# Mafia: Evil Dead - DAY/NIGHT FOUR **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 6, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-day-night-four/480155 "2009-01-06T23:54:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-day-night-four/480155/201 "2009-01-09T18:53:29Z")
> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > Is this power available to you any time or does it have to happen during a Day or a Night? All of my powers are Night only. I am entering people’s dreams, afterall. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-day-night-four/480155/202 "2009-01-09T18:54:40Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > The information I have on that is no different than the information you have. There’s no implication that the heart attack wouldn’t work on deadites. My guess is that it is, again, a color difference. Since one I’m actually witnessing the dream and not actually creating it, then the normal state for a deadite is to not dream. For the second, I was inducing a dream, so maybe that’s the difference. Really, I don’t have a good explanation. > [@storyteller](#): > > [Begenning with this post, all color counts.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10586531&postcount=173) Do deadites sleep? ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-day-night-four/480155/203 "2009-01-09T18:58:48Z")
Ok, if you survive toDay and toNight, BLaM, I’m on-board with you passing a note to Pede. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-day-night-four/480155/204 "2009-01-09T19:06:14Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > Do deadites sleep? I read that statement from storyteller as referring to the idea that the game has now begun, and voting in color will start counting as votes, instead of just messing around pre-game. I could be mistaken, though. > [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > You’re right that it doesn’t necessarily confirm my alignment, it does, however prove that I can enter dreams without malicious intent. If I’m some sort of killing role, what good would it do me to have a power to pass information discreetly? Also, if I use that on **Pedescribe** , who I agree would be a good person to give a message to, then it also means that I’m not doing something else malicous. > > So sure, I suppose it’s not conclusive proof, but really. If I’m a SK, which would mean we’d have TWO SKs in the game, I haven’t managed to kill anyone (I suppose there’s the possibility that I’m responsible for the third kill, but I have specific information about another person on that Night), and I have a power that is utterly useless toward any reasonable goal as an SK. > > So even if I am some sort of other PFK, I use that power and I do nothing to further whatever possible win condition I may have, or I’m lying scum, in which case I won’t be able to follow through, and I get lynched Tomorrow anyway, or I’m actually pro-town. Or, as I said before, you are a PFK with myriad abilitis that help camoflauge your true intention and WC. Maybe you’re not a last-man-standing PFK like a SK. Maybe to win you have to ensure the death of, say, four named players. To accomplish that, you have a direct kill, a redirection, a method of passing messages (to implicate them in the eyes of the town), etc. And you can’t deny that “trying to not get lynched” furthers your win condition, whoever you truly are. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-day-night-four/480155/205 "2009-01-09T19:22:47Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > I read that statement from storyteller as referring to the idea that the game has now begun, and voting in color will start counting as votes, instead of just messing around pre-game. I could be mistaken, though. [color=green]Could you clarify the statement that this refers to?[/green] ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-day-night-four/480155/206 "2009-01-09T19:25:40Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > I read that statement from storyteller as referring to the idea that the game has now begun, and voting in color will start counting as votes, instead of just messing around pre-game. I could be mistaken, though. > > Or, as I said before, you are a PFK with myriad abilitis that help camoflauge your true intention and WC. Maybe you’re not a last-man-standing PFK like a SK. Maybe to win you have to ensure the death of, say, four named players. To accomplish that, you have a direct kill, a redirection, a method of passing messages (to implicate them in the eyes of the town), etc. > > And you can’t deny that “trying to not get lynched” furthers your win condition, whoever you truly are. **JSexton** , you’re REALLY stretching here. If I’m trying to kill four named people (or any number for that matter), beside the fact that I haven’t killed anyone, as my kill attempt failed, how the hell does passing messages help at all? How does me giving information discreetly to someone implicate someone to the town? If I am trying to kill people, why would I pass up an opportunity to kill someone to pass a message? The only way it could implicate someone is IF I give that person information that could implicate them and then they’re stupid enough to blabber about it