# Mafia: Cecilvania \[Game Over\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 13, 2008, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-cecilvania-game-over/449111 "2008-05-13T00:37:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-cecilvania-game-over/449111/441 "2008-05-21T17:47:01Z")
[QUOTE=Koldanar] **OAOW** : I like the case here. Initially, back in post #220, I was pinged a little when he? (Correct, yes?) removed a vote for Cat and then quoted Cat as a reason to vote Shadow. Then, in post #296, switches vote again very quickly with almost no case stated beyond calling it a slip. [/QUOTE] You took exception to my removing my random vote? Really? Seriously, at this point you may as well let this lynch go through. I am only a vanilla, so no great loss to town. Make sure story is pressed tomorrow, and look at the reasons of everyone voting me. Very few of the votes on me have a reasonable case behind them. I mean Koldanar just voted me and cited my removal of my random vote! That’s a new one on me. And as for jumping on story immediately, well yeah, I like to pressure people when they make a huge slip like perfect knowledge of scum numbers. Koldanar just ,ade my potential scum list. ---
**Author:** ![Koldanar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@Koldanar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koldanar)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-cecilvania-game-over/449111/442 "2008-05-21T17:49:30Z")
[QUOTE=One And Only Wanderers] You took exception to my removing my random vote? Really? Seriously, at this point you may as well let this lynch go through. I am only a vanilla, so no great loss to town. Make sure story is pressed tomorrow, and look at the reasons of everyone voting me. Very few of the votes on me have a reasonable case behind them. I mean Koldanar just voted me and cited my removal of my random vote! That’s a new one on me. And as for jumping on story immediately, well yeah, I like to pressure people when they make a huge slip like perfect knowledge of scum numbers. Koldanar just ,ade my potential scum list. [/QUOTE] It’s not your random vote removal, but rather your “yea, me too” and voting how Cat voted. You have had 2 posts where you voted, and rather than spelled things out, jumped immediately on a person. Once was the Me, Too, and once was story’s ‘slip’. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-cecilvania-game-over/449111/443 "2008-05-21T17:53:39Z")
[QUOTE=Koldanar] It’s not your random vote removal, but rather your “yea, me too” and voting how Cat voted. You have had 2 posts where you voted, and rather than spelled things out, jumped immediately on a person. Once was the Me, Too, and once was story’s ‘slip’. [/QUOTE] why is ‘slip’ in quotes? If story rreally is the cop, the only way you could be sure of this is by being scum, as you would then know he is town, and town don’t lie. Everyone else, whether they believe him or not has at least acknowledged it was in fact a slip. But to you it is a ‘slip’ **vote Koldanar** ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-cecilvania-game-over/449111/444 "2008-05-21T17:58:05Z")
[QUOTE=DiggitCamara] Dude: Now you’re (implicitly) defending **OAOW**??? I find that very interesting. Perfect knowledge abounding? [/QUOTE] Wow, that was a nice smudge. > [@Darth Sensitive](#): > > WF Tomba - I’m looking harder at you. Wishy washy was the wrong word to describe what you said. I will call it stikingly noncommittal. I know that just about everyone in this game has moved to one side or another of the patented Patented Darth Sensetive Scumometer, and the way that you are carefully not saying anything is moving you into the red. You can’t really find it suspicious that I didn’t have an opinion about **Fretful Porpentine** on Monday. This sounds like feigned suspicion to me. Both of you guys are pinging me. Of course, **Blaster Master** is pinging me most of all, but the problem is he _always_ seems suspicious to me, no matter what side he’s on. I’ll hold off on him for a while. If he keeps insisting against reason that **OAOW** FOSed him for unvoting **story** , I may change my mind. For now, **Vote DiggitCamara** FOS **Darth Sensitive** ---
