# Mafia: Evil Dead - Signups and Night Zero **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [December 11, 2008, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-signups-and-night-zero/476736 "2008-12-11T17:51:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-signups-and-night-zero/476736/221 "2008-12-18T20:37:10Z")
Leaving work now. Will post the opening of Day One when I get home tonight, but for now, act as if the Day has started. Which means… well, nothing really, since you can say anything at any time, but there you go. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-signups-and-night-zero/476736/222 "2008-12-18T20:38:54Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > My impression is that some have said one should vote randomly early, but then move the vote to someone you have real suspicion of well before the end of Day One. My problem with that is, I never seem to have real suspicion of anyone on Day One. If you are going to end up voting based on some vague hint of a ping anyway, why preface it with a random vote? Conversely, if you are going to place a random vote, why should you feel bound to move it until someone else actually strikes you as legitimately suspicious, even if that isn’t on Day One? Could someone enlighten me on the theory of how this is supposed to be pro-Town? Random votes should be used to jump-start discussion on Day One. But by the end of the Day (and every Day), you should be voting for whoever you find most suspicious. Presumably that will be a different person than who you picked at random. Yes, that can be difficult to decide the first few Days, but it is the burden of a Townie to do so. Do your best. > [@pedescribe](#): > > Got my PM…looks pretty cool. Uh, is this some sort of admission that you didn’t get a a vanilla Townie role? ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ And speaking of vanilla Townie roles, we seem to have two. This leads to an interesting effect. In the usual Mafia game, players are assumed to be a vanilla Townie by default. But we can’t quite do that here, since there are two roles. We could just assume everyone is one of the two. But there’s another option–we can force everyone to claim Alpha or Beta vanilla. True vanillas will claim truthfully. Power roles and Deadites will have to lie. Why would we do this?1. PRO: It will trap Deadites into a claim earlier. This will limit their options for later false claims. Although power roles will have to lie, they will have a true claim to make, and so won’t have to worry about furthering the lie. And Deadites falsely claiming power roles are typically easier to catch. 2. PRO: Some pro-Town powers may be able to target or detect specific vanilla roles. This will make it easier for the lying Deadites to be caught earlier. CON: This net may also catch power roles. 3. CON: Some Deadite powers may be able to target specific vanilla roles. We’d be feeding them what the need to know. Furthermore, this may make it easier for them to distinguish truthful vanilla roles from power roles who’ve lied about their redshirt status. On the whole, I think it’s probably not a good idea to reveal vanilla type at this time. But I think we need to keep it in mind for later in the game, once we have more information available to evaluate the pros and cons. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Oh, a general Mafia caveat–please don’t try to meta game players by looking at absences. Especially this time of year. I know I’ll be posting sporadically. Both sides of the game have families and other obligations. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-signups-and-night-zero/476736/223 "2008-12-18T20:47:30Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > Leaving work now. Will post the opening of Day One when I get home tonight, but for now, act as if the Day has started. Which means… well, nothing really, since you can say anything at any time, but there you go. Yes! Looks like I timed my confirmation PM correctly. 🆒 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Let me put out my votes: **vote pedescribe** for the “slip”. I’ll withdrawal once I get adequate explanation. And, **vote Total Lost** as a random vote. Why two votes? Well, I want to see how **story** handles votes without unvotes. The rules don’t explicitly say multi-votes are disallowed and he didn’t answer [my question](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10564575&postcount=38) about it. So, we’ll see what the first official vote count looks like. ---
**Author:** ![Rapier42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90db22/32.png) [@Rapier42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rapier42)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-signups-and-night-zero/476736/224 "2008-12-18T20:47:44Z")
Right. Got it. Don’t carry grudges, and no throwing people, especially Hal. Anything else? ---
**Author:** ![bufftabby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bufftabby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bufftabby)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-signups-and-night-zero/476736/225 "2008-12-18T21:08:20Z")
Yeah, **Rapier** : no tops. That’s right; shirts off now. I’m interested to see how those multiple votes play out as well. ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-signups-and-night-zero/476736/226 "2008-12-18T21:08:53Z")
Also are votes made in the Night carried over (story said we could start to vote before he said the Day has begone)? [QUOTE=Pleonast] 3. CON: Some Deadite powers may be able to target specific vanilla roles. We’d be feeding them what the need to know. Furthermore, this may make it easier for them to distinguish truthful vanilla roles from power roles who’ve lied about their redshirt status. [/QUOTE] Possible information from that kind of claim would be if the Alpha/Beta ratio is off, then the bigger group has false claims. But if both Power Roles and Scum false claim, that only gives the scum a narrower target group for the Power Roles. What if power roles have an Alpha/Beta kind as well (say Vigilante is a Jock, Doctor a Nerd)? I also don’t see how it restricts the scum in role claiming (expect going from Vanilla Jock to Vanilla [del]Ice[/del] Nerd), could you explain? ---
