# Mafia: Baker Street \[Game in progress\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 7, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752 "2014-02-07T14:39:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/201 "2014-02-14T18:55:54Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > 1. He revealed but didn’t copy/paste the role. That seems an odd choice to make if you’re going for a full reveal, especially if you’re vanilla. I’d like to hear the thought process that led him to spend extra time quoting his role in pieces rather than just doing a copy/paste. I didn’t know full, exact copying of PMs was allowed. I remember one storyteller game where you weren’t allowed to do it but instead, you had to paraphrase it/put it in your own words. But hey, if it’s allowed in this game, great… here it is: > [@](#): > > Welcome to the game; you are Estelle Anderson > > ROLE TYPE: Vanilla > ALIGNMENT: Yours (Town) > WIN CONDITION: You win when all of Mine (Scum) have been eliminated. > > Dear Mrs. Anderson – > > Please accept the enclosed invitation to attend a gathering at my home, this Tuesday evening. I have heard many stories of your work with various London charities, and of your generally selfless disposition of the funds left to you by your late husband. But I have decided to invite you anyway. I look forward to your impending reunion with the dearly departed Klaus. > > Refreshingly yours, > > ## M POWERS: If wealth is power, you are among the most powerful of my expected guests. Unfortunately, wealth is not power. Killing indiscriminately is. This means that you are out of luck, power-wise. HAPPY TUESDAY!!! > > CLUE: [taken out] > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > 1. Idle’s role (what he shared, anyway) tracks, structurally and grammatically, with mine, but **Dizzymrslizzy** ’s clue says that scum all have false roles to use. So even though it matches yours, it MUST mean I’m scum since scum have false roles, right? Pay no attention to the fact that EVERYONE’S PM, therefore, is going to already look like yours and therefore should be a moot point to vote for someone, it has to be because I have a false role, right? > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > 1. **Idle** makes a point of ‘predicting’ that scum will vote for him, basically setting up a claim that “anyone who votes for me is scum,” which to me pings scummy as a Day 1 claim. Are you being deliberately obtuse? My point was that since I have a clue that would BENEFIT scum, scum may try to vote for me in order to get me to claim it. But nothing doing. I’m not going to do that, so vote for me all you want if you find that suspicious. Oh wait, you already are…so that’s just 2 out of 3 foolish reasons for voting for me then (your first one I can understand). But your “Idle Thoughts always does this reasoning (which isn’t a reason you put an actual number one)” is also (in my opinion) pretty foolish. You play in one game with me claiming on day one and you’ll find it suspicious (everyone does the first time). You play in 10 GAMES with me claiming on day one and eventually you’ll learn “Him doing that is a null tell, because he does that all the time”. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/202 "2014-02-14T18:59:02Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Assuming the clue is true, we do have a female Scum, … but so far only one revealed female. This makes my vote easy: > **Vote: Idle Thoughts** > > Just (half-)kidding. 🆒 > **[del]Unvote: Idle Thoughts[/del]** If you’re being funny, why didn’t you unvote me? If you’re being serious, you know I’m male, right? And if you’re being serious and already know I’m a male: Why the vote? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/203 "2014-02-14T19:13:56Z")
> [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > But your “Idle Thoughts always does this reasoning (which isn’t a reason you put an actual number one)” is also (in my opinion) pretty foolish. I didn’t number it because it’s not one of the reasons I’m voting for you, just like I’m not voting for “pizza being pizza.” I’m willing to accept that you reveal every day on Day 1. I’m voting you because of the manner in which you did it. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/204 "2014-02-14T19:15:08Z")
NETA: Rather, I’m willing to accept that you reveal every GAME on Day 1. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/205 "2014-02-14T19:24:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Idle Thoughts** : > > If you’re being funny, why didn’t you unvote me? > If you’re being serious, you know I’m male, right? > And if you’re being serious and already know I’m a male: Why the vote? You’re male, but your character is female. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/206 "2014-02-14T19:26:10Z")