in a way that would implicate them. And, FTR, when I do get lynched, I think everyone should look REALLY hard at you Tomorrow. Your singlemindedness and inability to consider possibilities on this issue… you’re better than that. I think this insistance that I must be a PFK is indicative that you know I’m not scum (especially with how quick you were to throw out the scum investigator bit so surely and then completely drop it), and you figure I’m either a pretty juicy townie, or I actually am a PFK, and either lynch works great for you. Your inability to consider that my role as described lends itself very well to my play, to lay low, attempt to get as much pro-town actions and information as I can, and then have a way to discreetly communicate it without revealing myself, just completely boggles my mind. And sure, OMGUS and all that, but if I am lynched, and people need to look hard at those who have been pursuing my lynch a little bit too eagerly and one-sided. You’re the most obvious, but I’m sure you’re not the only one. And I would vote for you in a heartbeat now, but I’m fairly certain that, if my vote matters at all, it will be because I have to vote to save myself, and since your scumminess won’t be immediately obvious to the rest of the town until everything I’ve said has been verified by my death, and I seriously doubt that will happen today, I won’t bother yet. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-day-night-four/480155/207 "2009-01-09T19:27:08Z")
Could you clarify the statement that this refers to? ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-day-night-four/480155/208 "2009-01-09T20:27:22Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > **JSexton** , you’re REALLY stretching here. If I’m trying to kill four named people (or any number for that matter), beside the fact that I haven’t killed anyone, as my kill attempt failed, how the hell does passing messages help at all? How does me giving information discreetly to someone implicate someone to the town? If I am trying to kill people, why would I pass up an opportunity to kill someone to pass a message? The only way it could implicate someone is IF I give that person information that could implicate them and then they’re stupid enough to blabber about it in a way that would implicate them. A) It’s just one example. Storyteller is more creative than I am, but like I said, I’ve never seen a gigantic toolbox like you claim to be. My ideas about game design (and I’ve discussed plenty of game theory with storyteller) indicates that such a versatility would lean toward a 3rd party player. And I’ve always maintained that 3rd party players need to die, often over suspected mafia, as doing so removes an entire faction at once. B) Gee, if someone received a message saying “it comes to you in a dream that player X is scum”, don’t you think that player might get some serious pressure? And if you sent that message to another player on your theoretical hitlist, then that player who posted it and was wrong might get lynched? I’m just tossing out ideas here, but I don’t like the way you’re refusing to see that there’s any way you could possibly be seen as non-town, in the eyes of another player. C) Well, if your kills are limited in number or availability, then you’d need to use other sneaky methods to do your work, wouldn’t you? > [@](#): > > And, FTR, when I do get lynched, I think everyone should look REALLY hard at you Tomorrow. Your singlemindedness and inability to consider possibilities on this issue… you’re better than that. I think this insistance that I must be a PFK is indicative that you know I’m not scum (especially with how quick you were to throw out the scum investigator bit so surely and then completely drop it), and you figure I’m either a pretty juicy townie, or I actually am a PFK, and either lynch works great for you. No, it’s because having 8+ abilities makes more sense on a PFK with a funky WC than mafioso or town. > [@](#): > > Your inability to consider that my role as described lends itself very well to my play, to lay low, attempt to get as much pro-town actions and information as I can, and then have a way to discreetly communicate it without revealing myself, just completely boggles my mind. I have considered it. It’s just that my conclusion isn’t one you like. > [@](#): > > And sure, OMGUS and all that, but if I am lynched, and people need to look hard at those who have been pursuing my lynch a little bit too eagerly and one-sided. You’re the most obvious, but I’m sure you’re not the only one. And I would vote for you in a heartbeat now, but I’m fairly certain that, if my vote matters at all, it will be because I have to vote to save myself, and since your scumminess won’t be immediately obvious to the rest of the town until everything I’ve said has been verified by my death, and I seriously doubt that will happen today, I won’t bother yet. Bring it. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-day-night-four/480155/209 "2009-01-09T20:45:35Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > A) It’s just one example. Storyteller is more creative than I am, but like I said, I’ve never seen a gigantic toolbox like you claim to be. My ideas about game design (and I’ve discussed plenty of game theory with storyteller) indicates that such a versatility would lean toward a 3rd party player. And I’ve always maintained that 3rd party players need to die, often over suspected mafia, as doing so removes an entire faction at once. But, there is a precedent for just such a toolbox being given to a confirmed Town player in this game: > [@storyteller at Day 4 Dawn](#): > > DIGGITCAMARA, The Inquisitive Fool, Whose Many Potential Powers Will Not Be Detailed Here But Who Was Definitely Pro-Town, has been foully done in. ---
