# Mafia: Baker Street \[Game in progress\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 7, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752 "2014-02-07T14:39:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/261 "2014-02-15T18:59:31Z")
Can I ask the people who are voting for me if they are voting for me for “sounding uncomfortable” or “asking questions” (or the third vote rule\*) or if they have anything else? Because I can’t really defend against the former, and I suggest to you that it is not a case which is likely to net you many scum. Zero scum, in the case of me. If there’s something else bugging you, please be explicit so that I can address it. I am less suspicious of **Mahaloth** now that he finally answered my question. But I remain strongly concerned that people are not thinking through the implications of clue reveal. Now, I have a few more direct questions! I see Mafia as a mass interrogation. I guess this is not a universal view. But I amn’t stopping. [memo to Pizza: it is def. a personality quirk of mine. Have you played with **guiri**? I think he and I have similar styles.] **sinjin** : what is your view on Idle’s claim at the moment? **wevets** : what do you think about Silver Jan? [Apologies if you have already commented on her] **Dizzymrslizzy** : You don’t like random votes. How should people vote at the beginning of day one? Is a crap reason better than no reason at all? **Pizza** : You accuse sinjin of being aggressive. How is her aggression different than yours? We still haven’t heard from several players at all. [\*More meta-TVR: in a multivote game no less. In the same post I “TVed” **Silver Jan** , I also voted **Septimus** , remember.] ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/262 "2014-02-15T19:24:26Z")
**Idle** ’s claim: 1. I hate it when he does this. 2. I played in at least one game where he did this as scum and several games where he was town. 3. Vanilla town claims, if true, reduce the size of the pond town power roles swim in, so I think this is a very anti-town thing to do. But as others have said, anti-town play /= scum. 4. I think it’s an anti-town thing to do when he has a town power role too for obvious reasons. 5. When he claims a power role, I read the role carefully to see if it has internal contradictions or irregularities, but there’s not much to read into a vanilla role pm. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Sensitive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Darth\_Sensitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Sensitive)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/263 "2014-02-15T19:50:01Z")
> [@sinjin](#): > > **Idle** ’s claim: > > 1. I hate it when he does this. > 2. I played in at least one game where he did this as scum and several games where he was town. > 3. Vanilla town claims, if true, reduce the size of the pond town power roles swim in, so I think this is a very anti-town thing to do. But as others have said, anti-town play /= scum. > 4. I think it’s an anti-town thing to do when he has a town power role too for obvious reasons. > 5. When he claims a power role, I read the role carefully to see if it has internal contradictions or irregularities, but there’s not much to read into a vanilla role pm. Does **Idle** always claim vanilla town? For some reason I got that impression - the odds are that’s what he’ll be in most game. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/264 "2014-02-15T19:56:22Z")
> [@Darth\_Sensitive](#): > > Does **Idle** always claim vanilla town? For some reason I got that impression - the odds are that’s what he’ll be in most game. There are many games that are all power roles. I have seen him claim Dr. (I think) and Investigator and I can’t remember what all else. ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/265 "2014-02-15T20:21:04Z")
**sinjin** , fair enough. Can’t disagree with much of what you said. The other usual day one claimer doesn’t seem to have shown up yet… ---
**Author:** ![Scathach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Scathach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scathach)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/266 "2014-02-15T20:47:36Z")
Sorry everyone - I haven’t forgotten this game, but I’m swamped with work at the moment (plus trying to look for a new job at the same time). ---
**Author:** ![Scathach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Scathach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scathach)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/267 "2014-02-15T21:06:35Z")
Just a note - my clue refers to how tied lynches are resolved, but frankly I suspect it of being false. I’ll reveal if people think it’s a good idea. > [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > Reasons for these votes given in above massive post. Separating for ease of visibility. > > \*\*Vote Silver Jan > > Vote DaphneBlack > \*\* > > My current votes are Darth Sensitive and Sinjin. > > Let’s cut Darth a break, we can return to him. My votes are meaningless if they’re spread too thin. Plus, votes on Silver Jan and Daphne are based on content, not meta. > > **Unvote Darth Sensitive** I can see Pizza’s point on DaphneBlack. Not so much on Silver Jan. > [@Chronos](#): > > OK, this is mostly going to be in