The manner of which I did it…you mean putting it out there in bits and pieces? If it’s that, I’ve explained why I did it like that in that post (and have since posted the full PM)…so…why are you still voting for me then? Because you don’t believe me? ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/207 "2014-02-14T19:28:36Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > You’re male, but your character is female. Ah, okay. So, a player reveals their clue says “A character with a female name is scum”…and because mine happens to be a female name, I’m a good choice…is that correct, **Septimus?** You do know there are PROBABLY others in this game with female names, right? ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/208 "2014-02-14T19:29:24Z")
Anyway, as I said, I’m vanilla, so if ya’ll are going to lynch me on day one, better it me than a random power role. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/209 "2014-02-14T20:08:57Z")
Guess I’d better do that scum hunting thing. Theory is all well and good but we have non-theoretical scumbags afoot. Cold read of players from start to now: let’s see how worthless that is this early. > [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I think the more lies we force scum to tell the better off we are but I take your point. I feel good about leaving IS alive for now. His opening posts plus this one indicate to me that he’s engaged in the game and being fairly open about what’s on his mind. That helps players who analyze posts read his intentions. I’d favor leaving him be for now until a better read comes in. I don’t trust the players who hang back and let the discussion happen on its own and aren’t engaged, because I cannot cold read them. > [@DaphneBlack](#): > > I agree that a mass reveal of clues is likely to have unforeseen, possibly bad, consequences. But lynchees revealing their clues doesn’t seem to have a downside. I do think that we should not spend too much time and effort worrying about the clues, lest we distract ourselves from Ye Olde Scumhunt. > > I’m excited by the lack of a night phase, I think this should help keep everyone involved in the game. > > **Chronos** , are you going to resurrect your voting program? Or is it defeated by the availability of multivote? > > I’ve not played, as far as I can remember, in a multivote game before. What effects does mv tend to have in terms of the voting record, other than it being more complicated? > > **Inner Stickler** , I’m interested in your remark that revealing clues will force scum to lie. What leads you to that conclusion? Couple of warning signs. The entire post reads to me as an almost forced attempt to sound engaged, positive, and upbeat. She’s also asking too many direct questions of other players for it to feel natural to me. Read the other player’s posts and you should be able to see the difference. A concentrated burst of direct questions to other players. Just feels out of place. If I am a scum player who is not confident in my ability to fool people, what I do is I mimic the most common signs that someone is a valuable townie, or at least, a townie you want around: Someone who is discussing and asking questions and has a positive attitude (for diplomatic reasons- nobody likes to get rid of nice, positive people). I couple this post with the one where she cold reads me townie based on my play so far. That’s correct, but iirc DaphneBlack and I have played together before and I honestly believe she would be more wary of me. Especially if I am talking a lot about game theory and am focusing my attack on basically only one candidate, something I recognize I do when I am scum. I think the odds are better than random DaphneBlack is not a townie. > [@Mahaloth](#): > > Does anyone have a clue that would be bad to post? I’m favoring posting all of our clues based on mine. This post feels like a natural and real reaction to having a non-dangerous clue, and what a townie will think, reacting to that. I had a similar reaction myself, but paused and thought that it may not be the case for everyone and that mass reveals could make it easier for the scums to guess the setup of the game. So I remember having this very organic reaction, and I give Mahaloth solid town lean for it. Those of you in his shoes with a similar non-dangerous clue should also have had that reaction. Think about it. > [@Chronos](#): > > CLUE: James Moriarty, the Scum leader, can lose his Godfather status under some conditions. The clue that Chronos has