**Author:** ![dotchan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@dotchan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dotchan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-day-night-four/480155/210 "2009-01-09T20:53:50Z")
There’s also the general Mafia role of “[Jack-Of-All-Trades](http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Jack-of-all-trades)” (I think I’ve also seen this role called the “Inventor”), who tends to have a slew of one-shot abilities. AFAIK it’s a role that can have any alignment. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-day-night-four/480155/211 "2009-01-09T21:12:10Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > A) It’s just one example. Storyteller is more creative than I am, but like I said, I’ve never seen a gigantic toolbox like you claim to be. My ideas about game design (and I’ve discussed plenty of game theory with storyteller) indicates that such a versatility would lean toward a 3rd party player. And I’ve always maintained that 3rd party players need to die, often over suspected mafia, as doing so removes an entire faction at once. > B) Gee, if someone received a message saying “it comes to you in a dream that player X is scum”, don’t you think that player might get some serious pressure? And if you sent that message to another player on your theoretical hitlist, then that player who posted it and was wrong might get lynched? I’m just tossing out ideas here, but I don’t like the way you’re refusing to see that there’s any way you could possibly be seen as non-town, in the eyes of another player. > C) Well, if your kills are limited in number or availability, then you’d need to use other sneaky methods to do your work, wouldn’t you? A) I’ve never seen a role like the one I have either. Like I said, it took **storyteller** 2 PMs to describe the role to me and include all the powers I have. And I agree with you that often third party players should be removed, but sometimes it’s a bad idea. For instance, in the case of a SK, it’s generally a good use of a lynch. If I were a SK, and you can’t deny that the evidence does not support that conclusion at all, then I can understand. If I were a third-party that could steal victory, then I could understand that as well. But even then, do you also think **storyteller** could possibly put in a third party that has a good chance of winning so early in the game? And if so, it would probably require some pretty damn good and lucky play, and I’ve already been demonstratably unlucky on at least one of my attempts to use my power. And you still never addressed my question before. What if when I watched **Pedescribe** , the scum had targetted him? What if when I investigated **Dotchan** she came up scum? What if I hadn’t utterly failed on all of my guesses and attempts to use my power and actually had some more useful information? And why does having a large toolbox necessarily lend itself toward me being PFK? Remember when **storyteller** was the necromancer and everyone assumed he had to be scum because necromancers are evil? Lynching me because of a mechanic that you admitted you’ve never seen before, because it seems more like it fits PFK, is tantamount to voting on color. **Storyteller** even said in my PM, before describing each of my powers that it would be would be boring: [QUOTE=storyteller0910] **POWERS:** Below is a menu of powers from which you may choose each Night. The same dream scene repeated over and over would make for one boring movie. [/QUOTE] Either way, saying that me having a series of one-shot abilities and that it must be PFK makes no more sense than saying it must be pro-town or anti-town. Why is it impossible to believe that **storyteller** might have had a little fun when creating the roles? B) Because, you know, that’s the only way passing secret information could possibly be used. Are you familiar with Occam’s Razor? Let’s see, I have an opportunity to gather some useful information, and can pass on a night of gathering information to share it without revealing myself. Or, I have some convoluted win condition, where none that anyone has come up with makes any sense in the context of the available information, and I can pass up on furthering whatever this possible goal is, to give some information to someone in hopes of getting them to drive a bandwagon falsely, and then look bad for it. You REALLY think that’s a more likely scenario? You really think **storyteller** would design a power and expect that anyone could successfully use a power to that end? C) But there’s absolutely no evidence of me having been responsible for any kills. Hell, I even admitted I targetted Cookies with a kill attempt last Night, and that one failed. There