**Author:** ![Koldanar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@Koldanar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koldanar)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-cecilvania-game-over/449111/445 "2008-05-21T18:01:18Z")
[QUOTE=One And Only Wanderers] why is ‘slip’ in quotes? If story rreally is the cop, the only way you could be sure of this is by being scum, as you would then know he is town, and town don’t lie. Everyone else, whether they believe him or not has at least acknowledged it was in fact a slip. But to you it is a ‘slip’ **vote Koldanar** [/QUOTE] We can’t be 100% sure, EVER. This is a game about suspicion; I am accounting for that small chance it was orchestrated (though knowing story that is admittedly a bizzare situation). However it stands, I’m very happy with my vote for you. ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-cecilvania-game-over/449111/446 "2008-05-21T18:24:22Z")
[QUOTE=Koldanar] One other thing I wanted to consider; back in post #332, **Pollux Oil** makes a note about WF Tomba’s post that seemed to say alot but said nothing. Sometimes posts like this don’t sit with me well…it always appears to me as a scum trying to hide the fact that there is nothing to say here. [/QUOTE] This made me think of post 336, in which **ShadowFacts** similarly slipped a vague aspersion against me into the end of his post. I’m not sure if it’s just me being paranoid, but it’s starting to look like you, **Shadow** , and **Darth** are quietly stockpiling ammunition against me. Although on review, I realize that it was **Darth Sensitive** who challenged me initially, and openly, so at least he’s not being sneaky about it. If I FOS him I’ve got to FOS you two as well, I suppose. FOS **Koldanar** and **ShadowFacts** ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-cecilvania-game-over/449111/447 "2008-05-21T18:26:37Z")
[QUOTE=CatInASuit] **Hal Briston, Hockey Monkey** , given the type of Day 1 we are having with plenty of info being displayed and a lot of opinions being put forth, you have both been rather quiet and surprisingly neutral in general. So what are your opinions of the current events? [/QUOTE] The hell? I made a nice, long, substantive post (with a vote) yesterday, but it would seem that it became hamster chow without my realizing it. Crap. Well, the short version of it was my suspicion that **OAOW** played **storyteller** to the hilt, his actions simply _reeked_ of a scum ploy to me, and it ended with: Vote **OAOW** Now that I’ve got that back on the record, I’m going to catch up on what’s happened since then. Updates/revisions to follow. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-cecilvania-game-over/449111/448 "2008-05-21T18:32:53Z")
**Clean Nosers** ; lacking in controversy or lurking (not a good thing) Koldanar Hal Briston - Lurker Nanook of the Northshore Pollux Oil Darth Sensitive Freudian Slit Hockey Monkey - Lurker **Claimed** Storyteller - I feel the burden of proof of his roleclaim is on him. **Leaning Town** Fretful Porpentine - “No Scout” comment strikes me as a town statement. I am troubled by her complacency regarding storyteller, but her response {storyteller attacking her seems like town} is reasonable. The main problem I have is whether or not I believe she is being genuine in being above storyteller’s attacks. Typical Town behavior is to react poorly to attacks from unknowns. OneAndOnlyWanderers - His reactions to storyteller were similar to my own. I don’t find his actions scummy. WFTomba - Strong disagreement with my free information stance strikes me as Town disagreement. i.e. I would have expected scum to be less disagreeable. **Don’t know** Diggit Camera - Wrong assessments of my posts make me distrustful; but hasn’t done anything of note. Roosh - long posts make me numb. Also suspicious of me. Has bizarre expectations of my playstyle. BlaM! - Established good presence. Posts are mostly informative and responsive to queries and elaboration. ShadowFacts - Got heat for voting Hockey Monkey while skipping Blaster Master. I don’t see any scum motivation for skipping Blaster Master. I’m mostly confused by the whole thing. CatInASuit - Main heat giver to ShadowFacts. Other than that, my impression is CatInASuit has been sticking to game mechanics discussion. Lynch Wolf/Dracula, roleclaims, game setup. **Me** sachertorte I’m against the OAOW lynch, but it seems I won’t be able to stop it. Also at this early point of the game I can’t offer a better candidate (well I can, but no one is going to bite). I ask everyone voting for OAOW to stop and re-read the events of yesterday and consider OAOW’s actions from the perspective of a Townie. Do his actions make sense? I think they do. I’m keen on lynching a clean noser, but not necessarily a lurker. My motivation lies in the “let Town attack itself” line of scum play. Who is participating enough to not get noticed for not participating, but not really contributing or