# Madoff's Sentence **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2009, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madoffs-sentence/500717 "2009-06-23T14:43:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madoffs-sentence/500717/21 "2009-06-24T22:48:23Z")
> [@villa](#): > > If deterrence is your aim, do you think the type of person likely to commit high level investment fraud is going to be significantly more deterred by the possibility of a 150 year sentence as opposed to a 12 year one? > > I mean it is possible, I just don’t think it likely. Yes, steal BILLIONS on the off chance I’ll go the white collar prison for 12 years max? I might risk that. Literally life for it? Much less of a chance. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madoffs-sentence/500717/22 "2009-06-25T01:34:24Z")
Although Madoff stole a lot of money, he didn’t steal billions and billions of dollars. If you discover that your original investment fund of $10 M that’s been with Madoff for 15 years which he had formerly claimed to be worth $30 M via the magic of his extraordinary and consistent returns and you’re only able to recover $8 M of it, has Madoff really stolen $2 M or $22 M dollars? Obviously one has to consider the opportunity cost of having your $10 M stuck in a cash account rather than a more stable investment fund, but I would shy away from the claim that he “stole” $22 M. Obviously we’re _still_ unwinding the whole enterprise, but I don’t think Madoff stole even a tenth of the value that apparently suddenly disappeared when the fraud was uncovered. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madoffs-sentence/500717/23 "2009-06-25T01:51:41Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > Obviously we’re _still_ unwinding the whole enterprise, but I don’t think Madoff stole even a tenth of the value that apparently suddenly disappeared when the fraud was uncovered. What was his take home salary and perks over ALL these years? It may not be billions, but I would not be surpised if its hundreds of millions. Given what he was running was definitely a scam, I’d say ALL those salary and perk dollars WERE stolen. And if even billions werent technically stolen. Telling people they have X money in the bank when they really have Y (due to your outright lying) it certainly is some sort of virtual and still damn wrong theft IMO. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madoffs-sentence/500717/24 "2009-06-25T04:55:50Z")
He bought yachts for wife and kid 11.5 mill The boat crew,cooks and waitstaff were on company payroll 4.5 miil to wives real estate co 9.0 mill to brother 6.5 mill to brother to buy Nantucket property 4.5 mill for sons NYC apartment Wife was on corporate payroll and may have never done any work. He had several homes and lived the high life. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madoffs-sentence/500717/25 "2009-06-25T05:46:43Z")
IIRC, the lives of 911 victims were valued at around $7 million. How many lives worth of money can we prove Madoff stole? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madoffs-sentence/500717/26 "2009-06-25T13:47:59Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > Although Madoff stole a lot of money, he didn’t steal billions and billions of dollars. > > If you discover that your original investment fund of $10 M that’s been with Madoff for 15 years which he had formerly claimed to be worth $30 M via the magic of his extraordinary and consistent returns and you’re only able to recover $8 M of it, has Madoff really stolen $2 M or $22 M dollars? Obviously one has to consider the opportunity cost of having your $10 M stuck in a cash account rather than a more stable investment fund, but I would shy away from the claim that he “stole” $22 M. > > Obviously we’re _still_ unwinding the whole enterprise, but I don’t think Madoff stole even a tenth of the value that apparently suddenly disappeared when the fraud was uncovered. Doesn’t work that simply. Often money like this is considered an asset. So, while it is not in your pocket various banks may see it that way and extend you credit with the assumption you have assets to back it up. When that disappears those banks may all of a sudden decide you are a greater credit risk than previously assumed. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madoffs-sentence/500717/27 "2009-06-25T22:04:44Z")
I don’t want Madoff in jail-that we we will be supporting him. I’d rather he be reduced to poverty, and have to work bagging groceries. Seize all his assets, and let him experience the harm he inflicted on his investors/dupes. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2009, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madoffs-sentence/500717/28 "2009-06-26T00:49:20Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Doesn’t work that simply. …When that disappears those banks may all of a sudden decide you are a greater credit risk than previously assumed. So? If anything, the appearance of greater financial security to lenders decreased that person’s borrowing costs. How does that further victimize Madoff’s victims? Look, I’m not condoning what he did or arguing that he doesn’t deserve a hefty prison sentence for his fraud, just pointing out that he didn’t actually steal assets in the amount of his claimed assets under management. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2009, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madoffs-sentence/500717/29 "2009-06-26T16:10:50Z")
Hey, come on! It was his first offense! ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madoffs-sentence/500717/30 "2009-06-26T17:26:31Z")
“I think I’ll steal 10 billion dollars. After all, I’ll only get 10 years in prison if I’m caught.” “You fool! The penalty for stealing 10 billion dollars is 20 years in prison!” “Oh shit! Forget it then!” Whether the penalty is 10 years or 20 years isn’t the issue. Whether the criminal thinks he’ll get caught is the issue. And doubling the prison term to make it less worthwhile to steal vast sums of money seems silly. You think doubling the prison term will halve the number of embezzlements? The scale isn’t linear. Getting caught and exposed as a fraud is 93.7% of the deterrent. The length of the jail term is only 6.3%. If you want to deter the next Bernie Madoff, try working harder to catch more embezzlers rather than more harshly punishing the few you do catch. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madoffs-sentence/500717/31 "2009-06-26T17:44:35Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Whether the penalty is 10 years or 20 years isn’t the issue. . IMO 10 years vs life or nearly that certainly WOULD make a difference, at least for some decent fraction of the would be bad guys. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madoffs-sentence/500717/32 "2009-06-26T18:03:09Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > IMO 10 years vs life or nearly that certainly WOULD make a difference, at least for some decent fraction of the would be bad guys. I agree - it’s mostly psychological, and there _is_ a psychological difference between “some years in prison”, “the rest of my _life_ in prison”, and “so many years in prison my _great-grandkids_ would die in there”. I vote we give him the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madoffs-sentence/500717/33 "2009-06-26T20:31:14Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > How about hard labor? What about it? I am asuming that the typical banker is going to end up someone’s girlfriend or punching bag in jail. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madoffs-sentence/500717/34 "2009-06-26T20:35:52Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > Although Madoff stole a lot of money, he didn’t steal billions and billions of dollars. > > If you discover that your original investment fund of $10 M that’s been with Madoff for 15 years which he had formerly claimed to be worth $30 M via the magic of his extraordinary and consistent returns and you’re only able to recover $8 M of it, has Madoff really stolen $2 M or $22 M dollars? Obviously one has to consider the opportunity cost of having your $10 M stuck in a cash account rather than a more stable investment fund, but I would shy away from the claim that he “stole” $22 M. > > Obviously we’re _still_ unwinding the whole enterprise, but I don’t think Madoff stole even a tenth of the value that apparently suddenly disappeared when the fraud was uncovered. There is 50 billion of missing money. I am pretty sure that his investors are getting less than 10% of their money back. You think that all of that is interest that Madoff claimed to earn for his investor but didn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madoffs-sentence/500717/35 "2009-06-26T20:38:48Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I don’t want Madoff in jail-that we we will be supporting him. I’d rather he be reduced to poverty, and have to work bagging groceries. Seize all his assets, and let him experience the harm he inflicted on his investors/dupes. No you impoverish his wife and kids (the ones who were involved in his company) and you make THEM bag groceries, you put Madoff in jail forever plus 100 years. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madoffs-sentence/500717/36 "2009-06-26T20:39:49Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > What was his take home salary and perks over ALL these years? It may not be billions, but I would not be surpised if its hundreds of millions. > > Given what he was running was definitely a scam, I’d say ALL those salary and perk dollars WERE stolen. > > And if even billions werent technically stolen. Telling people they have X money in the bank when they really have Y (due to your outright lying) it certainly is some sort of virtual and still damn wrong theft IMO. He earned billions in salary and bonus (he actually got 20% of all reported gains). ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madoffs-sentence/500717/37 "2009-06-26T20:43:19Z")
I could commit investment fraud if I wanted to, and probably get away with it too. The reason I don’t is because it’s self evidendly immoral. I agree with villa that, beyond a certain point, the magnitude of the sentence will have any no deterrent value whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madoffs-sentence/500717/38 "2009-06-26T20:46:12Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > “I think I’ll steal 10 billion dollars. After all, I’ll only get 10 years in prison if I’m caught.” > > “You fool! The penalty for stealing 10 billion dollars is 20 years in prison!” > > “Oh shit! Forget it then!” > > Whether the penalty is 10 years or 20 years isn’t the issue. Whether the criminal thinks he’ll get caught is the issue. And doubling the prison term to make it less worthwhile to steal vast sums of money seems silly. You think doubling the prison term will halve the number of embezzlements? > > The scale isn’t linear. Getting caught and exposed as a fraud is 93.7% of the deterrent. The length of the jail term is only 6.3%. If you want to deter the next Bernie Madoff, try working harder to catch more embezzlers rather than more harshly punishing the few you do catch. Yeah, yeah sure, even a death penalty isn’t an absolute deterrent and we must fund SEC enforcement and actually let them do their jobs. BUT, I think that a life sentence or the death penalty would be an effective deterrent to this sort of crime, once again because the sort of people who are in a position to perpetrate these sort of billion dollar crimes are (for the most part) choosing between making a million dollars a year and stealing billions of dollars. Its not like they are choosing between pimping their wife out on a corner or stealing a billion dollars. The alternative to stealing that billion dollars is good enough that you wouldn’t want to even take a chance at throwing away your whole life. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2009, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madoffs-sentence/500717/39 "2009-06-26T21:33:59Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What about it? I am asuming that the typical banker is going to end up someone’s girlfriend or punching bag in jail. We don’t sentence people to be raped in this country. Or beaten by other prisoners. If any prisoner is in danger from other prisoners, they should be segregated and moved to somewhere where they are safe. Rape isn’t funny, and no one deserves to be raped, no matte how much they stole. Or to put it another way, we all deserve to live in a country where rape isn’t laughed about and winked at. Even if someone does deserve to be raped, we deserve to live in a country where no one has the right to rape that person. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2009, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madoffs-sentence/500717/40 "2009-06-26T23:56:56Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > 15 years would be about 1 year for each $4 billion that he defrauded. Which makes it “worth it”. This is a very tricky thing here. Does the punishment fit the crime? It’ll be hard to tell, for I don’t think anyone has ever been caught doing what he did to the extent in which he did it. Death is a stupid punishment and not a deterrent in the first place. I’d say that life in prison without parole is more than reasonable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madoffs-sentence/500717.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madoffs-sentence/500717.md?page=3)