could be a real clue given to him as a scumbag, or even a cover clue given to his cover role, which doubles as useful information to James Moriarty. I don’t know how I feel about Chronos yet, but his clue is just as useful for the scums to know as the townies. > [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > Okay. > > First of all, I’m vanilla. My name is **Estelle Anderson**. > My alignment is “Yours” and my wincon is “You win when all of Mine (Scum) have been eliminated”. Idle claiming vanilla immediately scores him townie points because he literally cannot be a scumbag with night actions unless he’s willing to potentially be found guilty by a tracker or watcher. Scums who are not vanilla should never claim to be vanilla townies. This claim is too dangerous for non-vanilla scums to use, and furthermore, vanilla scums are usually the cannon fodder which do the night kill, since they’re less of a loss if they get caught. I disagree with all votes on Idle Thoughts at the moment. Even if he were guilty, he’s made his own game a potential minefield. He’d have to be inactive to avoid the other two types of investigators, and a simple normal investigation would catch him otherwise, unless he were a Godfather. If any one of the early voting candidates should be given more rope, it’s this guy. I intend to vote for rival candidates if it will spare Idle. Again I disagree with Idle’s reckless strategy of claiming this so early unprompted, however, I have yet to see it be a game-killer. It’s also irrelevant to how townie or scummy he is. > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > I am opposed to a mass claim of clues, wholly and utterly. If you’re dying and you deem it wise, reveal. Otherwise, I say we play them close to our chest until we think they’re directly useful to the gamestate at hand. > > Here’s my reasoning: > > 1. My clue is potentially beneficial by sitting on it and waiting. I’d reckon others have similar clues. > > [snipped] His feelings about his clue feel as organic as Mahaloth’s. This and other posts make me have zero interest in voting Astral. We’ll see if I can cite some more as I go along. > [@DaphneBlack](#): > > I agree with both of the above points. And I understand why you would reveal your clue, given what it says. If the consequences of being false are low, then I can’t see the harm. > > Do you mind explaining why you think it would be optimal to vote for the probable number of people as there are scum? I can’t help but think that that will make it harder to spot scummy voting patterns… > > **Idle** ’s claim rings true to me. > > **Inner Stickler** , fair enough! Again, I feel Daphne is quick to hand out the townie card. Her posts also continue to read unnaturally to me. > [@Darth\_Sensitive](#): > > I think the only appropriate response to this is the standard retailiatory vote. > > OMGUS **Vote Askthepizzaguy** > > And now that I have defended my honor and gotten used to voting after a long hiatus… > > **Unvote Askthepizzaguy** > > My clue is only going to relevant in the event that we make name claims. I think it’s useful, but my gut feeling is that making all of the clues useful to start the game would require a big big info dump that might give scum an early advantage per what storyteller said. My vote on this guy was actually not random, I voted him because I have never played with him before to my knowledge, and because I wanted to start getting him on record as having reacted to voting pressure. Also, a nice way of introducing myself to someone I’ve not played with before. Hello, my name is Askthepizzaguy, you killed my father, prepare to die. You know, that old chestnut. But his reaction didn’t feel like he had any interest in joining the group in that whole finding scums game we’re playing, and thus, my vote remains. Nothing he’s done since then has changed my mind. He may yet be able to reverse my opinion, and if he’s townie I hope he does. But only he can do this at this point. > [@Chronos](#): > > Oops, another page. > > Fish or cut bait. If you think it’ll help to post yours, go ahead. If you don’t think it’ll help, don’t push others to. But pushing for everyone to post their clues while not doing so yourself looks fishy to me. > > **Vote Mahaloth** I think this vote does nothing to find scum. > [@TexCat](#): > > I don’t remember Estelle Anderson as a character. **Daphne** , you seemed very quick to accept Idle’s claim; do you know who Estelle Anderson is? (Snipped… as a matter of fact I’m probably going to snip a lot of quotes just to focus on the relevant part) Seems like a natural question to ask, and it does help find scum because it challenges