was only one kill on Night Two, so the possibility that it was me is quite slim. There were three kills on Night One, but like I said, I have specific verifiable information about another person. And like I explained above, the possibility of getting someone killed through passing them some information and hoping that they use it to incriminate themselves is so convoluted that it’s just about the most ridiculous possibility I can ever imagine. > [@](#): > > No, it’s because having 8+ abilities makes more sense on a PFK with a funky WC than mafioso or town. You haven’t explained why it makes more sense for a PFK than for town or scum. There is absolutely no logical basis for this at all. It is purely speculation. > [@](#): > > I have considered it. It’s just that my conclusion isn’t one you like. Clearly you haven’t, because you’re off-handedly dismissing things that should be considered and making up BS arguments without substantiating them, like why a series of one-shots is necessarily more PFK than town? You also, as I said, came out attacking me for being a scum investigator, and then completely dropped it. You’re doing exactly what I’ve done as scum when I want to push a lynch. I would ignore possible points that could conceivably make my lynchee town, check. If someone came up with a good counter-point for one of my scenarios, I would generally just drop it, check. I would remain incredibly aggressive attempting to get my opponent to fumble a little bit to give me an openning, check. You’re the only one who has been as involved in this discussion who hasn’t given any sort of possible inclination that, maybe, I’m telling the truth, you’re only looking for ways to condemn me, where others have asked questions asking me to elaborate in reasonable ways. Yeah, you’re not acting ridiculously scummy at all. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-day-night-four/480155/212 "2009-01-09T21:16:45Z")
> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > But, there is a precedent for just such a toolbox being given to a confirmed Town player in this game: :smack: Thank you **Cookies** , I don’t know how I completely missed pointing that out. ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-day-night-four/480155/213 "2009-01-09T22:06:28Z")
A lot of post, little time to analyze. Anyway beginning at the start: > [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > So what was my strategy? It’s similar to one I’ve employed before, but in a completely opposing manner. By laying low, it is impossible for scum to assess how dangerous I am to them. This means that they leave me alive as lynch fodder. Similarly, by lurking, I avoid the “lynch the loud” attention that I have often gotten, allowing me to avoid general town suspicion and, thus, resulting in me having to make an inconvenient role claim. This has allowed me to pay close attentions to what’s been going on and make appropriate judgments for how to best utilize my role. You want to avoid the ‘lynch the loud’ by hiding in the ‘lynch the lurker’ crowd? Making a couple of posts a Day doesn’t allow you to pay close attention? > [@](#): > > First, I can reasonably confirm that **Dotchan** is indeed an Alpha Redshirt. The information I have about her strongly implies that that is her role. Why did you not investigate **NAF** and confirm he was not scum (by not getting a dream)? > [@](#): > > Second, I am reasonably sure that **Cookies** is lying about her role. The information I have about her is inconsistent with her role claim > [@](#): > > The thing is, the power I used is not an investigation; however, I can infer information from the results. In this case, I had an expected result if she were telling the truth, and that is not what occurred, which is why I thought it was inconsistent with her claim. What happened, however, in my haste reading the PM I apparently missed the explanation for why I did not receive the expected result. > [@](#): > > The part that I missed was the explanation that there was something else at play–I’m not sure what exactly–and that she otherwise would have died. What was the exact text? Was something from outside interfering or something about **Cookies** herself? If herself, that’s odd since her PM was about how she was a coward (then I again I am expecting more than just a birthmark). > [@](#): > > I have one other piece of information; however, while it is potentially useful in confirming my thruthfulness, I think it will generally be much more useful to scum, so I will not be sharing that information at this time either. > [@](#): > > Again, I will not be revealing the power I used the first Night for reasons I’ve already stated. > [@](#): > > And, screw it, I watched Pedescribe Night One, expecting that the Doctor would be self-protecting and that the scum might target him for a kill since he was a confirmed townie. And I was wrong, the scum didn’t target him, but the Doctor did. I can see how it might help scum (doctor probably won’t vote for you). You could have said you used your watch power and found a power role instead of the magic bag though. > [@](#): > > So sure, I suppose it’s not conclusive proof, but really. If I’m a SK, which would mean we’d have TWO SKs in the game, I haven’t managed to kill anyone (I suppose there’s the possibility that I’m responsible for the third kill, but I have specific information about another person on that Night), and I have a power that is utterly useless toward any reasonable goal as an SK. Also about the godfather thing: it seems to me people are trying to figure out your role, but jump on it like you must be it and can’t be. I don’t actually think another suggested you where a serial killer. ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-day-night-four/480155/214 "2009-01-09T22:14:56Z")