putting themselves at risk. The danger of course is powerroles have motivation to be clean as well. More to come… ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-cecilvania-game-over/449111/449 "2008-05-21T18:45:27Z")
[QUOTE=Hal Briston] Well, the short version of it was my suspicion that **OAOW** played **storyteller** to the hilt, his actions simply _reeked_ of a scum ploy to me, and it ended with: [/QUOTE] See this is precisely my problem. When have scum employed tactics that REEKED? They don’t. Scum act subtly. Why does everyone think that a scummy OAOW would have played storyteller at all? storyteller’s roleclaim was imminent. Scum would more likely sit back and watch storyteller claim. Why would scum push to have that claim sooner? What does this gain scum? Gah! ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-cecilvania-game-over/449111/450 "2008-05-21T18:50:40Z")
Who wants a VOTE COUNT? As we approach the 24 hour mark (for time remaining) I thought it might be nice to give you all a vote count. Several of you haven’t voted yet. And a couple of you aren’t posting enough…you know who you are. Anyway: Day 1 Vote Count (as of Post 448): 8- **OAOW** : Fretful Porpentine, Blaster Master, storyteller, Freudian Slit, RoOsh, Nanook,Koldanar, Hal Briston, 1- **Diggit** : WF Tomba 1- **Koldanar** : OAOW 1- **Hockey Monkey** : ShadowFacts 1- **sachertorte** : DiggitCamara And that, as the say, is that. Remember the Day ends tomorrow 4pm EDT (hope I got the time right) 1PM my time. Later for folks in England, earlier for folks in Hawaii, for you folks in the fly-over states it is sometime in between and if any of you live in Australia…good luck to you. 25 hours and 10 minutes till lynch time, give or take a minute. Good luck, stay safe, don’t wander about at Night. MWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! ---
**Author:** ![Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook_of_the_North_Shore)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-cecilvania-game-over/449111/451 "2008-05-21T18:50:58Z")
[QUOTE=sachertorte] If I recall correctly, Blam had a false claim. zuma claimed Joe Cool or something, Blam stated his power prevents scum from winning. That doesn’t sound vanilla to me. [/quote] I didn’t say he was vanilla, in fact I specifically stated that he wasn’t. But no one backed off from voting for him based on his role claim, which was my point. They backed off because he presented a reasonable defense, which is what a vanilla town would do. > [@](#): > > My point is, just because scum might have not claimed in the past is no reason to think that trend will continue! The evidence suggests that false claiming is superior to sitting back and getting lynched. Those scum who allowed themselves to be lynched early probably should have false claimed! What did not false claiming buy them? You say yourself that town has lynched scum early a few times. Don’t you think that those scum lynchees would have benefitted from a false claim? Do you think scum avoid false claiming for some reason? If there is a reason, I’d love to hear it. Here though you make a good point. I guess I did fall into the trap of considering the past too much when making my argument. Obviously, it’s not possible to really say what might have happened in past games if the scum had claimed. It might have saved them and it might not have. I can’t really say what reason scum would have for not doing something, since I’ve never played scum so I don’t have experience with their mindset. One thing I learned in Simpletown was that you can read and follow along with these games all you want, but there’s a world of difference between knowing how the game goes, and actually BEING in the game and experiencing it as it happens. One reason I could think of to avoid false claiming though is that it is at best a delaying tactic. This is fine later in the game where a delay of even one Day can mean the difference between winning and losing, but not all that great early. On the other hand, a more classical defense, where you answer the points raised against you and make a good case for yourself will most likely keep you alive much longer. The downside of course is this is very difficult to pull off, at least if the case against you is solid. On preview, I see you have listed me as a clean noser. I’m not sure what to make of that. I don’t see myself as lurking at all really, so I guess you don’t see me as involved in controversy. Which is weird since we’ve been having this back and forth, and I had a few similar ones earlier with CIAS and others. Then again, the same thing happened in Simpletown. Maybe my posts are just invisible to others 😛 ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-cecilvania-game-over/449111/452 "2008-05-21T19:04:18Z")
