# Maddow's Trump Tax Return announcement **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 15, 2017, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204 "2017-03-15T00:29:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/181 "2017-03-21T03:06:47Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > Out of 239 years that we’ve been a country, yes, it is. Oh, and you think we’ve been filing tax returns in America for 239 years? Gosh, tell me more about history. > [@](#): > > I don’t know if he, personally, ever said that, but his surrogates did. OK, so…you were utterly and completely wrong in your claim that, and I quote: “a person to go along with saying they’re born in Kenya and only later when it’s convenient (and they’re a presidential candidate) to say they weren’t.” Just completely wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. > [@](#): > > I dunno, but do you have two forms? I don’t. Uh, yeah, I do. Like many Americans. Which state were you born in? > [@](#): > > Only a few have forms that are incomplete, or lacking details. Kind of like Trump’s 1040. Do you know what a short form birth certificate is? > [@](#): > > Yes, they were (and this is exactly the point I’m making). I was as interested in Obama’s birth certificate as I am Trump’s taxes - that is, not a whole lot. Out of curiosity I wonder. Why should anyone care how interested you are? What matters is how interested the AMerican people are. And they’re pretty fucking interested. > [@](#): > > But what differentiates that from now is how you react to such a thing. Back then when it’s Obama questions about where he was born it was mocked, criticized, ignored, and used as a tool to question the other sides motivation (hell, even now it’s used as a prerogative by some on the left). Yet you turn around and do the same thing you criticized them of doing then. You’re no better than the people you criticize. In many ways it’s worse - you have the media that supports it. Oh, I’m much better than the people I criticize. For example, I know what a short form birth certificate is. I know that Obama didn’t ever claim to have been born in Kenya. I know that Americans haven’t filed tax returns for the last 239 years. Basically, I’m not ignorant. That makes me better. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/182 "2017-03-21T03:29:36Z")
Where you from, HL? You got the country’s age wrong, you got the income tax info wrong, and this: “I dunno, but do you have two forms? I don’t. Only a few have forms that are incomplete, or lacking details. Kind of like Trump’s 1040.” Makes it sound as if you never filled out an American tax form as your wording is complete gibberish. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/183 "2017-03-21T03:39:14Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Oh, and you think we’ve been filing tax returns in America for 239 years? Gosh, tell me more about history. You tell me. You apparently have a better grasp of the history of the United States. When did we first start paying taxes, and how does that jibe with what I said? > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > OK, so…you were utterly and completely wrong in your claim that, and I quote (about where Obama was born) I don’t see where I was wrong. When he’s selling a book he doesn’t correct the surrogates that say he born in Kenya. When he’s running president, he does. Convenient, in the absence of contradictory evidence. If you have any, please enlighten me. I’m always up for learning. > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Uh, yeah, I do. Like many Americans. Which state were you born in? Iowa. You? > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Do you know what a short form birth certificate is? I do. Do you? Go ahead and explain. I doubt it’s any different than what I said above. One’s abbreviated and the other isn’t. > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Why should anyone care how interested you are? What matters is how interested the AMerican people are. And they’re pretty fucking interested. The American people were interested in Obama’s birth certificate. No? Why is now different than then? > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Oh, I’m much better than the people I criticize. Actually, you’re not. You’re the exact same as those you criticize. Only you (or some on your side) take it to the extreme that you’re morally just and intellectually superior. To those of us who are independent (which I am) it doesn’t make any side better or worse. It’s all the same. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/184 "2017-03-21T03:43:01Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Where you from, HL? You got the country’s age wrong, you got the income tax info wrong: How old is the US in your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/185 "2017-03-21T03:51:45Z")
2017-1789=228 Your number of 239 puts the date at 1778, which no American would ever claim as being the founding date of the country: it’s either 1776 (241 years) or 1789 (228 years). Some, not thinking about it, might answer 1783 (end of Rev War, 234 years). No one would say 1778. 239? ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/186 "2017-03-21T04:10:41Z")