a player’s read of someone as townie. I want more from TexCat, though, so I’m mostly neutral about her. She’s great at sniffing bullshit and so I’d encourage her to get those sniffers going. > [@DaphneBlack](#): > > No, I do not know who Estelle Anderson is. > > I accept the claim on tone mostly. I don’t agree with her conclusion, or how she reached it. I think the real reason she accepted the claim is because she knows already who is townie and who isn’t. I think this post is an outright lie, in fact. Maybe I’m seeing things that aren’t there but I disbelieve almost everything Daphne has said so far. > [@Captain\_Klutz](#): > > There’s a difference between bold and reckless. Each player can decide for themselves whether their clue is worth sharing. > > I’m certainly curious what all the clues are, but we have been specifically told that some clues would be disadvantageous to share. My clue, if true, could be useful. If false, dangerous. I don’t see a need to share it yet. Captain Klutz, and subsequent posts- neutral. I can’t find anything here yet. [quote=“Johnny\_Bravo, post:109, topic:680752”] We know that most of the _total_ clues are true, but we also know that every scum has a true clue. This means that the total number of clues held by town _may be_ less than 50% true. > [@](#): > > This makes good sense to me. What does everyone else think? Is a potential lynch on Day 1 worth the risk of a mislynch? Johnny Bravo’s thought process is surprising to me. His approach to the game is wholly different from mine. Didn’t even occur to me to focus on what percent of the clues are true, I just assumed I should be skeptical of all of them. I’m not sure how to read a player with such a different approach. I am interested to see where he goes with things, but I can’t decide where I should put him. > [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > Might as well vote me now then, because Pizza is stubborn as a mule and has been voting randomly on day one since he began playing over 6 years ago. > > It’s day one, all you have is random voting and then people voting others because they “don’t like” their random votes. > > Come and get it, pizza’s hot and fresh and never really gives a damn about threats. You can take it with the usual grain of salt, but I’d never post this as scum. This invites a needless day one lynch and people’s psychology is such that they will accept such an invitation. If people say they’re going to vote you, daring them to do so and being stubborn is not the way you gain their favor or get them to move on to other targets. This post is why you can know I am townie with certainty. Take it or leave it. > [@Rysto](#): > > PM received. Will try to catch up as soon as possible. > > The upcoming weekend is a holiday weekend in Canada, so my Day 1 participation may not be up to par, but I’ll do my best. Neutral, but also filed under “this is something scums do on Day 1 to get a feel for the discussion and avoid being the day 1 lynchee.” It is almost 100 percent effective at keeping votes off of oneself. It’s impolite, after all, to vote for someone who has essentially begged for a little time due to RL. It’s neutral because townies do it too, but it’s such a cheap way to not die Day 1 that I’m noting it. Especially if Rysto doesn’t impress later on. > [@Dizzymrslizzy](#): > > Oh and Pizza I HATEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEe Your Day 1 random votes, in fact I don’t quite like not knowing what side of the fence you are on! LOL Dizzy has historically reacted to the style and strategy of my play with this reaction. I don’t think I’ve ever done anything in the early game she’s approved of. She is also immensely paranoid about me. Posts like these get my attention because they single me out as being different from other players. Others vote randomly day one, but it’s me she focuses on. It’s typical Dizzy and I can’t detect anything abnormal about it. Neutral. Also, since Dizzy and I have such wildly different views about the game, I’m liable to try to discuss the approach with her so she can grok what I’m thinking and vice-versa. It would be a nice change of pace to see eye-to-eye. ---------CONTINUED IN PART II-------------- ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/210 "2014-02-14T20:09:58Z")
