# "Madmen" looks awful because John Hamm is terrible **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 31, 2014, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madmen-looks-awful-because-john-hamm-is-terrible/708592 "2014-12-31T04:45:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madmen-looks-awful-because-john-hamm-is-terrible/708592/81 "2015-01-01T03:46:35Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Please respond to post #69. You know, the one that showed everyone how inane your posting has been in this thread. There’s not much to respond to. I was polite, in my original response, _to the person._ There seems to be an unspoken presumption at work that insulting a show is the same as being nasty to a human being and deserves the kind of pile-on I’ve received. I don’t agree. I don’t care even if the person has made mistakes or is “ignorant” as some here have asserted. Respond if you feel like it, reject the person’s opinion if you feel like it, but be polite to the person him/herself. Whether people do so or not is a matter of board culture. If you think this thread and how people have behaved in it is a credit to the SDMB, I must respectfully disagree with you. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madmen-looks-awful-because-john-hamm-is-terrible/708592/82 "2015-01-01T03:50:28Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > There’s not much to respond to. I was polite, in my original response, _to the person._ > > There seems to be an unspoken presumption at work that insulting a show is the same as being nasty to a human being and deserves the kind of pile-on I’ve received. I don’t agree. I don’t care even if the person has made mistakes or is “ignorant” as some here have asserted. Respond if you feel like it, reject the person’s opinion if you feel like it, but be polite to the person him/herself. > > Whether people do so or not is a matter of board culture. If you think this thread and how people have behaved in it is a credit to the SDMB, I must respectfully disagree with you. The person did not find you polite. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madmen-looks-awful-because-john-hamm-is-terrible/708592/83 "2015-01-01T03:54:33Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Ok I’ll try, I watched several episodes of the show in the early seasons and didn’t like it. > > Don is an unlikable prick, I didn’t even care about the false identity thing he was just unlikable. His wife is a Terminator, who is also paradoxically childish and immature while lacking human responses. It is painful to watch their “parenting”. > > His boss is impossibly suave and hipster, did I tell you about the time I became the chieftan of a tribe in Papua New Guinea? Hah that was a lark, I wasn’t even supposed to be there I got shipwrecked on my way to pleasure the daughter of a Sultan, true story! > > The past the show depicts is impossibly sanitized, there should be racial slurs and faggot and cocksucker in the dialogue for almost every episode. Lots of uncomfortable spousal abuse too. > When the gay guy comes out they really downplayed the actual reception he would have received, I can remember people saying gays deserved execution in the late 80s-90s! > > There are all these sophisticated independent gorgeous women, whose goal in life is Don’s dick. I got so tired of a constant parade of hot modern women for Don to mount. > > I basically hated the characters with a burning passion, except Peggy but her arc was so obvious it felt manipulative. And found the show both sanitized and over sexed. > > Come at me bros! As said, you actually watched it and had an opinion, nothing wrong with that at all. However, I’d point out that both Don and the “suave and hipster” boss (Roger) both get their comeuppances if you continue watching, for some of the reasons you’ve pointed out. Oh, and Roger does a song in blackface at some point during the show. I think they start to get into the race angle a little bit more as the show as already established. They likely held back early on due to not knowing if it would deep six the show. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madmen-looks-awful-because-john-hamm-is-terrible/708592/84 "2015-01-01T03:55:36Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > The person did not find you polite. In what way was I not polite to you? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madmen-looks-awful-because-john-hamm-is-terrible/708592/85 "2015-01-01T04:17:50Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > In what way was I not polite to you? You’ve got to be kidding. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madmen-looks-awful-because-john-hamm-is-terrible/708592/86 "2015-01-01T04:18:34Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > You’ve got to be kidding. I said nothing nasty to you at all. Any negativity was directed toward the show. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madmen-looks-awful-because-john-hamm-is-terrible/708592/87 "2015-01-01T04:58:29Z")
You criticized the show in a way that was utterly dismissive of my opinion and showed little respect. If you can’t see that, I’m no help to you. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madmen-looks-awful-because-john-hamm-is-terrible/708592/88 "2015-01-01T07:06:24Z")
> [@grude](#): > > When the gay guy comes out they really downplayed the actual reception he would have received, I can remember people saying gays deserved execution in the late 80s-90s! Sal didn’t “come out”, Don found out about him and kept it secret. But when it affected the Lucky Strikes account, Don was quick to throw Sal under the bus and for all his earlier discretion still muttered a “You people…”. In today’s world, Sal would have been seen as the victim with the Lucky Strikes guy harassing and extorting him. In Don’s eyes, it was weirdo homosexual perversion costing Sterling Cooper money and Sal got fired. But another thing to keep in mind is that Sterling Cooper isn’t all of 1960’s America, it’s an advertising agency in New York. So it’s possible for a guy to be gay (like the contract artist Kurt) and have the reaction be “Hey, that European artist is a fruity guy” instead of “Let’s run him up a rope”. If Kurt was expressing his sexuality in a blue collar bar instead of a cosmopolitan office filled with artistic types, the reaction would be very different. You can’t say “well, the guys in Sterling Cooper didn’t act the way guys in an Alabama truck stop diner would have acted so it must be all wrong”. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madmen-looks-awful-because-john-hamm-is-terrible/708592/89 "2015-01-01T16:56:48Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > I agree that it’s a problem that more people haven’t taken a position against the show. That leads to a pile-on in any case and is never fun in any kind of Dope thread. I disagree. Pile-ons are fun for almost everyone involved. **grude** made some reasonable points, several of which I actually agree with to some extent, but I like the show anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madmen-looks-awful-because-john-hamm-is-terrible/708592/90 "2015-01-01T19:13:20Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I disagree. Pile-ons are fun for almost everyone involved. For a certain type of Net denizen, which I will not characterize beyond pointing out that many can be found in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madmen-looks-awful-because-john-hamm-is-terrible/708592/91 "2015-01-01T19:15:26Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > You criticized the show in a way that was utterly dismissive of my opinion and showed little respect. If you can’t see that, I’m no help to you. And if I you think I was being directly disrespectful to _you,_ then I can’t help you either. I even made the comment, “We can disagree like gentlemen,” to soften what I was saying. If that doesn’t count for anything, then you are just willfully trying to see thing in the worst light, which of course everyone in the pile-on has done. Hope it’s been fun for you! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madmen-looks-awful-because-john-hamm-is-terrible/708592/92 "2015-01-01T19:21:38Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > I agree that it’s a problem that more people haven’t taken a position against the show. That leads to a pile-on in any case and is never fun in any kind of Dope thread. It’s one of the risks one takes. > > However, I disagree that I can’t support my argument. I’ve seen a couple clips. To me, they totally didn’t work. Is that a sample size and level of experience enough for a media critic to write a column giving the show a big thumbs down? No way. I thought it was enough to start a discussion on this message board. > > A nominally plausible–yet uninteresting–response to my OP is to say I haven’t seen enough and point out my mistakes. Haw haw haw! Y’all “win.” But has it made for an thrilling discussion? I think not. > > I think there is a kind of “critical mass” issue in Cafe Society, however. For example, I posted positively on the movie _Divergent_, was the first to post any kind of thread on the film, and barely anyone showed up. So maybe in the case of _Mad Men_ as well, there just aren’t enough people participating in the forum to make this kind of post work. Live and learn. Why not try to watch the first episode and see what you think? I’d be interested in hearing your opinion after watching the whole first episode. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madmen-looks-awful-because-john-hamm-is-terrible/708592/93 "2015-01-01T19:33:35Z")
Aeschines, what reaction did you _think_ you were going to get when you started this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madmen-looks-awful-because-john-hamm-is-terrible/708592/94 "2015-01-01T19:39:07Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I’d be curious to hear from someone who was an adult in the 1960s, if Jon Hamm is really that off from what people in NYC in 1968 were really like? I was born in 1951. My father was just a few years older than Dick Whitman. I found nothing unnatural in Hamm’s speech patterns. And Rex Reed was not typical of the time at the time. Hef has a midWestern accent, and is not all that natural on TV - not like someone in a normal conversation. So I don’t see what the clip proves. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madmen-looks-awful-because-john-hamm-is-terrible/708592/95 "2015-01-01T19:52:24Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I was born in 1951. My father was just a few years older than Dick Whitman. I found nothing unnatural in Hamm’s speech patterns. > And Rex Reed was not typical of the time at the time. Hef has a midWestern accent, and is not all that natural on TV - not like someone in a normal conversation. So I don’t see what the clip proves. I’m about four years younger than “Peggy.” I find everything about the show stunningly authentic. Stuff I haven’t thought about for years flies up in every episode and smacks me in the face…some in good ways and some in bad ways. I have a friend from high school who is one year older than me, and we discuss every episode afterwards, both of us reeling from the speech, the sets, the clothes, the attitudes, especially toward women. We were both raised Catholic, so Peggy’s family situation hits home. The series is so realistic that it’s almost painful to watch. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madmen-looks-awful-because-john-hamm-is-terrible/708592/96 "2015-01-01T19:52:26Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Board culture. It’s a thing. Which you apparently still don’t understand, after 11 years. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madmen-looks-awful-because-john-hamm-is-terrible/708592/97 "2015-01-01T19:55:17Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > And if I you think I was being directly disrespectful to _you,_ then I can’t help you either. I even made the comment, “We can disagree like gentlemen,” to soften what I was saying. The fact that you made an effort to “soften” what you were saying means you realized that you were being disrespectful. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madmen-looks-awful-because-john-hamm-is-terrible/708592/98 "2015-01-01T21:45:52Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > I originally said we could disagree like gentle(wo)men. > > I understand that intelligent people like this show. I understand why you like it, and the reasons make perfect sense. It’s interesting that you claimed you started this thread because you wanted a discussion, but when presented with a differing opinion, instead of discussing the show, you dismissed her opinion with, “Let’s agree to disagree!” That’s not how discussions work. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madmen-looks-awful-because-john-hamm-is-terrible/708592/99 "2015-01-01T22:52:48Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Which you apparently still don’t understand, after 11 years. Oh I think there are different cultures in the different forums. I get along in IMHO just fine. Nice group of people. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madmen-looks-awful-because-john-hamm-is-terrible/708592/100 "2015-01-01T22:55:01Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > The fact that you made an effort to “soften” what you were saying means you realized that you were being disrespectful. Riiight. And if I had made an even bigger effort to be nice, then that would mean I was being _really_ terrible! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madmen-looks-awful-because-john-hamm-is-terrible/708592.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madmen-looks-awful-because-john-hamm-is-terrible/708592.md?page=6)