# Mafia: Conspiracy 2: The Cabal Strikes Back! \[Game Over\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 9, 2008, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-conspiracy-2-the-cabal-strikes-back-game-over/452324 "2008-06-09T14:52:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-conspiracy-2-the-cabal-strikes-back-game-over/452324/361 "2008-06-17T13:30:17Z")
**Cat** - When I first read your post, my initialy response was “no, no, this is a terrible idea, forget it, what, is he crazy?” After a bit of ponderation, I’m not so sure. So I’m going to challenge some of your assertions a bit here, but consider me more of a devil’s advocate than a direct opponent of this plan. [QUOTE=CatInASuit] 1. It fixes the scum to a role. Everyone is going to claim at some point, it’s a game of power roles after all. [/quote] With you so far, but I don’t see this as a particular advantage. There is certainly no > [@](#): > > 1. Unless all the scum are going to mass claim as scum, they will pick town roles to hide behind. Otherwise they open themselves out to being picked off by the other scum factions. Here I disagree with you strongly on the latter half of your statement, though not on the former. The scum factions have no motivation, _none_, to pick off the other scum factions at Night. It’s a bit like the PFK in Batman. Any given scum faction would much prefer to kill Townies at Night, and get opposing Scum lynched during the Day. It’s cleaner and simpler that way. If a scum player claimed as such, the other scum factions would _never_ target that player, simply because we’d lynch that player sooner or later (probably sooner). But this is basically academic, because the scum aren’t going to claim as such. Yes, a true mass claim, in which everyone was perfectly honest, would ensure a scum victory (probably a Wolf victory, unless the Cabal guessed really well). But the scum aren’t operating collectively, they’re operating as individual groups, and as individual groups, none of them benefit from an open reveal. They’ll all claim Town roles. > [@](#): > > 1. Picking a town power role for the scum is not going to be easy, I want to remove the choice they have from later in the game when they can pick or choose which role seems appropriate. A better shot is to force them to claim now without any information about pro-town roles. That’s a sort of an interesting perspective. As you may know by now, I have somewhat recent experience with false claiming, and you’re right - the longer you can stall before you have to fake claim, the better your chances of developing a claim that fits within the setup of the game. Which is to say if there’s a mass claim and we have, for example, six claimed Vigilantes, we can probably safely assume that most of them are scum. > [@](#): > > 1. We will not lose town members as badly as everyone thinks. Look at it, we have several possible pro-town roles that can protect, redirect, curse and survive Night Kills. If the scum go after the town, we can make it very costly for them to do so. The other scum do not have those abilities. Not only that, but several of the scum will claim town and they will be in the firing line as well. > > Now, stop thinking this is just another normal game of Mafia, look at the setup and think about it. And here’s the chief problem with the plan as I see it. A fundamental element of the first Conspiracy game was the hidden powers. Scum and Town had hidden powers in the first game, and they affected the gameplay in ways that would have been impossible to predict looking at the game at its outset. We don’t know what the scum could do, given good information. > [@](#): > > Will some of the town lie about their powers? > > Possibly. But remember, if you are going to do so, ensure that if you decide to truthfully claim afterwards, you can back it up with your pro-town actions. And don’t forget you are likely to be joined by a lot of scum trying to hide as well. This is a huge problem. Certain pro-Town roles become absolutely useless if known. Their owners might be well-served by a lie, but once the Townies start lying it becomes impossible to distinguish Town from Scum except by blind luck. On balance, I need more convincing. But I, for one, am open to it. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-conspiracy-2-the-cabal-strikes-back-game-over/452324/362 "2008-06-17T13:38:44Z")
[QUOTE=storyteller0910] This is a huge problem. Certain pro-Town roles become absolutely useless if known. Their owners might be well-served by a lie, but once the Townies start lying it becomes impossible to distinguish Town from Scum except by blind luck. [/QUOTE] I agre wholeheartedly with this bit. If we do it, we do it with the intention of town claiming their true roles imo. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-conspiracy-2-the-cabal-strikes-back-game-over/452324/363 "2008-06-17T13:54:30Z")
