# Mafia: Baker Street \[Game in progress\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 7, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752 "2014-02-07T14:39:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Darth\_Sensitive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Darth\_Sensitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Sensitive)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/241 "2014-02-15T05:46:48Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Does anyone have a clue that would be bad to post? I’m favoring posting all of our clues based on mine. Why would you advocate posting all clues, but not include your own? It feels odd, but I am not advocating that you post what you have > [@Mahaloth](#): > > Call me cray, but I’m tempted to just push that we go ahead and state all of our clues. It might not be the safest move, but I’m up for a bold move. This is rather bold, perhaps stupidly so, especially after multiple noted between your posts that the game rules urged us to exercise caution with our clues. However, though it might not be a move that helps the town, it does not read like a scum move. If you were scum I’d expect that you would have laid off after the negative reactions the first time. Instead you doubled down > [@Mahaloth](#): > > OK, here comes stupid me again who may have questions that come out of skimming. Or perhaps I’m just dense. > > What is the point of even having clues if we don’t know whose clues are true? Perhaps we have a person who can determine the validity of clues? But if that is the case, they have to reveal themselves to confirm anyone’s clues. > > If we don’t have that, don’t we have to reveal our clues just to find out which ones contradict each other? This is not quite tripling down, but close. We don’t need to reveal our clues - how many do you think will be contradictory? I would guess that most clues will be right or wrong on their own merits. None of the clues that have been posted make me think clues will contradict each other. Story - can we get a prod on those who haven’t posted since PMs went out? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/242 "2014-02-15T06:18:22Z")
> [@Captain\_Klutz](#): > > Yes, there are no “Night” actions, but there are still actions. They just all get resolved at dusk, along with the lynch. So a claimed vanilla can still be caught by a tracker or watcher. I realize. I still would like a comment from Pizza. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/243 "2014-02-15T06:42:29Z")
> [@DaphneBlack](#): > > I’ve found rather that people who seize on “third vote = scum” are scum looking for an easy vote, or laaaazy townies. Boo. I gave two reasons for my vote. I’m just as responsible for this vote as I am for any other, and it can be used against me as needed the same as any other. I don’t really subscribe to the idea of “voting to avoid responsibility” or “making easy votes.” Besides… you might not like my justification based on the third vote, but I plainly stated that it’s proven more accurate than not in past games, and I feel it’s a legitimate reason to vote. [/QUOTE] > [@Chronos](#): > > Vague “pings” don’t mean anything, and **Pizza** ’s reasoning on **Daphne** is basically nonexistent. Or are you saying that you just want to know someone else suspects a person before you’ll vote for them? Because that’s not really great, either. On Day 1, I’m unsure how much better my case could possibly be, or what standard you’re holding me to. Pings, “vague” or otherwise (nice scare quotes!), are a legitimate Day 1 strategy. And, as I said to DaphneBlack, you not liking a reason doesn’t mean it ceases to exist. Pizza says: “_Couple of warning signs. The entire post reads to me as an almost forced attempt to sound engaged, positive, and upbeat. She’s also asking too many direct questions of other players for it to feel natural to me. Read the other player’s posts and you should be able to see the difference. A concentrated burst of direct questions to other players. Just feels out of place._” I agree with that. He also says “_If I am a scum player who is not confident in my ability to fool people, what I do is I mimic the most common signs that someone is a valuable townie, or at least, a townie you want around: Someone who is discussing and asking questions and has a positive attitude (for diplomatic reasons- nobody likes to get rid of nice, positive people)._” I agree with that too, and I feel that adequately describe DaphneBlack’s behavior so far and could be signs of scumminess. My vote necessarily follows those feelings. I feel like your whole point here involves throwing out a nice, meaty strawman to knock down, and you’ve loaded the question anyway, since my choices as presented are “Scum making a meaningless vote or Scum follower waiting for someone else to make a case.” > [@Chronos](#): > > I dunno, maybe **Pizza** really does just suck this much at playing as Town, though I doubt it. But who’s worse, the fool or the fool who follows him? Does anybody have an ice pack for this wicked burn? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/244 "2014-02-15T07:31:23Z")
