# Madison Cawthorn, controversial Republican Congressman from North Carolina, has lost the primary election **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 18, 2022, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madison-cawthorn-controversial-republican-congressman-from-north-carolina-has-lost-the-primary-election/964616 "2022-05-18T14:55:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madison-cawthorn-controversial-republican-congressman-from-north-carolina-has-lost-the-primary-election/964616/201 "2022-06-15T21:14:32Z")
Didn’t someone (Lindsey Graham?) say that if Cruz was shot on the floor of the Senate, and the murder trial jury was made up of Senator’s, there would be chance of a conviction? ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madison-cawthorn-controversial-republican-congressman-from-north-carolina-has-lost-the-primary-election/964616/202 "2022-06-15T21:18:36Z")
[“If you killed Ted Cruz on the floor of the Senate, and the trial was in the Senate, nobody would convict you,” the former presidential candidate said at the Washington Press Club Foundation’s 72nd Congressional Dinner, referencing the Texas senator’s unpopular reputation on Capitol Hill.](https://www.cnn.com/2016/02/26/politics/lindsey-graham-ted-cruz-dinner/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madison-cawthorn-controversial-republican-congressman-from-north-carolina-has-lost-the-primary-election/964616/203 "2022-06-15T21:30:56Z")
> [@ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness](#): > > My understanding of the PAC targeting Cawthorn was his cocaine orgy nuttery, history of blatant easily-verified lying and attempted district switching flip flopping made him a liability with the possibility of causing the district to flip to blue. So the Rs brought him down to put in a more “traditional” Republican to improve their chances of holding the seat. Nope–[American Muckrakers PAC](https://www.opensecrets.org/outsidespending/contrib.php?cmte=C00776062&cycle=2022) has as its largest donor the Moe Davis for Congress campaign, a Democratic campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madison-cawthorn-controversial-republican-congressman-from-north-carolina-has-lost-the-primary-election/964616/204 "2022-06-15T22:04:44Z")
Moe Davis was Cawthorn’s 2020 dem opponent in the general for those not in the know. Here’s a Cawthorn ad about retired USAF colonel Moe Davis… https://player.vimeo.com/video/476953949?h=bd970a4fab&app_id=122963 I can see why he might hold a grudge. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madison-cawthorn-controversial-republican-congressman-from-north-carolina-has-lost-the-primary-election/964616/205 "2022-06-16T13:19:13Z")
Boebert’s move: a Defamation lawsuit: > **[Lauren Boebert to file defamation lawsuit against PAC claiming that she was...](https://www.alternet.org/2022/06/lauren-boebert-defamation-lawsuit-pac)** > > Republican Rep. Lauren Boebert of Colorado told Fox News on Wednesday she intended to take legal action against the political action committee widely credited with making Madison Cawthorn the youngest member of Congress to lose a primary.Following... Which is cool. The PAC will either have to put up or shut up ($$$). If they actually have compelling evidence for their allegations, then they’ll probably prevail against a motion for summary judgment. If that happens … discovery could be very interesting. It isn’t hard to imagine the kind of supporting evidence that might back these kinds of allegations, and ISTM that the bar is probably something like “substantially true” or “more likely than not true,” rather than the PAC having to have every single detail 100% correct. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madison-cawthorn-controversial-republican-congressman-from-north-carolina-has-lost-the-primary-election/964616/206 "2022-06-16T13:32:48Z")
Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t there a court case that (roughly) found that falsehoods in the political arena were allowed? ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madison-cawthorn-controversial-republican-congressman-from-north-carolina-has-lost-the-primary-election/964616/207 "2022-06-16T13:38:58Z")
It seems like the difference is that public figures have to show actual malice in order to prevail in a libel case: > **[Public Figures and Officials](https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/public-figures-and-officials/)** > > To promote First Amendment freedom of speech, libel plaintiffs who are public figures or officials must show a publisher acted with actual malice to collect damages. > [@](#): > > **Public figures and officials must show actual malice** > When it comes to printed defamation (libel), courts have ruled that public figures, including government officials, have the burden of proving that defendants libeled them with actual malice. > > In New York Times Co. v. Sullivan (1964), a case involving an Alabama official’s attempt to collect for false statements published in a 1960 civil rights advertisement, the Supreme Court reversed the libel award because the plaintiff had not established that “actual malice” motivated the inaccurate descriptions. > > With this standard, a public official must show that the defendant made a libelous statement with “knowledge that it was false or with reckless disregard of whether it was false or not.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madison-cawthorn-controversial-republican-congressman-from-north-carolina-has-lost-the-primary-election/964616/208 "2022-06-16T13:40:26Z")