Okay, CatInASuit, let’s go with your assumption that we’ll be able to see through scum falseclaims (which I still don’t buy). The wolves have no reason to attack other scum, so anytime they see a false roleclaim, they’ll know not to attack those people. The vamps have no reason to attack scum, either so they’ll aim at the sincere role-claimers. And the cabal is going to block the role that would cause the greatest confusion (because the cabal needs to go unnoticed, confusion is good for them). As has been said many times earlier, we NEED scum crossfire to win this one. The kind of mass roleclaim that _you_ want negates that. Unless you don’t mind not being able to find scum, in which case, what’s the point? The endgame, maybe? The endgame would be much easier if the witches and witchdoctor would be alive, and with a mass roleclaim, they won’t be by the endgame. Nope, I don’t see your proposal as anything but anti-town. OTOH, that doesn’t imply scum. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-conspiracy-2-the-cabal-strikes-back-game-over/452324/364 "2008-06-17T14:44:57Z")
About four hours until the end of Night Zero. This week is turning out to be unexpectedly busy for me at work. Please allow for slow responses from me. > [@Drain Bead](#): > > Are we even allowed to quote role PMs in this game? Yes. The only posting restrictions are the SDMB rules. And, note that role PMs are all listed in the rules (see sig for link), except for Secret Powers. [QUOTE=brewha] But, I’m relying on **Pleo** to have some type of game mechanism to prevent such a strategy from working. [/QUOTE] I believe this rules set is robust. That is, there are no strategies that will guarantee a win for any side. ---
**Author:** ![Koldanar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@Koldanar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koldanar)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-conspiracy-2-the-cabal-strikes-back-game-over/452324/365 "2008-06-17T15:16:05Z")
Man…you guys are nuts. 8 pages before day 1? 8 freakin pages!!! Though admittedly, we are allowed to strategize, so it’s not all fluff…but damn give a guy a break. Ugh. Comments on the roleclaim : I’m worried by how we will sort through all the noise? Multiple detectives, coroners, etc… all spread out, and reporting each day. What information would we be able to trust? Pleo’s already responded, so we do know he’s accounted for a mass roleclaim situation in some way in his design. ---
**Author:** ![Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook_of_the_North_Shore)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-conspiracy-2-the-cabal-strikes-back-game-over/452324/366 "2008-06-17T15:21:42Z")
I’m not sure how good an idea mass claiming is. Remember, in this set up each of the roles has an extra power in addition to the listed ones. Who knows what the scum get? Who knows what town bonus powers will be hurt by such a claim? And that doesn’t even get into the fact that it’s to the town’s benefit to have scum killing scum, which they would not be in a rush to do if everyone was outted. What won the original Conspiracy for town was the cross kills, wolves on Cabal, vamps on wolves etc. A mass role claim makes that unlikely to happen at best. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-conspiracy-2-the-cabal-strikes-back-game-over/452324/367 "2008-06-17T15:23:01Z")
There’s pros and cons to both, but I think it’s a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-conspiracy-2-the-cabal-strikes-back-game-over/452324/368 "2008-06-17T15:39:10Z")
[QUOTE=Nanook of the North Shore] I’m not sure how good an idea mass claiming is. **Remember, in this set up each of the roles has an extra power in addition to the listed ones**. Who knows what the scum get? Who knows what town bonus powers will be hurt by such a claim? And that doesn’t even get into the fact that it’s to the town’s benefit to have scum killing scum, which they would not be in a rush to do if everyone was outted. What won the original Conspiracy for town was the cross kills, wolves on Cabal, vamps on wolves etc. A mass role claim makes that unlikely to happen at best. [/QUOTE] bolding mine ummmm how do we know this exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Koldanar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@Koldanar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koldanar)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-conspiracy-2-the-cabal-strikes-back-game-over/452324/369 "2008-06-17T16:03:50Z")