PART II: > [@TexCat](#): > > What if our clues help identify us to scum? For example, perhaps a scum clue looks like: Sherlock’s clue talks about false identities. Or, Dr. Watson’s clue talks about a Godfather. I would suggest that everyone keeps their clue secret unless it is strictly helpful to town in some way, not merely if it looks benign. Neutral, but clues which suggest other clues are false are probably false. Think about it, TexCat: If a clue is false, and there’s another clue which says that the first clue is false, there’s little or no point in the first clue being false, because it did not have the detrimental effect against the town that the game designer intended. Now, you could balance that out by having half of the clues which suggest other clues are false be true. Make sense? Otherwise it’s a bit predictable which clues should be ignored. In general, just ignore every clue (and therefore, in the process, render moot the clue that tells about the other clue being false) that has been declared false by another clue, therefore making those 2 clues a wash. More interesting is a false clue which says a true clue is false. As a matter of fact, I have a clue which suggests another clue is false. And I am very, very skeptical of it. Here it is: > [@](#): > > CLUE: A man named Langdale Pike is in possession of false information that should be ignored. Either my clue or Langdale Pike’s clue is false. As a game designer, in my opinion, I am in possession of the false clue, and you should consider Langdale Pike’s clue to be potentially true anyway. Not 100 percent lock true, but do not discount Langdale Pike’s information simply because I have a clue which suggests his is false. One of the clues is definitely false, and from a game design standpoint, I’d make it the one that says the other one is false, because THAT will successfully confuse people. Otherwise, I’ve just successfully thwarted Langdale Pike’s clue from doing damage to the town. That’s boring. There’s no twist. There’s no drama. Whereas if my clue is false, that makes the game much, much more interesting. Of course, having deduced that my clue is false, if I am correct, it would seem I also just gave my endorsement for Langdale Pike to reveal his clue… EXCEPT **Langdale pike, you give cover to Sherlock Holmes.** Revealing who you are makes it easier for scums to find Sherlock Holmes. Reveal your clue if and when you think it is justified, but keep in mind you and others’ existence makes it harder for scums to find our detective. So my suggestion is to sit on your clue, and do not reveal it, even if it is potentially useful! > [@DiggitCamara](#): > > On re-reading the rules I noticed that at least 50% of the TOTAL Clues are “True Clues™”. > > So, if we have 6 Scum we could have as few as 6 “True Clues™” assigned to Town. > > Sorry about that mistake. Easy mistake to make. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I personally don’t like “random” votes but voting on D1 with little reasoning behind it seems fair enough, usually there is a bit more to go on as the Day progresses (and it’s usually wrong) > > I think that if players want to reveal their clues it is up to them but in my case I would like to keep it confidential for now because it might come in handy later on. Could be true, but also the strategy I’d pick if I were scum. Keeps the options open. The whole post here reads as safe. I don’t like safe. Next up is Sinjin’s terrible post: > [@sinjin](#): > > Yes, in overly powered games town does seem to rely on power roles to a ridiculous extent. What does that have to do with the scums ability to “smell the way the wind is blowing?” And why would scums not “know who is about to be lynched” in a mostly vanilla game vs a powered game? This makes no sense to me. > > Several folks have brought up the fact that \*\*STORYTELLER \*\*himself said that posting your clue might be damaging to your team. If your clue cannot damage town then post it. > > And here you go again. Urging town to do something that the \*\*MOD \*\*has said could be a bad idea and you don’t care. > > **Vote Mahaloth**. I don’t subscribe to the “scums wouldn’t do that” line of thought. > > [snip] He then goes on to vote me, too. I don’t subscribe to a thing Sinjin just said. I like the aggression, but all of it seems entirely misplaced. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I see\*\* Sinjin\*\* has it right, it’s an early D1 vote but it has a reason behind it. I have already started thinking about why **Pizza** has posted so much about random votes, is it to have a high post count so that he looks involved while pretty much saying nothing because he is scum. > [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > If you vote me, you’ll get to see that theory disproved within the span of this first Day. > > 😃 I seem to remember getting dogpiled by an entire scum team right away as a claimed mason in a game on Giraffe. I do not mind dying early and flipping innocent to get attention placed on the opportunists who vote for me based on what I consider contrived reasons. I tempted Silver Jan to put her vote where her smudge was and she declined. Cautious Silver Jan is cautious. > [@Mahaloth](#): > > Thanks, I did not see that. Proceed to vote me for skimming, though I swear I haven’t been. Heh, skimming is such a bogus tell I even point out that I just skimmed when I am scum because of how ridiculous the concept is. We all do this all the time, it seems like. Your shoelaces are tied, you must be scum, etc. > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Sinjin, are you planning on voting for Mahaloth, or just leaving it at “scummy, scummy, scummy”? > [@Mahaloth](#): > > He did vote me. Right away. Typically townie behavior of not even noticing who got voted. Doesn’t feel like acting either. > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > I think you’re all throwing smudges out a little hot and heavy here, sinjin. > > Re: Mahaloth - I find it unlikely that a scum Mahaloth would gloss over the very first game page. When I played scum (all twice), I was hyper-critical of the text in front of me. I don’t believe “Mahaloth being scum” explains his actions. > > Re: Me defending Mahaloth - In every game I have ever played, I have defended players against what I consider bad arguments. Sometimes this gets me lynched, and sometimes it doesn’t, but that doesn’t really matter… town benefits most from me commenting on everything. > > I get that you’re implying a scum Astral is jumping in to save a scum Mahaloth against nebulous day 1 semi-votes, but this, too, I find incredibly unlikely. Especially since I’m one of them! 🙂 Sinjin’s entire offense so far is a glass jaw easily shattered. > [@Dizzymrslizzy](#): > > I agree with Astral. Sinjin seems a bit aggressive at the moment. I think you are being a tad opportunistic for Mahaloth skimming at the beginning fo D1 > > [vote]Sinjin[/vote] A reminder to bold and blue, no vote tags. > [@Rysto](#): > > I’m really not getting you here. Where’s your argument for: > > a) Why Mahaloth missing story’s rule post and the subsequent discussion about it something that shows scum motivation? > b) Equally important but often forgotten, why this is **not** something that shows _town_ motivation? > > Both of these elements are critical to building a case, but you haven’t come close to discussing either. The thrust of your argument appears to be “skimming is a scum tell”. A lot of people seem to be independently coming to the same conclusions here. > [@Darth\_Sensitive](#): > > **Pizza** - If you think I’m waffling on my clue or the clues in general, you need to reread. I am against a mass clue reveal. > > To elaborate: I think that a mass clue claim is going to be a net disadvantage to the town. Per the mod, clue reveals “may not always benefit the side of the player given the clue” - as there are more town players, they are more likely to not benefit when posting the clue than scum. Whatever odds you set on a clue helping the other side more than it helps the poster, more bad info is going to come out that misleads the town > (and that discounts the fact that the scum have the ability to coordinate and potentially catch and edit flaws in their clues, dropping the chance that a scum clue aids the town). > > As I said earlier, my clue is only relevant if there is a name claim. It does not make sense to share until the person named is revealed, and I do not plan to do so. Where’s Darth’s interaction with anyone besides me? Next: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17104099&postcount=177](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17104099&postcount=177) Big post by wevets. I disagree with 3 of those votes and am neutral on the fourth. Good effort but I think you’ve missed the mark, and/or I’d need further convincing. Neutral on Chronos. You might get me there, but he’s got meat in his posts and I hate to kill that on Day 1. Maybe later. Show me more about how scummy he is. So far, all you’ve done is point out his Mahaloth vote is weaksauce. Sure, it is, but is he scum for weaksauce votes? Doubtful. What else you got? Curious about others opinions on Chronos since he’s seemingly going to be one of our big discuss-y talker guys. > [@DaphneBlack](#): > > **wevets** , I do think that the statement you mention of **Chronos** ’ re: **Mahaloth** is a stronger point against him. > > I stated that I was thinking of voting Mahaloth because I was – thinking of voting Mahaloth – but hadn’t decided. I am more naturally cautious with voting. Since this is a multi-vote game, I should get used to it. I agree we need to vote. I don’t actually want to vote Mahaloth at