Good lord. We’re splitting hairs over a couple of years? My point was and is that for the majority of that period the tax returns of presidential candidates weren’t released. That’s all I said. And it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/187 "2017-03-21T04:12:04Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > You tell me. You apparently have a better grasp of the history of the United States. When did we first start paying taxes Have you tried googling it? What did google tell you? What sites did you read? > [@](#): > > I don’t see where I was wrong. OK then. > [@](#): > > Actually, you’re not. You’re the exact same as those you criticize. Only you (or some on your side) take it to the extreme that you’re morally just and intellectually superior. Not being ignorant about basic facts is an extreme opinion? ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/188 "2017-03-21T04:12:11Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > Good lord. We’re splitting hairs over a couple of years? > > My point was and is that the for the majority of that period the tax returns of candidates weren’t released. > > That’s all I said. Thanks for sharing. Maybe we’ll rethink the custom. But this time we need to see the returns. It looks like this time might be under subpoena, anyway so no need for us to fight here… ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/189 "2017-03-21T04:14:49Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > Good lord. We’re splitting hairs over a couple of years? > > My point was and is that for the majority of that period the tax returns of presidential candidates weren’t released. > > That’s all I said. And it’s true. When do you think Americans first started filing income tax returns (Hint: try googling it) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/190 "2017-03-21T04:24:36Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > I don’t see where I was wrong. When he’s selling a book he doesn’t correct the surrogates that say he born in Kenya. When he’s running president, he does. How the hell do you come up with the false equivalency that not legitimizing charges in a book is the same as ‘going along with’ the birther fantasies? You want to believe it, is all. Absolutely no basis in fact. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/191 "2017-03-21T04:25:10Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Have you tried googling it? What did google tell you? What sites did you read? It could be more it could be less. We could argue that it started long before we declared our independence (the Boston tea part and all that). It could be argued that it’s shorter. Does it really make a difference in what I was getting at? > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Not being ignorant about basic facts is an extreme opinion? You’re “basic facts” (which I’m curious what you mean by that) are different than others “basic facts”, if I’m understanding your meaning correctly. The fact that you’re side takes the morally authority and intellectually superiority side of things, in my opinion, makes you look more foolish than the other side. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/192 "2017-03-21T04:28:53Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > How the hell do you come up with the false equivalency that not legitimizing charges in a book is the same as ‘going along with’ the birther fantasies? > > You want to believe it, is all. Absolutely no basis in fact. So do you, right? There’s no bases in fact that Trump has lied, misled, or exaggerated his tax returns, are there? Yet you want to believe. And regarding Obama and his book promotion… seriously? Someone’s promoting your work as coming from a person born in Kenya and as the author of the book you don’t say anything to correct it? Come now. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/193 "2017-03-21T04:35:49Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > So do you, right? There’s no bases in fact that Trump has lied, misled, or exaggerated his tax returns, are there? > > Yet you want to believe. > > And regarding Obama and his book promotion… seriously? Someone’s promoting your work as coming from a person born in Kenya and as the author of the book you don’t say anything to correct it? > > Come now. Read this quote from Miriam Goderich: You’re undoubtedly aware of the brouhaha stirred up by Breitbart about the erroneous statement in a client list Acton & Dystel published in 1991 (for circulation within the publishing industry only) that Barack Obama was born in Kenya. This was nothing more than a fact checking error by me — an agency assistant at the time. There was never any information given to us by Obama in any of his correspondence or other communications suggesting in any way that he was born in Kenya and not Hawaii. I hope you can communicate to your readers that this was a simple mistake and nothing more. So a blurb circulated to publishing insiders, which was not seen or reviewed by Obama, said that he was born in Kenya. Figuring this out is a little more difficult than figuring out how old America is, but not really that much more difficult. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/194 "2017-03-21T04:49:11Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > So a blurb circulated to publishing insiders, which was not seen or reviewed by Obama, said that he was born in Kenya. Figuring this out is a little more difficult than figuring out how old America is, but not really that much more difficult. Tell that to Hillary. > **[Fact checking the media — yes, the Clinton machine did start the birther...](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/aug/22/fact-checking-media-yes-clinton-machine-did-start-/)** > > On evaluating whether or not GOP presidential nominee Donald Trump can win over African-American voters after he demanded President Obama show his birth certificate, MSNBC’s Joy Reid didn’t like what one panelist had to say. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/195 "2017-03-21T04:57:24Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > Tell that to Hillary. > > [http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/aug/22/fact-checking-media-yes-clinton-machine-did-start-/](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/aug/22/fact-checking-media-yes-clinton-machine-did-start-/) That article has no relation whatsoever to any of the preceding posts. Also. you shouldn’t get your news from the Washington Times. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/196 "2017-03-21T05:04:20Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > That article has no relation whatsoever to any of the preceding posts. Sure it does. Clinton used it as an attack against Obama. She may not have been the first to bring it up but are you denying she ever did? > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Also. you shouldn’t get your news from the Washington Times. Tell me which news I should get my information from. I’d love to hear. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/197 "2017-03-21T05:11:53Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > Sure it does. Clinton used it as an attack against Obama. She may not have been the first to bring it up but are you denying she ever did? Quote the bit of that article that you think says that. > [@](#): > > Tell me which news I should get my information from. I’d love to hear. Maybe for now start with a basic American history book? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/198 "2017-03-21T05:15:46Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > So do you, right? There’s no bases in fact that Trump has lied, misled, or exaggerated his tax returns, are there? > > Yet you want to believe. > > And regarding Obama and his book promotion… seriously? Someone’s promoting your work as coming from a person born in Kenya and as the author of the book you don’t say anything to correct it? > > Come now. False equivalency #2. Fact: Trump refuses to release his tax returns. Fact: His excuse that he can’t because he’s under an audit is a proven lie. Reasonable and logical conclusion, based on ACTUAL, NOT MANUFACTURED, FACTS: Trump has something to hide. Else why would he not only refuse but lie about it? But wait, there’s more: Fact: A number of Trump associates have been tied to Russia. Fact: Trump and team removed the anti-Russian plank from the Republican Party platform. Fact: At least one Trump associate has provably lied about his connections to Russia, and was fired over it. Fact: Others who have been fired for similar reasons have not been interviewed by the investigation yet, in which they may yet be proven to have lied. A quite logical motivation for the first part above. Your assertion is based on no facts whatsoever, in the face of being presented with actual facts refuting your position. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/199 "2017-03-21T05:29:30Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Quote the bit of that article that you think says that. Since the Washington Times doesn’t work for you, how about this… > **[Birther row began with Hillary Clinton supporters](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/barackobama/8478044/Birther-row-began-with-Hillary-Clinton-supporters.html)** > > The lie that Barack Obama was not born in the US has been fuelled by fringe Republicans — but supporters of Hillary Clinton, now Mr Obama’s Secretary of State, are largely to blame for starting it. I’m not going so far as to say I think she started it, only that she used it (or her supporters at the time) to discredit him. The only point I’m making is this is that it wasn’t strictly a Republican ‘made up’ question. It was questioned by both sides. A lot like Trump and his taxes now. Like I think I said earlier I’m not denying it’s an issue of contention, I’m just not saying one is better than the other. The hypocrisy of the ‘elite’ superior intellect crowd isn’t lost on us “deplorable’s”. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/200 "2017-03-21T05:38:05Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Reasonable and logical conclusion, based on ACTUAL, NOT MANUFACTURED, FACTS: Trump has something to hide. Else why would he not only refuse but lie about it? That’s the metric? Tell us everything we want to know otherwise it’s a lie? We’re right back to why Obama didn’t release his full birth certificate. No? > [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Your assertion is based on no facts whatsoever, in the face of being presented with actual facts refuting your position. Neither are yours, I’m afraid to say. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204.md?page=11)