# Maddow's Trump Tax Return announcement **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 15, 2017, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204 "2017-03-15T00:29:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/161 "2017-03-20T18:41:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > There isn’t any uncertainty. The idea that Trump cheated on his taxes is faith-based, and not subject to falsification. > > It’s the standard approach. > > [ul][li]Assume that Trump (or Romney, back in 2012) cheated on his taxes.[/li][li]If Trump (or Romney) doesn’t prove he didn’t, that proves he’s guilty of cheating on his taxes.[/li][li]Maddow gets hold of an illegally obtained copy of one of Trump’s returns.[/li][li]MS/NBC schedules a whole news program wherein she proves pretty clearly that Trump didn’t cheat on his taxes.[/li][li]Repeat the assumption that Trump cheated on his other tax returns, and try again.[/ul]This is like a conspiracy theory. The lack of evidence proves there really is a conspiracy. Therefore, the more evidence that is discredited, the more that proves the conspiracy.[/li] > Regards, > Shodan I think there might be a difference between 1) didn’t pay any taxes, and 2) cheated on his taxes. ---
**Author:** ![SingleMalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/singlemalt/32/3961_2.png) [@SingleMalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleMalt)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/162 "2017-03-20T19:12:39Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I think there might be a difference between 1) didn’t pay any taxes, and 2) cheated on his taxes. I’m not sure where there was any claim of _cheating_ on Trump’s taxes. The larger concerns are where his income came from, and where he owes money. Without knowing whom he’s beholden to, we can’t predict where his conflicts lie. Where’d the accusation of cheating come from? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/163 "2017-03-20T19:20:09Z")
> [@SingleMalt](#): > > Where’d the accusation of cheating come from? From **Shodan** , who needed an easier target to argue against than the one people are actually making. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/164 "2017-03-20T19:22:48Z")
I doubt if you can figure out who Trump owes money to from looking at his tax forms, even including all schedules. While these schedules sometimes require names of entities, the issue with Trump’s debt (to the extent that there is one - and I’m skeptical) is that many companies of this sort have very obscure ownership which is hard to pin down. To the extent that this is the problem, the tax schedules are not going to shed any light at all. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/165 "2017-03-20T19:24:29Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > There isn’t any uncertainty. The idea that Trump cheated on his taxes is faith-based, and not subject to falsification. (1) As others have noted, I didn’t talk at all about cheating on his taxes. The part that you quoted was in regards to how changes in tax laws that he proposes might benefit him personally. (2) In the paragraph you did not quote, I also discussed the question of what he is trying to hide by not releasing his taxes. It is hardly a conspiracy theory to conclude that there is something that he wants to hide. After all, his excuse for not releasing them is clearly a ruse and he has claimed no higher principle, nor can I imagine what such a higher principle might be, nor is he known to be a person who stands on high moral principles. It is pretty much obvious to anyone who is honest with themselves that he is hiding something. (3) If Donald Trump does not like the various speculations or assumptions that people are making, then it is entirely within his power to refute them. It is only because he is engaging in behavior that flouts tradition and ought to be illegal (by refusing to release his taxes) that we are left to speculate and make assumptions. > [@Damuri Ajashi](#): > > Wait, are you actually saying that the press should “speculate” Are you frikking kidding me? Absolutely, I think it is entirely within the right…and in fact the obligation…of the press to consult with experts and discuss the various possible reasons why Donald Trump is not releasing his taxes and to continually remind the public of this incredible betrayal of the public trust and why it is so important. No action Donald Trump takes should be discussed without reference to what possible hidden motives he might have that we are not privy to. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/166 "2017-03-20T19:43:16Z")
The only thing I’m aware of that anyone is saying is that Trump has something in his tax returns that he doesn’t want the public to see. This is not faith-based, but deductive reasoning. Trump refuses to release his taxes to the public. Doing so would shut up some of his critics, and Trump hates being criticized. It thus makes sense to conclude there’s something he’s hiding. The claim that someone is doing something factual is not faith based. It can be proven or disproven with evidence. And, finally, mocking “faith-based” when you are a Christian seems a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/167 "2017-03-20T19:52:36Z")