[QUOTE=Nanook of the North Shore] One reason I could think of to avoid false claiming though is that it is at best a delaying tactic. This is fine later in the game where a delay of even one Day can mean the difference between winning and losing, but not all that great early. [/QUOTE] Delaying is good for scum! For all we know storyteller is the scout, and each lynch he avoids is another night he can use his power. You might be right that I’m just not picking up on you. I need to do a re-read, but I need to do some work first. I’m not going to vote for OAOW, so my vote won’t affect anything. I’ll still try and figure out the best place to put it though. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-cecilvania-game-over/449111/453 "2008-05-21T19:05:58Z")
[QUOTE=One And Only Wanderers] The key part was, if we lynch him today, and he comes up cop, we have gained nothing. If we postpone the lynch till tomorrow, and he is telling the truth, we get an investigation result, or find out that there is definitely a scum RB. Hence waiting until tomorrow seems the logical thing to do. [/QUOTE] Yes, and this was just as true when he claimed and you said you weren’t inclined to unvote him as it was after the next post of his when you finally did unvote him. I want to know what changed your mind. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-cecilvania-game-over/449111/454 "2008-05-21T19:11:33Z")
[QUOTE=CatInASuit] Ok, I’ll agree that any townie getting vamped is a bad thing and yes it would be nice if Dracula decided to off themselves through Wolf poisoning but I do have one question to ask. What I don’t understand is: **Why is lynching Dracula a waste?** Dracula is an anti-town faction preventing the town from winning. How is it not beneficial to lynch Dracula? 😕 This question is open to all, not just \*\*storyteller \*\* seeing as he has gone for a goodly while. [/QUOTE] I agree with this, too. I mean, the sooner he does, we’re that much closer to winning. Because if we do kill all wolves, and Dracula’s alive, then that’s all he needs to win. Sure, we could let him maybe try to bite a wolf and die, but who wants to take that chance? ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-cecilvania-game-over/449111/455 "2008-05-21T19:17:31Z")
[QUOTE=Freudian Slit] I agree with this, too. I mean, the sooner he does, we’re that much closer to winning. Because if we do kill all wolves, and Dracula’s alive, then that’s all he needs to win. [/QUOTE] No, he also needs Vampires to outnumber Town. If we kill all Wolves and Dracula’s alive but alone, no one will have won yet and Dracula’s chances will depend on how many Town players are left. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-cecilvania-game-over/449111/456 "2008-05-21T19:18:41Z")
Blaster Master, I think you are assuming that he thought through all possible ramifications of storyteller’s roleclaim. Furthermore you are requiring that OAOW see all the possibilities of storyteller’s claim, which I don’t see as fair. storyteller roleclaims at 2:23PM EDT OAOW’s first reaction is at 2:32PM EDT: OAOW reacted to storyteller’s pointing out of the scum roleblocker first. He didn’t think about information possibilities. I think that is reasonable. storyteller mentions the idea of information gain at 2:57PM EDT. OAOW unvotes at 3:07PM EDT. So yes, while it is true that information gain was always a possibility, I don’t think it is fair to say that OAOW is required to have thought of it immediately after storyteller roleclaimed. Once the notion of information gain was put on the table, OAOW unvoted. Looks clean to me. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-cecilvania-game-over/449111/457 "2008-05-21T19:28:57Z")