Wow, I did not preview that last sentence, should be: but you jump on these suggestions like we are sure you must be that. I don’t actually think anyone suggested you are a serial killer. Just that your win condition might involve killing or why killing could be useful to your win condition. Plus why wouldn’t the other five unknown powers have kill potential. Another question about Cookies dream: any mention of the connection between her and the nightmare Ash in your result PM? ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-day-night-four/480155/215 "2009-01-09T22:21:24Z")
> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > But, there is a precedent for just such a toolbox being given to a confirmed Town player in this game: Which is actually further evidence agaisnt Blam being town. Two inventors? Really? > [@dotchan](#): > > There’s also the general Mafia role of “[Jack-Of-All-Trades](http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Jack-of-all-trades)” (I think I’ve also seen this role called the “Inventor”), who tends to have a slew of one-shot abilities. AFAIK it’s a role that can have any alignment. Oh, sure. Typically 3 or 4. I’ve never heard of one having 9 or more abilities before. > [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > A) I’ve never seen a role like the one I have either. Like I said, it took **storyteller** 2 PMs to describe the role to me and include all the powers I have. And I agree with you that often third party players should be removed, but sometimes it’s a bad idea. For instance, in the case of a SK, it’s generally a good use of a lynch. If I were a SK, and you can’t deny that the evidence does not support that conclusion at all, then I can understand. If I were a third-party that could steal victory, then I could understand that as well. But even then, do you also think **storyteller** could possibly put in a third party that has a good chance of winning so early in the game? And if so, it would probably require some pretty damn good and lucky play, and I’ve already been demonstratably unlucky on at least one of my attempts to use my power. It’s day 4. Not exactly early. And I don’t know what your WC is. I lost a game recently to a 3rd party who merely had to be involved in 4 mislynches. That sucked. I’m not saying your theoretical WC is that easy, but that point is that it could be anything, and you could be pretty close to it for all I know. Remember, we only have your word that your powers have been less than useful. > [@](#): > > And you still never addressed my question before. What if when I watched **Pedescribe** , the scum had targetted him? What if when I investigated **Dotchan** she came up scum? What if I hadn’t utterly failed on all of my guesses and attempts to use my power and actually had some more useful information? Then this conversation would have gone very differently. But it didn’t. Tell you what, what if I claimed cop and told you I’d successfully identified three scum so far? Would you be less suspicious of me then, especially after lynching the first one? Do you see how alternate realities don’t actually help your case in this reality? > [@](#): > > And why does having a large toolbox necessarily lend itself toward me being PFK? Remember when **storyteller** was the necromancer and everyone assumed he had to be scum because necromancers are evil? Lynching me because of a mechanic that you admitted you’ve never seen before, because it seems more like it fits PFK, is tantamount to voting on color. **Storyteller** even said in my PM, before describing each of my powers that it would be would be boring: Because granting that quantity of power, on top of everything else we’ve seen given to the town, doesn’t feel like town itself. It feels like something given to balance a 3rd party without the ability to kill every night. I’ve said this more than once. It has nothing to do with color, and everything to do with game design and balance, based on conversations I’ve had with storyteller prior to this game. > [@](#): > > Either way, saying that me having a series of one-shot abilities and that it must be PFK makes no more sense than saying it must be pro-town or anti-town. Why is it impossible to believe that **storyteller** might have had a little fun when creating the roles? I think he had a blast creating these roles. That doesn’t speak to your alignment, though, so why bring it up as though it does? > [@](#): > > B) Because, you know, that’s the only way passing secret information could possibly be used. Are you familiar with Occam’s Razor? Let’s see, I have an opportunity to gather some useful information, and can pass on a night of gathering information to share it without