[QUOTE=One And Only Wanderers] bolding mine ummmm how do we know this exactly? [/QUOTE] So..does this say more about your role PM, or his? ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-conspiracy-2-the-cabal-strikes-back-game-over/452324/370 "2008-06-17T16:07:00Z")
In Doperville, we had a true Detective claim and then a false one. I was _dead sure_ the real one wasn’t. Do we really want to get into that here from the get-go? ---
**Author:** ![Redwing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dfb087/32.png) [@Redwing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redwing)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-conspiracy-2-the-cabal-strikes-back-game-over/452324/371 "2008-06-17T16:11:12Z")
> [@Nanook of the North Shore](#): > > Remember, in this set up each of the roles has an extra power in addition to the listed ones. [QUOTE=One And Only Wanderers] ummmm how do we know this exactly? [/QUOTE] I believe it’s every that faction has secret powers. Some will be held collectively and some will be held by individuals. I don’t believe that there is anything in the rules about _every_ role having secret powers. ---
**Author:** ![Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook_of_the_North_Shore)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-conspiracy-2-the-cabal-strikes-back-game-over/452324/372 "2008-06-17T16:20:05Z")
It worked that way in the original Conspiracy, and I see no reason it would be different here. Off the top of my head, in that game, the vamp, coroner, Witchdoctor, Cabal, and witches all had extra, hidden powers. That doesn’t strike me as each faction, but I could be wrong about that. Interesting that you would latch onto that out of the whole post. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-conspiracy-2-the-cabal-strikes-back-game-over/452324/373 "2008-06-17T16:52:01Z")
[QUOTE=Nanook of the North Shore] **It worked that way in the original Conspiracy, and I see no reason it would be different here.** Off the top of my head, in that game, the vamp, coroner, Witchdoctor, Cabal, and witches all had extra, hidden powers. That doesn’t strike me as each faction, but I could be wrong about that. Interesting that you would latch onto that out of the whole post. [/QUOTE] (bolding mine) With regard to secret powers, I would have to agree with what **Cookies** was getting at a while back: we can make no conclusions about secret powers in this game based on the previous game. Speculation, sure. But I think your bolded statement is a dangerous assumption to make. And for the record, I was the Scotsman in the original, and I also had a secret “power”: I knew that there was only one of me. Weak, sure, but there it was 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Precambrianmollusc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/precambrianmollusc/32/63_2.png) [@Precambrianmollusc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Precambrianmollusc)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-conspiracy-2-the-cabal-strikes-back-game-over/452324/374 "2008-06-17T16:53:42Z")
Just to be dull and quote from the rules for this game, rather than pontificate on games past [QUOTE=The Rules] The existence and number of each side is undisclosed. Each side will have one secret power. The secret power may be a collective power distributed among multiple players, or may be held by one player. A secret power is not blockable. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-conspiracy-2-the-cabal-strikes-back-game-over/452324/375 "2008-06-17T16:57:39Z")
[QUOTE=Nanook of the North Shore] It worked that way in the original Conspiracy, and I see no reason it would be different here. Off the top of my head, in that game, the vamp, coroner, Witchdoctor, Cabal, and witches all had extra, hidden powers. That doesn’t strike me as each faction, but I could be wrong about that. Interesting that you would latch onto that out of the whole post. [/QUOTE] It didn’t work that way last time. There were five players who had no extra powers - the Necromancer (iirc) and the Wolves (other than the Alpha Wolf, who had a faction secret power). In this game, Pleonast has stated that the _factions_ have secret powers, not that every role has. ---
**Author:** ![Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook_of_the_North_Shore)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-conspiracy-2-the-cabal-strikes-back-game-over/452324/376 "2008-06-17T16:59:46Z")
See? I knew there was mention of secret power in the rules. Sucks that I can’t access google docs from work. Though that does bring up an interesting question of how exactly it will work for each faction having powers. How does that work for town? I’m assuming, without access to the full rules here, that by side it’s refererring to Town, Wolves, Undead and Cabal. It might be interesting if the town side is broken down further, by which I mean say Masons, Witches, umm…casters? or something. ---
