. > > How can anyone be unsure of what the hell he is? I guess if you NEVER see any news and are a complete hermit, you might not know who the fascists are here, that’s very difficult in todays world. As I said, these people are uninformed. They hear things but they don’t understand things. They’re hearing all kinds of things about how Joe Biden and the Democrats are traitors who are trying to destroy America by handing over power to black looters who want to kill you and sexual deviants who want to have sex with your children. Fox broadcasts several hours of this every day, along with other right wing media. Somebody who understands what’s going on would realize Fox and the rest of the right wing is lying. They will report the accusations without reporting that there is no evidence to support the accusations. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2023, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-explanation-of-trumps-use-of-fascist/993116/47 "2023-11-21T21:12:09Z")
To be fair, here at the SDMB many of us overuse and misuse the term “fascist”. Right wing populists are not fascists. Sure, several times right wing populism has led to fascism, and you could call it “fascism-lite” or “fascist wannabes”. Neither trump nor even DeSantis are actually fascist- altho I grant you both have the capacity and perhaps desire to become that. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2023, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-explanation-of-trumps-use-of-fascist/993116/48 "2023-11-21T21:31:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Neither trump nor even DeSantis are actually fascist- altho I grant you both have the capacity and perhaps desire to become that. Also, neither one speaks German and neither currently wears a funny little mustache, so that settles that. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2023, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-explanation-of-trumps-use-of-fascist/993116/49 "2023-11-21T21:42:10Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > Also, neither one speaks German and neither currently wears a funny little mustache, so that settles that. Mussolini, Putin, Horthy, Szálasi, Quisling, Franco, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-explanation-of-trumps-use-of-fascist/993116/50 "2023-11-22T00:11:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Neither trump nor even DeSantis are actually fascist- altho I grant you both have the capacity and perhaps desire to become that. Trouble is… a proto-fascist who wants to become a fascist and can become a fascist quite easily… Is pretty freaking hard to distinguish from a “genuine” fascist. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-explanation-of-trumps-use-of-fascist/993116/51 "2023-11-22T00:42:02Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Trouble is… a proto-fascist who wants to become a fascist and can become a fascist quite easily… > > Is pretty freaking hard to distinguish from a “genuine” fascist. True, but trump isnt a dictator just yet. But some people- like the “BIDEN IS TOO OLD” and the third party losers, and other non MAGA hat wearers are working hard to hand the nation over to trump. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-explanation-of-trumps-use-of-fascist/993116/52 "2023-11-22T00:42:04Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > hard to distinguish from a “genuine” fascist. The difference is whether he’s in power or out of power. There is no such thing as an out-of-power fascist, to his defenders anyway. “Trump can’t possibly be a fascist–all he can do is run his mouth, and you libs admit he lies a lot, so maybe it’s all bravado and braggadocio and bullshit.” ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-explanation-of-trumps-use-of-fascist/993116/53 "2023-11-22T00:46:07Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Neither trump nor even DeSantis are actually fascist- So how do you categorize a guy who riles up violence to anti-democratically hold on to power, attempts to invalidate millions of votes, and speaks publicly about his plans for revenge? You just don’t like the way the word fascist sounds? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-explanation-of-trumps-use-of-fascist/993116/54 "2023-11-22T01:03:15Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > So how do you categorize a guy who riles up violence to anti-democratically hold on to power, attempts to invalidate millions of votes, and speaks publicly about his plans for revenge? You didn’t read my post? Right Wing Populist or national Populism. Just like Milei, Boris, Bolsonaro, and also Hitler, Putin, etc etc _before_ they turned into Fascists. > **[Right-Wing Populism - ECPS](https://www.populismstudies.org/Vocabulary/right-wing-populism/)** > > Right-Wing Populism ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-explanation-of-trumps-use-of-fascist/993116/55 "2023-11-22T01:11:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@slicedalone](#): > > > > Also, neither one speaks German and neither currently wears a funny little mustache, so that settles that. > > Mussolini, Putin, Horthy, Szálasi, Quisling, Franco, etc. Okay, Franco’s moustache may not have been as funny as Hitler’s. But he made up for it by having funnier eyebrows. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-explanation-of-trumps-use-of-fascist/993116/56 "2023-11-22T01:17:26Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Okay, Franco’s moustache may not have been as funny as Hitler’s. But he made up for it by having funnier eyebrows. Franco gets points in my book for standing up to Hitler (few did) and keeping Spain out of WW2. Not that he was in any way shape or form a nice guy. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-explanation-of-trumps-use-of-fascist/993116/57 "2023-11-22T01:30:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Franco gets points in my book for standing up to Hitler (few did) and keeping Spain out of WW2. Not that he was in any way shape or form a nice guy. Okay if we’re going to be serious. I don’t really feel Franco “stood up” to Hitler. Franco supported Hitler and sent tens of thousands of Spanish soldiers to fight unofficially for Germany. Franco was just smart enough to hedge his bets on which side would win the war. Which explains why Mussolini died in 1945 and Franco died in 1975. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-explanation-of-trumps-use-of-fascist/993116/58 "2023-11-22T01:59:44Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t really feel Franco “stood up” to Hitler. He flat out refused to have Nazi troops cross Sapin or to join the Axis. Imean, yeah Franco didnt join the Allies, but if he did, Spain was toast. > **[Franco and Hitler: A Meeting and its Consequences](https://kyleorton.co.uk/2021/06/17/franco-hitler-meeting-hendaye/)** > > By Kyle Orton (@KyleWOrton) on 17 June 2021 By the autumn of 1940, the entirety of Western Europe except Spain and Portugal lay under Nazi control, as did much of the Centre and parts of the East: … _The seven-hour meeting between Hitler and General Franco did not go well. Hitler at one stage got up and declared there was no point in continuing the meeting after Franco had insisted that Britain was not beaten and would not be beaten even if the islands were conquered. When Hitler tried to use the moral leverage of the help Germany had given the Nationalists during the Civil War, Franco turned it around on him by making Hitler feel—as he wrote later—“like a Jew”. Hitler told Mussolini after the meeting, “I would rather have three or four teeth extracted than go through that again”._ Again, Franco was a dictator, but he did set up a return to democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-explanation-of-trumps-use-of-fascist/993116/59 "2023-11-22T02:12:57Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > He flat out refused to have Nazi troops cross Sapin or to join the Axis. Imean, yeah Franco didnt join the Allies, but if he did, Spain was toast. Saying Spain only helped Germany with troops and bases but didn’t officially fight alongside Germany as an ally sets the bar really low for “standing up” to Hitler. There were other countries that actually fought against Germany or just stayed neutral and didn’t help either side. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2023, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-explanation-of-trumps-use-of-fascist/993116/60 "2023-11-22T03:55:48Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Saying Spain only helped Germany with troops and bases Many nations sent “volunteers” on both sides. And no, the Nazis were not allowed to have bases in Spain. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-explanation-of-trumps-use-of-fascist/993116.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-explanation-of-trumps-use-of-fascist/993116.md?page=4)