response to **Pizza** , just because he’s done a lot of talking: > > Vanilla claims are far safer for Scum than power claims are. Anyone who claims a power role first of all risks a counterclaim, and second must account for how they’re using their powers. Both of those are always risky. Claiming vanilla is only risky _if_ you’re doing something active _and_ there’s either a tracker in the game or a very lucky watcher. > > And yet, you’re handing out the townie card to the same person, based on the same post. Yeah, I really don’t get Pizza’s point about vanilla being a bad role to claim for scum. I don’t know if he’s deliberately being misleading or falsely extrapolating from his own playstyle to what others would do. That said, I’m coming down on the side of townie Pizza for the moment because I agree with a lot of what he says. Idle Thoughts I think is also almost certainly town. ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/268 "2014-02-15T21:15:31Z")
> [@Scathach](#): > > I can see Pizza’s point on DaphneBlack. > > [snip] > > That said, I’m coming down on the side of townie Pizza for the moment because I agree with a lot of what he says. Can you indulge me by telling me what you think **Pizza** ’s point on **DaphneBlack** is? I don’t like this second quote at all. I think that kind of thinking is seductive though, not necessarily indicative of scumminess. ---
**Author:** ![Scathach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Scathach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scathach)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/269 "2014-02-15T21:17:20Z")
> [@DaphneBlack](#): > > Fine, **Astral** , but I think you are mistaken about the accuracy of the third vote tell. But you are right, you will stand or fall on the votes you make, and you have given a reason, even if I don’t like it. > > I really would like to know what is ‘unnatural’ about asking direct questions. I’m not the one who made the case, but there is a certain unnaturalness about the way you jumped in and in one short post engaged with a lot of people. It almost seems calculated and an effort to be seen as townie. That said, I don’t know if it’s your common playstyle. I would think nothing of it coming from, e.g. Guiri, because that’s how he always plays. ---
**Author:** ![Scathach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Scathach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scathach)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/270 "2014-02-15T21:18:44Z")
Sorry Daphne, simulposted with you, but fortunately I’m actually answering your question anyway 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Scathach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Scathach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scathach)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/271 "2014-02-15T21:22:54Z")
> [@TexCat](#): > > Gnarly: CLUE: All ties are resolved via [random.org](http://random.org). [186](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17104479&postcount=186) You know what, I missed this on first read (sorry, I admit to skimming), but gnarlycharlie’s clue is the same one as I have. Which I guess means it’s less likely to be false, although I am surprised that that’s the lynch resolution method. ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/272 "2014-02-15T21:44:36Z")
Thanks for the reply, **Scathach**. I don’t wish to obsess about myself, but since I’m the vote leader for weird and specious reasons I feel a bit entitled. It strikes me as bizarre to assert that the only truly townie way to be is totally casual and offhand. I’m writing calculated posts – calculated to try to figure out who the scum are, by various means, in particular by asking people questions. I’m baffled that this is seen as suspicious behavior. It is more formal and perhaps even “stilted” but I cannot see anything about that which is indicative of alignment. It’s indicative of style, sure. The dots, they are not connecting. This is a bad case. ---
**Author:** ![Scathach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Scathach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scathach)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/273 "2014-02-15T21:59:35Z")
> [@DaphneBlack](#): > > Thanks for the reply, **Scathach**. > > I don’t wish to obsess about myself, but since I’m the vote leader for weird and specious reasons I feel a bit entitled. > > It strikes me as bizarre to assert that the only truly townie way to be is totally casual and offhand. I’m writing calculated posts – calculated to try to figure out who the scum are, by various means, in particular by asking people questions. I’m baffled that this is seen as suspicious behavior. > > It is more formal and perhaps even “stilted” but I cannot see anything about that which is indicative of alignment. It’s indicative of style, sure. The dots, they are not connecting. This is a bad case. I’m not voting you yet. I think sometimes people put too much weight on appearing blazé and uncaring as a townie because I know that I do feel under pressure to appear townie even if I am town. It’s hard to write uncalculated posts, because you know people are going to scrutinise them. I still think it’s a better case than the others floated today though. ---