revealing myself. Or, I have some convoluted win condition, where none that anyone has come up with makes any sense in the context of the available information, and I can pass up on furthering whatever this possible goal is, to give some information to someone in hopes of getting them to drive a bandwagon falsely, and then look bad for it. You REALLY think that’s a more likely scenario? You really think **storyteller** would design a power and expect that anyone could successfully use a power to that end? Yes. I’ve seen it done and done it myself. So, yeah. To be fair, I’ve also seen games where townies can pass on info secretly, but I think it’s more effective and useful in the hands of scum. > [@](#): > > C) But there’s absolutely no evidence of me having been responsible for any kills. Hell, I even admitted I targetted Cookies with a kill attempt last Night, and that one failed. Sigh. The evidence for you having kills is _you admitting that you have a kill._ The fact that it failed doesn’t magically remove your culpability. > [@](#): > > Clearly you haven’t, because you’re off-handedly dismissing things that should be considered and making up BS arguments without substantiating them, like why a series of one-shots is necessarily more PFK than town? You also, as I said, came out attacking me for being a scum investigator, and then completely dropped it I dropped it because new evidence came to light (your further abilities) that made PFK make more sense than scum cop. It didn’t change in a vacuum. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-day-night-four/480155/216 "2009-01-09T22:40:17Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > Which is actually further evidence agaisnt Blam being town. Two inventors? Really? But _we_ have brought the (metagame) Inventor/Jack-of-all-trades roles into this conversation. The non-metagame data we have is story’s description of Diggit’s toolbox, and BLaM’s alleged toolbox. While players and Moderators alike can find help and inspiration from looking at wikis and such, there is no reason to assume that storyteller has used traditional/expected roles or powers, etc. We’ve actually seen some amount of evidence that he’s using some very untraditional and unexpected things. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-day-night-four/480155/217 "2009-01-09T22:53:12Z")
The main topic of the Day seems to have been BlaM. Firstly, I understand BlaM’s motivation in changing his playstyle from game to game. He’s doing it not for the benefit it brings to a single game, but to the benefit it brings to the games he participates in; he enjoys it more if he’s doing different stuff, and so far (at least not in _my_ memory) no-one’s called his variations anti-Town before. Whether this particular style is anti-Town or not I’m not sure; it certainly attracted a lot of attention and a significant number of votes, stirring the pot somewhat. BlaM’s explanations are plausible, but in all honesty I don’t think it tells us anything. I suspect players who wish to can behave like that whatever their alignment, even scum. What did catch my eye though, was BlaM trying to skate round a straightforward assertion that he is a Townsperson. It’s been on my mind a bit recently, you’ll understand. It’s not that I didn’t understand the prhrase “that goes without saying” is an indirect agreement; it’s that NAF was fairly clear [post=10633236]in his roleclaim[/post] that the statement he tests must have “an absolute truth value” or he gets “WOOF” back. Now, BlaM has been lurking (ie reading but not posting), and is a fairly sharp cookie besides; he should have known why NAF wanted an explicit statement, but he skated round it twice. On the other hand, when he did finally say it, he didn’t try and hide it or throw out a high volume of testable statements in the hope that NAF picks one that he can explain away as and when NAF gets a bad reading. Then we come to [post=10667983]post 132[/post]. Again, my teeth itch. BlaM says, in the context of replying to Jsexton’s challenge about whether there is a scum benefit to the way he changes playstyles : > [@](#): > > There is no scum benefit at all, and I will say that definitively. Lurking is one thing, but I simply didn’t post. The whole point was to allow me time to use my power while avoiding Night kills from the scum, and not having to claim. I’ve now had three Nights, and my results were not what I expected. Here we part company over the definition of lurker; a player who reads the thread but doesn’t post is pretty much the _definition_ of lurker around here nowadays. Of course, this could be a case of differing definitions, so maybe we need to check understandings. BlaM, what is your definition of “lurker?” I’m going to read the rest of the thread before deciidng who to vote for. I still have 2 hours. ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-day-night-four/480155/218 "2009-01-09T23:07:16Z")