Fine, **Astral** , but I think you are mistaken about the accuracy of the third vote tell. But you are right, you will stand or fall on the votes you make, and you have given a reason, even if I don’t like it. I really would like to know what is ‘unnatural’ about asking direct questions. **Mahaloth** , I update my question to you: what is your current stance on the revealing of clues? It is not clear to me, nor to others, I think. In other areas of discussion, I conclude it is very likely based on the preponderance of the evidence that scum have cover roles. I don’t think that makes a vanilla claim inherently _less_ believable though. We have no reason to assume cover roles will be vanilla, or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/245 "2014-02-15T09:20:03Z")
> [@DaphneBlack](#): > > Oh **Pizza** , whilst we are talking play styles and stuff: you complain that I like to ask little questions of people – paraphrasing you, but that’s the gist. I know I did that when we scummed together but I think I do that in every game. And in real life too fwiw. > > I wish more people asked each other direct specific questions actually. In Mafia, and in life. Don’t get me wrong, I am not complaining. If you’re being genuine, then you’re doing necessary town actions, which is asking people direct questions. It just feels out of place in the crowd, and not just this crowd. Maybe it’s just a personality quirk I haven’t gotten used to of yours. If that’s the case I’ll eventually learn. Right now, still feels weird. I’ll continue to observe and see if I change my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/246 "2014-02-15T09:21:46Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Does the fact that there’s no Night in this game change your calculus at all? There are literally no scumbags with night actions in this game, period. No not at all, actually. I say Night actions because typically that’s when they all happen. Actions, of any kind, won’t be happening from vanilla roles. The logic is precisely the same, but in this game only, the word “night” doesn’t apply. The conclusion remains the same. The calculus, so to speak, is exactly the same. No difference at all. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/247 "2014-02-15T09:28:32Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, this is mostly going to be in response to **Pizza** , just because he’s done a lot of talking: > > Vanilla claims are far safer for Scum than power claims are. Anyone who claims a power role first of all risks a counterclaim, and second must account for how they’re using their powers. Both of those are always risky. Claiming vanilla is only risky _if_ you’re doing something active _and_ there’s either a tracker in the game or a very lucky watcher. > > And yet, you’re handing out the townie card to the same person, based on the same post. > > How do you figure? If **Mahaloth** turns out to be Scum, it’ll do a lot to find Scum. Now, I don’t _know_ whether he’s Scum… do you? > > Funny, whatever else you might say about **Daphne** , I think that post is 100% true. I’m sure that she doesn’t have any idea who Estelle Anderson is, because _nobody_ has any idea who Estelle Anderson is. Google doesn’t have any idea, either. > > You missed a third possibility: Your clue is false, and Langdale Pike doesn’t exist. If that’s the case, then anyone claiming to be him is lying and should be lynched. If. Which means that, if someone does eventually claim to be Langdale Pike, your clue doesn’t really tell us what that person’s alignment is. > > And just for a change, something posted by **Astral Rejection** : > > Vague “pings” don’t mean anything, and **Pizza** ’s reasoning on **Daphne** is basically nonexistent. Or are you saying that you just want to know someone else suspects a person before you’ll vote for them? Because that’s not really great, either. > > I dunno, maybe **Pizza** really does just suck this much at playing as Town, though I doubt it. But who’s worse, the fool or the fool who follows him? > > **Vote Askthepizzaguy > Vote Astral Rejection** Chronos instantly gets +1 scummy points for this post. Methinks I’m itching a tender spot that the scums are wont to scratch. [Tu quoque](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque) is the accusation made by scumbags that I have seen the most over my many years playing this game. Surely Chronos doesn’t suck this badly at being a townie. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/248 "2014-02-15T09:34:20Z")
> [@Captain\_Klutz](#): > > Okay, if he is Langdale Pike then he is not James Moriarty. But how does that stop him from being scum? It doesn’t, but it excludes him from being a candidate for James Moriarty, who is known scum. Which means he is mathematically less likely to be scum than anyone else in possession of a true clue. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/249 "2014-02-15T09:42:16Z")