I have to wonder about the wisdom of a defamation lawsuit. That’d be a civil suit, which puts the bar at around 50%, not the “beyond reasonable doubt” of a criminal case. But that nuance is likely to be lost on the public consciousness: If the headlines say “Boebert loses defamation lawsuit”, then the public is likely to interpret that as “allegations proven true in court”. Which means that a sensible person really doesn’t want to go to court over something like this, unless they’re very confident that they can win, which would be most likely to happen if the allegations were, in fact, false. But of course, what a sensible person would do tells us nothing at all about what Boebert would do. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madison-cawthorn-controversial-republican-congressman-from-north-carolina-has-lost-the-primary-election/964616/209 "2022-06-16T14:13:29Z")
OTOH it could just be that unlike the case with Cawthorn, where he himself made AND paid for the rope and tied it around his neck, this could be something where there IS a slander case to be argued. Don’t be blinded by burning hatred. And moreover, something we may be missing is that for this group of voters, the expectation of the politician is _to announce she will fight_ . She “wins” by just saying she will fight. It’s the Trump vision: I don’t care if it’s moot or bullshit I need to be seen fighting. As someone else mentioned, we had a perfectly provable issue with her campaign reimbursements, but of course someone “needs” to bring forth something extra salacious. Allowing her to take on the role of a victim. … BTW the “hypocrite card” IMO doesn’t work against the Right — they believe “do as I say, not as I do” IS a valid way to teach morals. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madison-cawthorn-controversial-republican-congressman-from-north-carolina-has-lost-the-primary-election/964616/210 "2022-06-16T14:27:05Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > OTOH it could just be that unlike the case with Cawthorn, where he himself made AND paid for the rope and tied it around his neck, this could be something where there IS a slander case to be argued. Don’t be blinded by burning hatred. Right; if she were sensible, then her bringing legal action against this claim would appear to suggest that the claims are false. Since it’s Boebert we’re talking about, that argument doesn’t apply, which means that we can’t judge whether the claims are true or false. On the other hand… > [@JRDelirious](#): > > And moreover, something we may be missing is that for this group of voters, the expectation of the politician is _to announce she will fight_ . She “wins” by just saying she will fight. We also can’t draw any such conclusion from a statement that she will sue, without the actual lawsuit. And in fact, a statement that she will sue, followed by no lawsuit, suggests that the claims are more likely to be true, because if they weren’t, she’d actually be fighting them instead of talking about fighting them. Or, again, it might not mean anything, because she’s an idiot, and maybe she can’t figure out the next step of a lawsuit after the complaining-on-Twitter part. Of course, if this does actually go to court, then both sides will present evidence, and we can then decide based on whatever that evidence is. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madison-cawthorn-controversial-republican-congressman-from-north-carolina-has-lost-the-primary-election/964616/211 "2022-06-16T14:31:38Z")
_WE_ can’t. OTOH _her voters_ , being the kind who’d vote for her, may think she’s just too tired of winning so much, a-la Trump ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madison-cawthorn-controversial-republican-congressman-from-north-carolina-has-lost-the-primary-election/964616/212 "2022-06-16T14:48:28Z")
Sometimes (see: Trump), the game is as simple as pounding your fists on the table and threatening litigation just long enough for the next local, regional, national, or international story to usurp the news cycle. Trump’s entire presidency was a Gish gallop. That wasn’t lost on his supporters. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madison-cawthorn-controversial-republican-congressman-from-north-carolina-has-lost-the-primary-election/964616/213 "2022-06-16T14:52:37Z")
I half expect her to stop denying the abortion allegations and pivot to “I was tricked by liberal lies into killing my babies”. ---
**Author:** ![SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19adc/32.png) [@SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpacemanSpiff_II)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madison-cawthorn-controversial-republican-congressman-from-north-carolina-has-lost-the-primary-election/964616/214 "2022-06-16T15:23:58Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And in fact, a statement that she will sue, followed by no lawsuit, suggests that the claims are more likely to be true, because if they weren’t, she’d actually be fighting them instead of talking about fighting them. I think a lot of public figures threaten to sue, but then when they speak to an actual lawyer, they find out that as a public figure the bar is so high for them to prevail that it’s not worthwhile and possibly counterproductive. It’s remarkable to the extent that the public at large seems to be of the mindset that “if you’re right that the allegations are false then let’s see you sue”, even though it’s been long established and well publicized that this doesn’t work. (The recent Palin trial being one example.) Really, it’s kind of a conundrum for public figures. If you don’t sue, then people say “if you were saying the truth then you would sue”, but if you sue then you’re very apt to lose based on the “actual malice” standard even if you prove your case as to the facts of the allegations, and the public can then say “see, he/she sued and lost”. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madison-cawthorn-controversial-republican-congressman-from-north-carolina-has-lost-the-primary-election/964616/215 "2022-06-16T16:04:25Z")
It’s similar to “only guilty people need lawyers.” ---