I don’t think there’s much in that. I myself don’t share my tax forms and there’s nothing illegal or shady in them. Just not any of anyone’s business. In Trump’s case, I imagine it’s even more than that. There’s virtually nothing that Trump could possibly release that wouldn’t just give rise to further speculation. His tax forms are undoubtedly extremely complicated, with all sorts of tantalizing bits of info such as might be found on a tax form, but without enough detail to conclusively settle anything about any of the myriad negative things people are speculating about. I don’t see anything for him to gain in releasing them. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/168 "2017-03-20T19:55:57Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > Great…So, when he releases his tax bill, I look forward to Trump walking us through his taxes and explaining how his proposed changes to the tax code would not have particularly benefited him in the past nor are likely to in the future. Oh, he is not going to do that? Well, then I think it is only fair that we get to surmise on the basis of what we have been able, no thanks to Trump, to get access to. He’s not entitled to be given the benefit of the doubt when it is his own obstruction that is responsible for the uncertainty. > > Personally, I think the Press was far too “responsible” in not engaging in various speculations about Trump and what might be hiding in his taxes. If they are jumping to unwarranted conclusions, then he has the power to set them straight. If he doesn’t, then let’s speculate until the cows come home. Trump will only releases his taxes when what everyone believes is in them is worse than what is actually in them. It is incumbent on the press, and frankly all of us, to hasten when that occurs. You are simply looking for an excuse to defend Maddow and have a go at Trump. Until we get more detail on his tax proposals(and details of what he can pass through Congress) any conclusion as to the tax benefits to Trump isn’t worth a bucket of warm piss. Maddow and Johnston did come to a conclusion. At no point did they mention the reduction in tax loopholes. Anyone giving Trump a reasonable hearing would have mentioned the previously mentioned closing of tax loopholes. They only considered one part of the proposed tax changes. It was a half assed piece of analysis. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/169 "2017-03-20T20:09:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > There isn’t any uncertainty. The idea that Trump cheated on his taxes is faith-based, and not subject to falsification. > > It’s the standard approach. > > [ul][li]Assume that Trump (or Romney, back in 2012) cheated on his taxes.[/li][li]If Trump (or Romney) doesn’t prove he didn’t, that proves he’s guilty of cheating on his taxes.[/li][li]Maddow gets hold of an illegally obtained copy of one of Trump’s returns.[/li][li]MS/NBC schedules a whole news program wherein she proves pretty clearly that Trump didn’t cheat on his taxes.[/li][li]Repeat the assumption that Trump cheated on his other tax returns, and try again.[/ul]This is like a conspiracy theory. The lack of evidence proves there really is a conspiracy. Therefore, the more evidence that is discredited, the more that proves the conspiracy.[/li] > Regards, > Shodan Nobody is saying he cheated. Nice try. What they are speculating on is the information revealed in the schedules and other items and what they show. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/170 "2017-03-20T20:35:15Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > You are simply looking for an excuse to defend Maddow and have a go at Trump. Until we get more detail on his tax proposals(and details of what he can pass through Congress) any conclusion as to the tax benefits to Trump isn’t worth a bucket of warm piss. Maddow and Johnston did come to a conclusion. At no point did they mention the reduction in tax loopholes. Anyone giving Trump a reasonable hearing would have mentioned the previously mentioned closing of tax loopholes. They only considered one part of the proposed tax changes. It was a half assed piece of analysis. The “moving party” in this is donald who has gone against custom and refused to be transparent about his tax returns, while at the same time acting unstably and suspiciously, both by himself and through his associates. If he hadn’t done this then you might have some point. But without that you are analyzing backwards. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/171 "2017-03-20T23:25:25Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The only thing I’m aware of that anyone is saying is that Trump has something in his tax returns that he doesn’t want the public to see. This is not faith-based, but deductive reasoning. Trump refuses to release his taxes to the public. Doing so would shut up some of his critics, and Trump hates being criticized. It thus makes sense to conclude there’s something he’s hiding. > > The claim that someone is doing something factual is not faith based. It can be proven or disproven with evidence. The exact same could have been said about Obama and his birth certificate, no? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/172 "2017-03-20T23:26:28Z")