Hypocrisy is the cheapest of all charges to level against a townie. For they (townies) are forever on a mission to make others die… for wanting to make others die. Forever voting others for voting others. They find lurkers to be lurky, after having just lurked. Being aggressive towards those who are aggressive. Being defensive about being defensive. Voting someone who was third on the wagon, and in so doing, becoming someone who is also third on that person’s wagon. You too, says the scumbags. When a townie is at their most townie, they are still vulnerable to tu quoque, the last refuge of the most miserable and unimaginative of scumbags. I fart in your general direction, Chronos. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Klutz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captain_klutz/32/4993_2.png) [@Captain\_Klutz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Klutz)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/250 "2014-02-15T10:12:42Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > It doesn’t, but it excludes him from being a candidate for James Moriarty, who is known scum. Which means he is mathematically less likely to be scum than anyone else in possession of a true clue. Yes, it does make him less likely, but only by a few percent. That’s enough that you won’t vote for him?? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Klutz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captain_klutz/32/4993_2.png) [@Captain\_Klutz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Klutz)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/251 "2014-02-15T10:16:13Z")
NETA: Assuming 5 scum it’s around 20% less likely, rather than just a few percent. But the point stands - is that really enough of an improvement that you won’t vote for him? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/252 "2014-02-15T11:07:41Z")
**Unvote: Idle Thoughts** I like Pizza’s case: **Vote: DaphneBlack** Chronos is pinging me slightly by being overly “helpful”, but I think that’s his style. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/253 "2014-02-15T11:35:47Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Right, so let’s put that aside for the moment. > > Your main defense is that you didn’t know we couldn’t post our entire rules because of an earlier storyteller game. I don’t have the context to judge that claim, so (assuming it’s kosher to do so) I’ll just ask for a link to that game. Right [here.](http://psychopathgame.proboards.com/thread/219/basic-rules-gameplay) Second paragraph from the bottom: > [@](#): > > Please do not _ **directly** _ quote the role PM you receive, nor the contents of any message sent to you by the moderator. Bolding and italics mine. We were allowed to PARAPHRASE the PMs and put it in our own words and even quote minor parts of it (bits and pieces), but not post the WHOLE thing. > [@septimus](#): > > 😕 😕 > > (But mine is a weakish Day 1 vote.) I thought you were talking about me…I didn’t think about my role name, but after **Chronos** pointed that out to me, I then asked you: “You DO know there’s probably more than one female name in the game, right?” But nevermind, I see you unvoted me anyway. I also see \*\*Captain Klutz \*\*found the game as well, so thanks for that (in case I couldn’t find it). I usually reply on a post by post basis without reading the rest of the replies. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/254 "2014-02-15T13:56:18Z")
Well, THAT escalated quickly. Vote count to follow; if you note errors, please feel free to point them out. They may or may not be errors, but I’ll check each one carefully. * * * **DaphneBlack** - 5 votes - Askthepizzaguy (211), Astral Rejection (223), Inner Stickler (224), DiggitCamara (228), septimus (252) **Silver Jan** - 4 votes - Astral Rejection (190), Askthepizzaguy (211), DaphneBlack (220), Captain Klutz (240) **Astral Rejection** - 3 votes - wevets (177), DaphneBlack (225), Chronos (237) **Mahaloth** - 2 votes - Chronos (104), sinjin (149) **Askthepizzaguy** - 2 votes - sinjin (149), Chronos (237) **Idle Thoughts** - 2 votes - wevets (177), Johnny Bravo (189) **sinjin** - 1 vote - Askthepizzaguy (151) **Inner Stickler** - 1 vote - wevets (177) **Chronos** - 1 vote - wevets (177) **septimus** - 1 vote - Daphne Black (220) * * * Day One to end at 12:00PM Eastern time on Wednesday, February 19. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/255 "2014-02-15T14:34:57Z")
> [@Darth\_Sensitive](#): > > 1. Why would you advocate posting all clues, but not include your own? It feels odd, but I am not advocating that you post what you have > > 2. We don’t need to reveal our clues - how many do you think will be contradictory? I would guess that most clues will be right or wrong on their own merits. None of the clues that have been posted make me think clues will contradict each other. > > 3. **Mahaloth** , I update my question to you: what is your current stance on the revealing of clues? It is not clear to me, nor to others, I think. I hacked that quote above up quite a bit, but I think I was able to add numbers to the questions for my corresponding answers. 1. I’m wasn’t necessarily advocating it, just saying I had considered it. 2. I have no idea how many may be contradictory and don’t think we need to reveal our clues. I said nothing like that. I was simply saying I don’t get how the clues can possibly help us if we have no way to determine which ones are false and which ones are valid. 3. I guess not. I hadn’t seen the part about it being bad to share them and it definitely seems like no one wants to. I think I got all your Q’s in there. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/256 "2014-02-15T14:46:18Z")
Unvote Idle Thoughts I need to go back and reread the cases on DaphneBlack and Silver Jan now. ---