[QUOTE=One And Only Wanderers] \*Shadow makes his post count analysis, but votes Hockey over Blaster due to expected content from Blaster CIAS attacks him for this, I agree and join in\* Now my reasons for this were 3 fold 1. I do not think the lynch lurkers reasoning is useful in this particular game. There is already a mechanism in place to force people to post. If they don’t get the requisite number of posts in a day they are gine anyway 2. I agreed with CIAS’s reasoning 3. I wanted to see who would join the wagon, how shadow would defend, who would defend him and whyk, and if the wagon got going who would jump off it and when. Basically I thought it would be a good vehicle to get some info. [/quote] Lynching lurkers is still potentially valid; I have used it more than once in the past as part of a case against scum. A lurker isn’t necessarily someone who doesn’t post, it’s someone who doesn’t post a lot. Making four substantive posts is very easy, and it’s quite simple for someone to meet that threshold, maybe even post a few more, make them innocent and read well, and not post much else so that they stay in the game but stay below the radar. Further, lurking is relative. Let’s say we have a normal sort of game, with the top posters doing about 40 posts or so a day, the rest of the people around 20-25, and the low posters in the teens. A lurker would be someone with probably less than 10 posts. OTOH, if we have a very active Day and the top posters do 80-100, the average is around 60-70, then lurking could potentially be as high as about 30-40 Bottom line, the only thing the 4 post rule does is auto-prune players who stop playing, it doesn’t force people to not lurk. > [@](#): > > _Blaster says I look scummy if story doesn’t come up scum. Actually he says if story doesn’t come up wolf._ > > Interesting on 2 counts. Firstly why did you phrase it as wolf instead of scum? Do you have some reason for knowing he isn’t Dracula? > > Also, story coming up cop does not make me scum. Trying to set up a double lynch there Vlad? This is complete hogwash. The point is that I believe your behavior is consistent with a wolf. Thus, you’re interested in getting us to lynch anyone who isn’t a wolf, so town, great for you. However, because you all don’t know who Dracula is, if **storyteller** were lynched and showed up Dracula, it doesn’t reflect any better on you than if he showed up town. **Storyteller** coming up as town (which means he’d telling the truth about being a detective) or showing up as Dracula is consistent with you being a wolf, believing he has a power role, and pressuring him for a claim. Further, how does this make me look like Dracula? Just an ill-advised smudge or a hint at secret knowledge that I’m not a wolf? > [@](#): > > \*Blaster defends my unvote > > Blaster votes me for FOSing him Again, a misrepresentation of the events. I won’t bother to say why again because I’ve already stated it at least three or four times. > [@](#): > > story - Yeah I think he’s scum. The vamp thing was the odd one. Why are you worried about being bitten? This would be a good thing wouldn’t it? > > Blaster - I’m beginning to think he is pale with pointy teeth > > Freudian -just for the wagoning without stated case. Yes, I may be a little pale, it is only spring, but I assure you I don’t have pointy teeth. 😛 Again, I’m failing to see your case against me as anything more than OMGUS at best. What makes you think I’m Dracula and not a wolf? you specifically say “Yeah, I think [storyteller is] scum” but you make a point of saying I’m Dracula. Suspicion of me, fine, whatever, but this distinction is suspect based on the evidence presented. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-cecilvania-game-over/449111/458 "2008-05-21T19:36:33Z")
[QUOTE=sachertorte] Blaster Master, I think you are assuming that he thought through all possible ramifications of storyteller’s roleclaim. Furthermore you are requiring that OAOW see all the possibilities of storyteller’s claim, which I don’t see as fair. storyteller roleclaims at 2:23PM EDT OAOW’s first reaction is at 2:32PM EDT: OAOW reacted to storyteller’s pointing out of the scum roleblocker first. He didn’t think about information possibilities. I think that is reasonable. storyteller mentions the idea of information gain at 2:57PM EDT. OAOW unvotes at 3:07PM EDT. So yes, while it is true that information gain was always a possibility, I don’t think it is fair to say that OAOW is required to have thought of it immediately after storyteller roleclaimed. Once the notion of information gain was put on the table, OAOW unvoted. Looks clean to me. [/QUOTE] **sachetorte** , again with the strange defenses. Timing, IMO, is moot. This is a game of veterans, so I think it’s only fair to expect some basic pieces of game logic to be standard. One of those pieces is to unvote certain claims (like doctor, detective, and mason) unless there’s good reason to do so. Not buying the claim is not good reason to do so. I find the motivation that he was pressuring him, probably expecting a different claim, was caught off-guard, and made a mistake, and took the first opportunity he could to correct it, far more likely. I think the off-guard aspect is fairly reasonable because **storyteller** ’s “I have a claimable role” made it seem like he was probably going to claim mason rather than detective. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-cecilvania-game-over/449111/459 "2008-05-21T19:46:20Z")
