# Madonna doors **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 12, 2022, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madonna-doors/969573 "2022-08-12T19:08:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2022, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madonna-doors/969573/1 "2022-08-12T19:08:11Z")
A story I am reading features a house purchase where the seller attempts to steal the antique “Madonna doors”. Does anyone know what they are? ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2022, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madonna-doors/969573/2 "2022-08-12T19:59:01Z")
It’s hard to guess without some context, but I’m guessing it’s something like this [![](https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/6Q8AAOSwnpRiN4vT/s-l500.jpg) ](https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/6Q8AAOSwnpRiN4vT/s-l500.jpg) Possibly instead of a painting, it could have carving or statue, but same basic idea. Does that work with the story? ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2022, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madonna-doors/969573/3 "2022-08-12T20:04:25Z")
I was curious so I did a search on google. This [image search](https://www.google.com/search?q=madonna+doors&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS768US768&sxsrf=ALiCzsa-7xBmMkxBApsiVBUtocgWI3y1vA:1660334064018&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwihmeCwisL5AhVUAjQIHemlD3EQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1680&bih=939&dpr=1#imgrc=RcXYisEbwBKdRM) seems to indicate that a Madonna Door is either a door in a church called “door of madonna” or a door with a depiction of Madonna, or Madonna with Child on or next to it. I got no wickipedia or other website reference to Madonna Doors. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2022, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madonna-doors/969573/4 "2022-08-12T21:29:08Z")
These are doors in a big 1920’s Italian house, but the doors are older - probably 19th century. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2022, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madonna-doors/969573/5 "2022-08-12T23:37:44Z")
> We went to the house with the Estate Agent and Uncle Francesca and there they were, all neatly stacked with intact door frames still attached. I learn that they are what they call ‘Madonna’ Doors – the door frames attach to the wall and the doors hang from them. From [here.](https://rosiemeleady.com/index.php/living-in-italy-missing-doors/) ---
**Author:** ![minlokwat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/minlokwat/32/2844_2.png) [@minlokwat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minlokwat)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madonna-doors/969573/6 "2022-08-13T00:16:13Z")
I’m guessing at that time those doors were really in Vogue. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madonna-doors/969573/7 "2022-08-13T01:58:46Z")
Or at least Cosmopolitan. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madonna-doors/969573/8 "2022-08-13T03:35:21Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > > We went to the house with the Estate Agent and Uncle Francesca and there they were, all neatly stacked with intact door frames still attached. I learn that they are what they call ‘Madonna’ Doors – the door frames attach to the wall and the doors hang from them. > > From [here.](https://rosiemeleady.com/index.php/living-in-italy-missing-doors/) Wait, aren’t door frames always attached to the wall, and don’t the doors always hang from the door frames? At least in modern houses that I’m familiar with. Maybe it’s different in very old houses. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madonna-doors/969573/9 "2022-08-13T06:32:40Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Wait, aren’t door frames always attached to the wall Sounds like the frame is surface mounted on the wall on one side of the doorway opening. If that’s the case I’d call modern construction building the frame into the wall. \_\_\_\_\_ DOOR \_\_\_\_\_ vs =====DOOR===== Closest thing these days would be a track mounted ‘barn’ door but with hinges. But I’m betting I’m wrong! ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madonna-doors/969573/10 "2022-08-13T08:00:04Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Sounds like the frame is surface mounted on the wall on one side of the doorway opening. If that’s the case I’d call modern construction building the frame into the wall. That’s what I thought when I read it. Although that made me wonder what the other side would look like. From the description, they do not fit very well either. In a brick-built house, the door and window frames are usually put in place as the walls are constructed and the doors and windows added later. There would also be a lintel to hold the wall above up. In a typical American house, where the walls are mostly stud and drywall, it may be different. The house in the story was built in Italy in the 1920s and all walls are brick or stone. ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madonna-doors/969573/11 "2022-08-13T08:14:58Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > aren’t door frames always attached to the wall, and don’t the doors always hang from the door frames? Not always. You can buy windows and doors in their frames to install as a unit, which is in many respects a far simpler process of installation if you think about it. Inserting a door frame for which you then have to fit a separately-made door that does not jam requires a lot of precision - 2mm out of square can cause a life time of being stuck. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madonna-doors/969573/12 "2022-08-13T08:42:01Z")
I have subscribed to the author’s blog and found this picture: [![](https://rosiemeleady.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/entrance.png) ](https://rosiemeleady.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/entrance.png) Clearly antique, but no explanation of why they are “Madonna” doors. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madonna-doors/969573/13 "2022-08-13T10:55:13Z")
Or does it just mean what I would call double doors? ---
**Author:** ![its\_the\_daddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bb73d2/32.png) [@its\_the\_daddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/its_the_daddy)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madonna-doors/969573/14 "2022-08-13T11:51:06Z")
I clearly remember Diana Dors in the 1960’s ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madonna-doors/969573/15 "2022-08-13T16:44:39Z")
But she was no Madonna. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madonna-doors/969573/16 "2022-08-13T17:07:52Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Madonna In Italian Ma Donna translates literally to My Lady. I don’t see how that helps but maybe? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madonna-doors/969573/17 "2022-08-13T18:56:58Z")
And specifically, it means Mary, especially when pictured with the infant Jesus. That’s who Madonna Ciccone (the singer) was named after, and she deliberately played up the contrast between herself and the Virgin. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2022, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/madonna-doors/969573/18 "2022-08-15T12:13:26Z")
YES, its the split door. One on the left, one on the right. Here is a better pic > **[Italian School, Madonna and Christ, oil on board, in a two door…](https://www.carters.com.au/index.cfm/item/975668-italian-school-madonna-and-christ-oil-on-board-in-a-two-door-pre/)** > > Italian School, Madonna and Christ, oil on board, in a two door presentation frame, 36.5 x 24.5 cm Not your standard “french” or “Double” door because the doors are not rectangular… they fit into , and completely fill, the arch (or angled ) doorway. Outside Italy, we’d probably call them Italian doors… but there’s an issue calling it that in Italy… But being very catholic, the Madonna presentation case is a standard thing…