**Author:** ![TexCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/texcat/32/9041_2.png) [@TexCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TexCat)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/257 "2014-02-15T15:59:40Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > > [@Captain\_Klutz](#): > > > > Okay, if he is Langdale Pike then he is not James Moriarty. But how does that stop him from being scum? > > It doesn’t, but it excludes him from being a candidate for James Moriarty, who is known scum. Which means he is mathematically less likely to be scum than anyone else in possession of a true clue. Or Langdale Pike could be one of the fake cover characters given to the scum team. Moriarty might be able to assume his character. ---
**Author:** ![TexCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/texcat/32/9041_2.png) [@TexCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TexCat)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/258 "2014-02-15T16:35:05Z")
We know that giving our clues away will help scum. This is word of mod. > [@](#): > > I will state for the record that I have by various means attempted to ensure that public reveal of certain clues or other information may not always benefit the side of the player given the clue. We also know that some of the clues will be false and might lead us in the wrong direction. I suspect that even clues that appear innocuous may help scum in some way. I said before, > [@TexCat](#): > > What if our clues help identify us to scum? For example, perhaps a scum clue looks like: Sherlock’s clue talks about false identities. Or, Dr. Watson’s clue talks about a Godfather. **I would suggest that everyone keeps their clue secret unless it is strictly helpful to town in some way, not merely if it looks benign**. Septimus played not the scum-wouldn’t-do-that card, but the mod-wouldn’t-do-that card: > [@septimus](#): > > I doubt if Storyteller is sadistic enough to use pro-Scum meta-clues like that. The post almost pings me. What is “almost pings” anyway? An “almost smudge”? Sinjin, however, confirms that not only would the mod do that, but the mod has done that: > [@sinjin](#): > > \*\*Storyyteller \*\*was sadistic enough to do something similar in the “Blade Runner” game. He gave clues to each of the masons about the scum team and the PFK team which eventually led to the demise of the PFKs who ignored his advice about leaking information. A closer look at the clues so far coming up, but in the meantime, \*\*vote: Septimus \*\* for his wishy-washy, could go either way “almost pings” remark. And for playing the mod-wouldn’t-do-that card, thereby encouraging town to continue posting their clues. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/259 "2014-02-15T17:29:32Z")
Miss Mignon [Estelle Anderson](http://www.thanhouser.org/tcocd/Biography_Files/eb_sp0.htm) was a actress in the early 20th century. She starred in the Sherlock Holmes movie _**[Sherlock Holmes Solves The Sign of the Four](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0272844/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast)**_. So Idle, not only are you female, as you are every April 1, you’re also an actress! 🆒 Or this is just a coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![TexCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/texcat/32/9041_2.png) [@TexCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TexCat)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/260 "2014-02-15T18:15:29Z")
The clues so far: Chronos: CLUE: James Moriarty, the Scum leader, can lose his Godfather status under some conditions. [91](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17100201&postcount=91) Dizzy: CLUE: Scum players have all been given complete, detailed false identities, including clues. [118](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17101704&postcount=118) Gnarly: CLUE: All ties are resolved via [random.org](http://random.org). [186](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17104479&postcount=186) Septimus: CLUE: One Scum player, a woman, has a power that targets protective roles. If her target is protected, the player doing the protecting will die. [187](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17104591&postcount=187) Pizza: CLUE: A man named Langdale Pike is in possession of false information that should be ignored. [210](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17105750&postcount=210) How are these clues helpful to Town, even if true? Chronos’ clue is helpful to Town because we learn that M is a Godfather. It is more helpful to M, in that he learns he might lose that status. Dizzy’s clue is helpful, but we might have deduced it. Gnarly’s clue is entirely unhelpful. We didn’t know how ties resolved before, and all this tells us is that they are resolved randomly. Not any better than not knowing. Besides we know ties are bad, and in a multi-vote game they are easier to resolve. Septimus uses his clue as an excuse to vote Idle. Pizza’s might be useful if we knew who Langdale Pike is. I would vote Septimus out of this bunch, but I already have. **vote: Gnarly** for risking helping scum while not helping town at all [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752.md?page=14)