[Obama produced the birth certificate, no?](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-produces-his-birth-certificate/2011/04/27/AFFISyxE_story.html) ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/173 "2017-03-20T23:35:53Z")
Maybe in two years Trump will too. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/174 "2017-03-20T23:48:07Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > The exact same could have been said about Obama and his birth certificate, no? Is it typical for presidential candidates to release their long form birth certificates, like it is for tax returns? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2017, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/175 "2017-03-20T23:55:55Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > Maybe in two years Trump will too. Obama actually released his birth certificate in 2008, before he was elected. So…Trump needs a time machine to catch up. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/176 "2017-03-21T00:29:52Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Is it typical for presidential candidates to release their long form birth certificates, like it is for tax returns? Neither are required, and I’m sure you know that. It’s only in the last forty years that candidates have released their tax returns. It’s a relatively new phenomenon. What isn’t typical is a person to go along with saying they’re born in Kenya and only later when it’s convenient (and they’re a presidential candidate) to say they weren’t. > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Obama actually released his birth certificate in 2008, before he was elected. The short form. Kind of like Trump and his ‘short form’ taxes. Neither did (or is doing) much to quell the opposition. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/177 "2017-03-21T01:59:11Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > Neither are required, and I’m sure you know that. It’s only in the last forty years that candidates have released their tax returns. It’s a relatively new phenomenon. Only 40 years!? Why, that’s no time at all. > [@](#): > > What isn’t typical is a person to go along with saying they’re born in Kenya and only later when it’s convenient (and they’re a presidential candidate) to say they weren’t. Cite that Obama said he was born in Kenya. > [@](#): > > The short form. Oh, you mean the same form that everyone has? Weren’t these stupid arguments eight years ago? ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/178 "2017-03-21T02:24:23Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > Kind of like Trump and his ‘short form’ taxes. Trump didn’t release any form of his taxes, unless you assume he is the one who leaked the 2005 1040 and/or 1995 NY State Form. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/179 "2017-03-21T02:49:13Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Only 40 years!? Why, that’s no time at all. Out of 239 years that we’ve been a country, yes, it is. > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Cite that Obama said he was born in Kenya. I don’t know if he, personally, ever said that, but his surrogates did. > **[Did Obama's Literary Agent Say He Was Born in Kenya?](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/promotional-booklet/)** > > A 1991 literary promotional booklet identified Barack Obama as having been born in Kenya. > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Oh, you mean the same form that everyone has? I dunno, but do you have two forms? I don’t. Only a few have forms that are incomplete, or lacking details. Kind of like Trump’s 1040. But it doesn’t stop you from wanting more. Like back then. > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Weren’t these stupid arguments eight years ago? Yes, they were (and this is exactly the point I’m making). I was as interested in Obama’s birth certificate as I am Trump’s taxes - that is, not a whole lot. Out of curiosity I wonder. But what differentiates that from now is how you react to such a thing. Back then when it’s Obama questions about where he was born it was mocked, criticized, ignored, and used as a tool to question the other sides motivation (hell, even now it’s used as a prerogative by some on the left). Yet you turn around and do the same thing you criticized them of doing then. You’re no better than the people you criticize. In many ways it’s worse - you have the media that supports it. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204/180 "2017-03-21T02:52:36Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > Trump didn’t release any form of his taxes, unless you assume he is the one who leaked the 2005 1040 and/or 1995 NY State Form. A point without much meaning, in my opinion. They’re still out there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/maddows-trump-tax-return-announcement/782204.md?page=10)