**Author:** ![Dizzymrslizzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Dizzymrslizzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dizzymrslizzy)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/274 "2014-02-16T03:13:39Z")
**Vote: Sinjin** Since my one before didn’t work right. Ugh ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/275 "2014-02-16T03:38:07Z")
> [@Dizzymrslizzy](#): > > **Vote: Sinjin** > > Since my one before didn’t work right. Ugh So, just to be clear: you are voting me for being a “tad to aggressive” in voting for **Mahaloth**? ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Jan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Silver\_Jan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Jan)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/276 "2014-02-16T06:17:05Z")
I don’t really know what to say about the votes on me, I am usually cautious and careful, maybe I should change my playstyle. One thing I can say now though is that my clue looks to be accurate. Scum could still take advantage of it though. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/277 "2014-02-16T16:23:03Z")
> [@Scathach](#): > > You know what, I missed this on first read (sorry, I admit to skimming), but gnarlycharlie’s clue is the same one as I have. Which I guess means it’s less likely to be false, although I am surprised that that’s the lynch resolution method. Wait, I missed this the first time through… you’re saying you and gnarlycharlie have identical clues? And in the post you notice this, you don’t find anything weird enough about that to mention? :dubious: I’m calling shenanigans on one of you. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/278 "2014-02-16T16:34:15Z")
I went back through the thread (thanks to everyone for not making Day 1 a rocket to 50 pages!) and reread gnarly and Scathach. Nothing jumps out at me as super scummy between the two… but nothing jumps out as super townie, either. I’d give Scathach the nod for “more likely to be townie” for her efforts to catch up, which seem more townieish than gnarly’s participation so far. There just isn’t much to work with. So… as weird as I think this is, I can’t work out what I should do about it. 1. I don’t believe two town players would get the same clue. 2. I don’t believe Storyteller would give a town player and a scum player the same clue, so that town could “catch” a scum, or make a 1-1 trade. 3. I don’t believe gnarly or Scatchach is lying about their clues, because Scathach says it’s the same, and I assume it’s identical or she would have mentioned otherwise. 4. I don’t believe gnarly and Scathach are BOTH scum trying out some crazy meta strategy where we “clear” one or the other, because that’s crazy. 5. I don’t believe this is the potential “bad result” Story promised for revealing clues. 6. I don’t believe this is a Storyteller mistake, because his games have been very well organized. What am I missing? I’ve pretty much ruled out every possibility, so I’m making a mistake somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/279 "2014-02-16T16:40:33Z")
I don’t think you have much basis for ruling out choices 1, 2, or 5. Why wouldn’t storyteller give out the same clue twice, especially to two townies? He’s already told us that revealing clues might be bad: revealing a clue that’s been doubled up is definitely bad because it leads to discussions like this. I think the _most likely_ scenario is that he gave the same clue to two townies, knowing that it might lead to a false lynching. I think the second most likely scenario is that gnarly is a scummer who was given a “cover clue” to use as part of an overall cover identity and it ended up being the same as one of ours. Story did say that revealing clues could be bad for both sides: not just for town. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752/280 "2014-02-16T16:49:28Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > I don’t think you have much basis for ruling out choices 1, 2, or 5. Why wouldn’t storyteller give out the same clue twice, especially to two townies? You’re probably right, I made no effort to weight which one I found most likely while composing that post. I still just find each of the possibilities so unlikely. If Story gave the same clue to two townies, the potential is that we lynch one and investigate the other, or lynch both. Game design is forcing our hands into some kind of action, and I don’t like that. So on a visceral level, I really hope it’s not that option. 😃 As for #2… again, I feel that it’s _bad_ design. That seriously hurts scum through no action of their own, but by the very setup of the game. I believe #1 is far more likely than #2. #5, you’re right, this could be the sort of thing Story warned us about… but I really expected it to be something that actively assists scum, not something that passively ties town’s hands until they deal with the quandary. The point of mafia is that scum has knowledge, and town doesn’t… so if I was designing a clue system, I’d make clues that subvert that knowledge imbalance further. Handing scum a mislynch seems… off? Maybe I’m just overthinking this. If I had to rank them, I’d say #1 is most likely, even thought I don’t like it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-baker-street-game-in-progress/680752.md?page=15)