**Author:** ![Precambrianmollusc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/precambrianmollusc/32/63_2.png) [@Precambrianmollusc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Precambrianmollusc)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-conspiracy-2-the-cabal-strikes-back-game-over/452324/377 "2008-06-17T17:20:24Z")
The rules list 4 sides, town, wolves, undead, cabal. They also say each side will have ONE secret power. I don’t think our town will be broken down any further with more secret powers (it would be nice, granted) unless Pelonast has a really wacky way of interpreting one. Incidentally I wonder about how he defines secret power, it could be one shot one use power, or could be a permanent condition. Also the wolves and cabal can communicate and coordinate the use of their power, we in town can’t unless it resides with the Witches. I suppose the Freemasons are a group who once they find each other could communicate with each other somehow out here in the open. Anyway, does this town have licensing laws or will this wee pub stay open all day? ---
**Author:** ![Pollux\_Oil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/858c86/32.png) [@Pollux\_Oil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pollux_Oil)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-conspiracy-2-the-cabal-strikes-back-game-over/452324/378 "2008-06-17T17:21:09Z")
Man, I really didn’t know what I was getting into with another game. 8 pages already. :smack: As I said in the other Mafia game, RoOsh’s LOA is directly related to my lack of participation: I’ve been his host for the past few days. When he’s departed I can devote time to reading this monster of a thread. 8 pages already…my poor, poor brain. ---
**Author:** ![CatInASuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3be4f8/32.png) [@CatInASuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CatInASuit)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-conspiracy-2-the-cabal-strikes-back-game-over/452324/379 "2008-06-17T17:40:51Z")
[QUOTE=Nanook of the North Shore] Remember, in this set up each of the roles has an extra power in addition to the listed ones. Who knows what the scum get? Who knows what town bonus powers will be hurt by such a claim? [/QUOTE] Hello Secret power role slip. So Nanook, what’s your secret power and how is yours the same as the last game? The secret powers were one shot, super powered Night/Day actions that could not be blocked. eg. recruitment, superblocking, sacrifice and the Cabal secret actions. Some of the other characters had two powers, zombie sacrifice, guess the number of wolves etc. etc. I will try and answers some questions on my ideas at some stage. I will point one thing out though. There will be scum crossfire. Stop thinking about this like the Batman game where the PFK’s were a balance between town and scum. This is all out war between 4 separate factions. We all balance each other. If one scum faction just focuses on the town, they will lose as the other faction(s) take them out. That’s what makes this game fun 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook_of_the_North_Shore)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-conspiracy-2-the-cabal-strikes-back-game-over/452324/380 "2008-06-17T17:57:03Z")
[QUOTE=CatInASuit] Hello Secret power role slip. So Nanook, what’s your secret power and how is yours the same as the last game? [/quote] IF I have a secret power role, which I will neither confirm nor deny at this time, it could not possibly be the same as the last game, since I did not play in the last game. Further, it was not a secret power role slip, it was a unable to access the full rules to confirm the thoughts running through my head before I posted slip. > [@](#): > > I will point one thing out though. There will be scum crossfire. Stop thinking about this like the Batman game where the PFK’s were a balance between town and scum. This is all out war between 4 separate factions. We all balance each other. If one scum faction just focuses on the town, they will lose as the other faction(s) take them out. If there isn’t scum crossfire, we’re fucked, pure and simple. The only role town would play in that situation is choosing which of the scum factions win. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-conspiracy-2-the-cabal-strikes-back-game-over/452324.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-conspiracy-2-the-cabal-strikes-back-game-over/452324.md?page=20)