**Author:** ![SunUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SunUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunUp)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madison-cawthorn-controversial-republican-congressman-from-north-carolina-has-lost-the-primary-election/964616/216 "2022-06-16T17:14:02Z")
> [@SpacemanSpiff\_II](#): > > I think a lot of public figures threaten to sue, but then when they speak to an actual lawyer, they find out that as a public figure the bar is so high for them to prevail that it’s not worthwhile and possibly counterproductive. At least, that’s true for the moment under _Sullivan_. Thomas and Gorsuch have both questioned _Sullivan_ in the recent past; perhaps Boebert (or some lawyer who has her ear) thinks she can put up a challenge to the standard of the current law. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madison-cawthorn-controversial-republican-congressman-from-north-carolina-has-lost-the-primary-election/964616/217 "2022-06-16T18:42:51Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > I half expect her to stop denying the abortion allegations and pivot to “I was tricked by liberal lies into killing my babies”. She may yet, if the allegations are true. Either way, I think we’re going to start seeing a lot more public revelations about secret abortions among vocally anti-abortion politicians and their immediate families. For a long time, “anti-abortion” hypocrites got away with the inconsistency of denouncing abortion as murder in public while giving their own circles a pass for having discreet abortions in private, because they were protected by protocols and principles about patient confidentiality. But if they’re really going to impose their abortion-is-murder stance on other people legislatively, I think they’re going to face much sharper scrutiny and much less tolerance for their hypocrisy when they assume that that stance doesn’t always have to apply to them. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madison-cawthorn-controversial-republican-congressman-from-north-carolina-has-lost-the-primary-election/964616/218 "2022-06-16T19:04:15Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But if they’re really going to impose their abortion-is-murder stance on other people legislatively, I think they’re going to face much sharper scrutiny and much less tolerance for their hypocrisy when they assume that that stance doesn’t always have to apply to them. I’d really like this to be true, but do not for a moment consider it likely. Again, if I had to bet, I think the SCOTUS will say there’s no constitutional protection for abortion, but leave it to the states to govern themselves. And those of sufficient wealth / influence in Republican/Christian conservative circles will still afford themselves of abortion for themselves/their family in abortion allowing states, while denouncing it to high heavens. And if they get _caught_ they’ll just continue the ‘fake news’ narrative, or alternately, go with what @Ann_Hedonia suggested, or the classic ‘the devil made me do it’ which they’ve used for getting caught in homosexual relationships, theft from their flock, or any other number of issues. Even people who don’t believe their hypocrisy for a second will let it pass as long as they’re on the same side as the last few years have shown. And since their news bubble will NEVER bring it up, most of the people that might care will never hear about it. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madison-cawthorn-controversial-republican-congressman-from-north-carolina-has-lost-the-primary-election/964616/219 "2022-06-16T23:58:28Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > . . . If the headlines say “Boebert loses defamation lawsuit”, then the public is likely to interpret that as “allegations proven true in court”. > > Which means that a sensible person really doesn’t want to go to court over something like this, unless they’re very confident that they can win, . . . Boebert’s voters won’t care a whit about this, and she knows it. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2022, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madison-cawthorn-controversial-republican-congressman-from-north-carolina-has-lost-the-primary-election/964616/220 "2022-06-17T02:46:41Z")
And the Reps ragged AOC for being a bartender 😀 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madison-cawthorn-controversial-republican-congressman-from-north-carolina-has-lost-the-primary-election/964616.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madison-cawthorn-controversial-republican-congressman-from-north-carolina-has-lost-the-primary-election/964616.md?page=12)