this point, though I’d appreciate it if he explicitly answered my question (post 167). > > I’m not interested in voting **sinjin** , **pizza** or **Idle** now. All seem townie to me. If Daphne is scum, I would wager heavily that either sinjin and idle are both townies, or that she is scum with sinjin. The other two are more obviously townie. I think she’s giving out townie cards way too easily. I don’t trust Daphne. > [@wevets](#): > > I get it - is this something you usually do (i.e. mention the thought of voting before carrying it out)? > > Are **sinjin** , **pizza** and **Idle** your only townie leans so far? If Daphne is scum, wevets seems independent of her, and likely townie. > [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > You must have never played a game with me before. I claim every game on Day one. And so far–in my 9-10 times of doing it–I’ve been Town. > > Yep, see the posts I made right above your post here. wevets and idle both feel townie from this exchange. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17104591&postcount=187](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17104591&postcount=187) I dislike septimus’ (joke) vote here, and I think he should unvote it properly. > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Regarding **Mahaloth** : Maybe it’s because this is only my second big Mafia game, but I can’t get on board with “skimming is a scum tell.” Not in a game that can churn out scores of posts every day. > > So I’m a little bit leery of players who maintain that they always play a certain way early on in Mafia games. \*\*Idle Thoughts \*\*claims every game on Day 1, \*\*pizza \*\*is “being **pizza** ” when he votes early and indiscriminately. > > The problem is that this employing this kind of metastrategy provides a great smokescreen in the event that you do end up being scum. If **pizza** is scum this game, then he never has to justify his early voting record beyond “well, I’m **pizza** and **pizza** votes early and indiscriminately.” > > Likewise, Idle Thoughts doesn’t have to justify his early reveal beyond “I’m **Idle Thoughts** and I always reveal early and anyway I’m almost always town.” > > Either way, “pizza being pizza” is enough justification to not vote for him: he’s acting consistently within his own metastrategy and I haven’t seen anything else from him that pings scummy. I 100% believe that he’s totally cool with attracting a Day 1 lynch when he’s town, but the way I feel about _that_ isn’t germane to the game. > > On the other hand, I have some concerns about **Idle Thoughts**. > > 1. He revealed but didn’t copy/paste the role. That seems an odd choice to make if you’re going for a full reveal, especially if you’re vanilla. I’d like to hear the thought process that led him to spend extra time quoting his role in pieces rather than just doing a copy/paste. > > 2. Idle’s role (what he shared, anyway) tracks, structurally and grammatically, with mine, but **Dizzymrslizzy** ’s clue says that scum all have false roles to use.2a) _Obligatory remark reiterating my understanding that clues might be false._ > 2b) Whether Dizzy’s clue is false or not, there’s still the oddity of the not-quite-complete vanilla reveal. > > 3. **Idle** makes a point of ‘predicting’ that scum will vote for him, basically setting up a claim that “anyone who votes for me is scum,” which to me pings scummy as a Day 1 claim. > > I’m not scum, but my scumdar is pinging. So until/unless some of my doubts are assuaged I’m going to > > **Vote Idle Thoughts** Nope. Just disagree with what he finds scummy about all that. I think he’s looking for things to pick on, and Idle is easy. I don’t sense deception from this post, but I disagree with it just the same. > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Why do you suspect this? > > It feels a lot like you’re just reiterating what others have said. > > That’s why we need to bring our A game, every game. We can solve this game, like town can solve any game, and repeating how hard it is sounds like defeatism. It just started, so I’m curious why you’re feeling so dismal about the game? > > I’m gonna chuck out an early vote for this post in aggregate. > > **Vote Silver Jan** I agree with this vote, and think the man placing the vote is worthy of following. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/211 "2014-02-14T20:11:59Z")
Reasons for these votes given in above massive post. Separating for ease of visibility. \*\*Vote Silver Jan Vote DaphneBlack \*\* My current votes are Darth Sensitive and Sinjin. Let’s cut Darth a break, we can return to him. My votes are meaningless if they’re spread too thin. Plus, votes on Silver Jan and Daphne are based on content, not meta. **Unvote Darth Sensitive** ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/212 "2014-02-14T20:12:59Z")