Only one hour I think **MHaye**. Another thing about Blaster Master trying to kill Cookies: > [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > However, I think I can still answer this question in a meaningful way. In reviewing the thread Yesterday, I came to the conclusion that 1) Cookies was a likely lynch candidate from all the heat she was getting and 2) NAF was highly unlikely to investigate her. As such, I decided that she was a reasonable person to target with my power. **NAF** s first solid indication he will investigate **Cookies** is [5th Jan 4 PM](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10653299&postcount=171) (first day Night Three), for those who missed it there was [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10653437&postcount=182) 30 minutes later. Cookies has 2-3 votes at that time and zero at Dawn. But I guess he could only have checked after the Dusk post, but why waste your one shot kill when you thought town was going to lynch Cookies anyway? I also note the current info on you role does not mention it is one shot explicitly (‘same dreams would be boring’ might imply it though). Questions are a bit late (had a New Years reception), but I still don’t see a better candidate then **Blaster Master** , so my vote remains. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-day-night-four/480155/219 "2009-01-09T23:12:58Z")
> [@Natlaw](#): > > A lot of post, little time to analyze. Anyway beginning at the start: > > You want to avoid the ‘lynch the loud’ by hiding in the ‘lynch the lurker’ crowd? Making a couple of posts a Day doesn’t allow you to pay close attention? Not quite. When I play fast and loose, I may draw suspicion, or a may not. The more important part is, I give information to the scum about how valuable my role is. By lurking, the scum almost certainly aren’t going to target me. > [@](#): > > Why did you not investigate **NAF** and confirm he was not scum (by not getting a dream)? Because I believed him. Besides, if he’s town, he’s going to get offed sooner rather than later, and if he’s scum, he’s going to make a mistake sooner rather than later. I also felt that Dotchan was a much more likely candidate for being lynched that NAF, and if she was scum, I could have helped push it, and as coming back town, if she’d gotten under severe lynch pressure, I could have helped save her. Confirming an already claimed role, especially one that has the potential to put the noose around his own neck each Night does not seem like the best use of the power to me. > [@](#): > > What was the exact text? Was something from outside interfering or something about **Cookies** herself? If herself, that’s odd since her PM was about how she was a coward (then I again I am expecting more than just a birthmark). Fair enough, here’s the PM: [QUOTE=storyteller0910] Dude, I don’t know how you’re doing this, but: You attempt to slip into Cookies dreams. You sense that she would be viable target under most circumstances, but that some strange, inexplicable force - different from the one that guarded pedescribe a few nights ago - protects her from your nightmare. Your kill has failed. Sorry. You’re hitting the bad luck lottery in this game, if that helps at all. [/QUOTE] A few points on it: 1. In my haste, I saw the kill had failed and read “not viable”, which is why I thought she was immune to night kills and thought it was contradictory. Obviously when I reread more closely, I was wrong. 2. It’s clear that it wasn’t the same thing I saw when I watched **Pedescribe**. I think it’s reasonable the the doctor may have protected him, but I don’t think the doctor would have protected **Cookies** , so… I don’t know what happened. 3. Obviously, this doesn’t confirm **Cookies** in anyway, but it is at least consistent with her being Vanilla Town. Should could still be scum. However, considering the PM that she got, and that she posted it before knowing what I targetted her with, it would only make sense that that would be the nightmare she’d have, so I’m inclined to believe her claim either way. 4. Also, I never got any indication that my other targets received messages, nor did I receive any indication that she would get a PM either. I’m not quite sure what that means, but it could be that whatever protection was on her allowed her to know she was targetted but simple didn’t allow the kill to go through. > [@](#): > > I can see how it might help scum (doctor probably won’t vote for you). You could have said you used your watch power and found a power role instead of the magic bag though. In hindsight, you’re correct. But I was hoping for a better reception to my reveal. > [@](#): > > Also about the godfather thing: it seems to me people are trying to figure out your role, but jump on it like you must be it and can’t be. I don’t actually think another suggested you where a serial killer. I was pretty sure I saw a Serial Killer accusation in there, which is why I responded to it. I may have read too deeply into it. Either way, all of the alternate scenarios for what I may be just don’t fit with the available evidence. I don’t really know what else to say about it. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-day-night-four/480155/220 "2009-01-09T23:13:04Z")
> [@Natlaw](#): > > Only one hour I think **MHaye**. You’re right. I somehow miscalculated yesterday, and I’ve been running on the wrong timetable all today. Thanks for pointing it out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-day-night-four/480155.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-day-night-four/480155.md?page=12)