[QUOTE=CatInASuit] Ok, I’ll agree that any townie getting vamped is a bad thing and yes it would be nice if Dracula decided to off themselves through Wolf poisoning but I do have one question to ask. What I don’t understand is: **Why is lynching Dracula a waste?** Dracula is an anti-town faction preventing the town from winning. How is it not beneficial to lynch Dracula? 😕 This question is open to all, not just \*\*storyteller \*\* seeing as he has gone for a goodly while. [/QUOTE] Lynching **Dracula** isn’t necessarily a waste, but it is sub-optimal. We have 17 players, so we if assume 4 wolves and Dracula, that’s 12-4-1. A lynch Dracula essentially gives the scum a free Night, that would leave a ratio of 11-4 (3 mislynches to get to 5-4, it takes 2 Doc protects to make it 4 mislynches). OTOH, if he kills himself, it makes it 12-4 (again, 3 mislynches, but it only takes 1 Doc protection to make it 4). The optimal solution is for the Wolves to actually use a Night kill on him making it 4 mislynches even without a Doc protection. That said, he IS an anti-town and needs to die, but it’s certainly best to try to one of the latter two scenarios to occur if we can. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-cecilvania-game-over/449111/460 "2008-05-21T20:01:53Z")
[QUOTE=sachertorte] I’ve reviewed the OAOW situation and I’m drawing the conclusion that OAOW’s actions are not discernibly scummy in my opinion. Part of it might be because I had the same initial thoughts as OAOW when storyteller claimed claimable. My feeling was storyteller was going to have to claim and nothing was going to stop that, so I questioned the delay (in my head). I dismissed the scumminess of the delay because I figured making up a false claim wouldn’t be that time consuming. [New Thought: A secondary scumminess of the delay that I just thought of is the fact that storyteller wouldn’t be available to discuss his roleclaim if he claimed at 5PM. He had rehearsal that night and would be busy all of Wednesday. Do we really think a roleclaim then disappearing until Thursday morning is good for the Town? Now I’m thinking OAOW’s press was a good thing.] Anyway, I don’t hold OAOW’s pressing storyteller for the claim as bad. storyteller had already hinted that he was a powerrole so I don’t see the downside of OAOW’s pressing. [/quote] My issue with OAOW’s pressure is that it went farther than it needed to. I’d already asked storyteller if he was claiming to have a power role after he alluded to it. Beyond that point, there’s not really any reason. If he claims mason, he’s probably telling the truth, if he claims Doc or Detective, he may or may not be telling the truth, but we’re still going to unvote him anyway. The pressure after he said he had a claimable role may or may not have been scummy, but it was certainly anti-town. > [@](#): > > So that leaves me with Blaster Master’s explanation of OAOW precluding himself from protown reasons for unvoting storyteller. Blaster Master says he will accept two reasons for unvoting storyteller: > > 1. Think storyteller is telling the truth > 2. Think storyteller is scum but that the risks are too high to lynch him > Blaster Master asserts that OAOW statements preclude him from either of these two points of view. For the most part I agree. Clearly OAOW thinks storyteller is lying. Point #2 I think there is some wiggle room, but for now let’s say Blaster Master is right and OAOW isn’t worried about risks. > OAOW’s is willing to leave storyteller alive for information. > I feel this is an acceptable option #3 for a reason to unvote storyteller. > OAOW does not think storyteller is telling the truth, he does not think lynching him is too risky, but he acknowledges that lynching Tomorrow instead of Today might yield information. You’re missing the crux of my point. If we assume those two points are true, the third point doesn’t make sense. Yes, leaving storyteller alive may gain us some information; however, if he’s lying we gain MORE information by lynching him. Since it’s clear that he thinks he’s lying, and risk was not his motivation then, at best, he’s holding a very illogical opinion that is decidedly lacking in pro-town motivation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-cecilvania-game-over/449111.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-cecilvania-game-over/449111.md?page=24)