Also, I am going to be very grumpy if more votes land on Idle thoughts. Pizza no like, bad medicine. > [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > Anyway, as I said, I’m vanilla, so if ya’ll are going to lynch me on day one, better it me than a random power role. Nah, that’s still a terrible move. Better is to lynch scumbags. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/213 "2014-02-14T20:16:38Z")
Uh for those of you who skim, I revealed my clue in the two-parter post above. So that’s important to note even if you no wanna read the rest. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/214 "2014-02-14T20:29:33Z")
My clue also means I’d never vote for Langdale Pike. If my clue is true, he has false information and is therefore townie. If my clue is false, he has real information, but his real name is Langdale Pike, not James Moriarty. So, uh, keep hidden, dude. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/215 "2014-02-14T20:35:42Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > We know that most of the _total_ clues are true, but we also know that every scum has a true clue. This means that the total number of clues held by town _may be_ less than 50% true. Pizza quoting this made me remember it to bring up another point: If you think I’m scum, then why do I have a clue that would benefit scum knowing it? We’re told that scum all have true clues, well, then my clue would obviously be something scum DOESN’T know yet…so the mod giving my clue to a scum player makes no sense. And yes, I know you don’t know this because you don’t know what my clue is, and no, I’m not about to tell you either… **because it would benefit scum to know.** ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/216 "2014-02-14T20:37:11Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > Nah, that’s still a terrible move. > > Better is to lynch scumbags. I agree…but if a mislynch happens (and so far I’ve got 3 votes), then better mislynching a vanilla than town power role was my point. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/217 "2014-02-14T20:47:58Z")
> [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > I agree…but if a mislynch happens (and so far I’ve got 3 votes), then better mislynching a vanilla than town power role was my point. I concur, but more information is gleaned by attempting to get Moriarty and his thugs. Pressure on scums, even if unsuccessful in lynching them, is infinitely better than safe votes on obvious vanillas. Pizza doesn’t like waiting for ages to start voting, pizza doesn’t like to wait for ages for people to have something to analyze, pizza doesn’t like any length of any game where the scums get no pressure. In short, I don’t want to waste my time. I could die at the end of this very round. Why would I waste it chasing innocent people who are obvious nillers. I want to have my vote on at least two scumbags before the round ends. Otherwise I wasted my time. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/218 "2014-02-14T20:50:56Z")
Again, if Idle is scum, his claim renders him incapable of doing a damned thing at night without potentially being caught and rendered an immediate liar by trackers and watchers. Scums who hamstring their options on day one are scums that will die. Townies who are vanilla townies aren’t our targets to lynch anyway. Edit: I am off to work. Have fun. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/219 "2014-02-14T21:07:50Z")
> [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > And yes, I know you don’t know this because you don’t know what my clue is, and no, I’m not about to tell you either… **because it would benefit scum to know.** Right, so let’s put that aside for the moment. Your main defense is that you didn’t know we couldn’t post our entire rules because of an earlier storyteller game. I don’t have the context to judge that claim, so (assuming it’s kosher to do so) I’ll just ask for a link to that game. ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/220 "2014-02-14T21:11:58Z")
Hi **Pizza**! I am wary of you by nature but I still think you are town right now. Not voting for you. Don’t really see a lot in what you have said so far that makes me go hmm. The huge walls of text can make my eyes glaze over a bit tho. Some votes vote Septimus vote Silver Jan No concrete evidence. Don’t like **septimus** ’ vote at all. **silver Jan** seems keen to avoid responsibility. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752.md?page=12)