**Author:** ![bufftabby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bufftabby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bufftabby)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-signups-and-night-zero/476736/227 "2008-12-18T21:31:21Z")
From the Rules: > [@](#): > > The following is unusual, and important: once you vote for someone, you vote stays active forever until one of three things happens: > (1) you remove it, using the unvote storyteller construction; > (2) you die; or > (3) the person for whom you are voting dies. ---
**Author:** ![Hockey\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a183cd/32.png) [@Hockey\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hockey_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-signups-and-night-zero/476736/228 "2008-12-18T21:32:33Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Yes! Looks like I timed my confirmation PM correctly. 🆒 > > ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ > > Let me put out my votes: > **vote pedescribe** > for the “slip”. I’ll withdrawal once I get adequate explanation. And, > **vote Total Lost** > as a random vote. > > Why two votes? Well, I want to see how **story** handles votes without unvotes. The rules don’t explicitly say multi-votes are disallowed and he didn’t answer [my question](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10564575&postcount=38) about it. So, we’ll see what the first official vote count looks like. Interesting. I too want to see how this is handled. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-signups-and-night-zero/476736/229 "2008-12-18T21:33:17Z")
> [@Natlaw](#): > > Also are votes made in the Night carried over (story said we could start to vote before he said the Day has begone)? From the rules: > [@storyteller0910](#): > > 1. **Voting** > You may vote to lynch another player by using the now familiar vote storyteller construction. You may do this at any time, Day or Night. Whoever has the most votes at the time a game Day ends will be lynched; there is a method of resolution for all ties, but it will not be shared at this time. > > The following is unusual, and important: once you vote for someone, you vote stays active forever until one of three things happens: > > (1) you remove it, using the unvote storyteller construction; > (2) you die; or > (3) the person for whom you are voting dies. > > The vote count is _not_ automatically cleared at the end of each lynch; if **Roosh** has six votes and **storyteller** has five votes at the end of Day One, then Roosh will die, and storyteller will begin Night One with five votes. > [@Natlaw](#): > > Possible information from that kind of claim would be if the Alpha/Beta ratio is off, then the bigger group has false claims. But if both Power Roles and Scum false claim, that only gives the scum a narrower target group for the Power Roles. > > What if power roles have an Alpha/Beta kind as well (say Vigilante is a Jock, Doctor a Nerd)? > I also don’t see how it restricts the scum in role claiming (expect going from Vanilla Jock to Vanilla [del]Ice[/del] Nerd), could you explain? About the Alpha-Beta ratio, I wouldn’t want to make assumptions about the ratio at this point. We don’t know of any reason why it’d be any particular value. If power roles have a particular Alpha/Beta status, that increases the benefit for all of us claiming. If the Deadites have it as well, then it decreases the benefit. The value of forced claim is that the Deadites (assuming they don’t have an actual Alpha/Beta status) will be forced to lie. This lie may be caught by some pro-Town power. Or it may make future lies harder by making it more difficult to create a consistent story. I can’t go into more detail because I don’t know the rules. But other players (who probably won’t want to say what they know) will be able to. They’ll be the ones to make use of the information. The main point is that Townies need not and should not lie. Deadites must lie to win the game and catching their lies is the best way to catch them. So forcing them to lie earlier and in an unequivocal way helps us. ---
**Author:** ![Chucara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Chucara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chucara)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-signups-and-night-zero/476736/230 "2008-12-18T21:43:42Z")
Here’s an idea (not mine, but I kinda like it): What if every person states a (random) name in the first post of the day (Or at least once per day) as well as an alignment - for example: TARGET: Storyteller: Town If I were investigator, the alignment would be true and the name would be of last nights target. In case I were to die, all actions would still be recorded. If I were any other power role, the “Town” part would be random, but the name would the target of last nights action. If I were vanilla, the name and alignment would be entirely random. The only reason I’d be posting was to make it easy for an investigator to breadcrumb, and it’d also expose the previous actions of anyone dying or claiming… Theoretically making it harder for scum to lie. Any comments before we begin - good idea? bad idea? Directly opposed? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-signups-and-night-zero/476736/231 "2008-12-18T21:48:05Z")
> [@Chucara](#): > > If I were investigator, the alignment would be true and the name would be of last nights target. In case I were to die, all actions would still be recorded. Very risky! The Deadites will quickly know who is not a real investigator because of their mistakes. This will increase their odds to neutralize the real investigator(s). ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-signups-and-night-zero/476736/232 "2008-12-18T22:14:29Z")
**Pleo** Just so I am sure about what you are saying. It _might/will be_ advisable that a town power role lie (i.e. not fully claim). The first sentence of the last paragraph in post 229 seems to indicate differently. ---
**Author:** ![Rapier42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90db22/32.png) [@Rapier42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rapier42)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-signups-and-night-zero/476736/233 "2008-12-18T22:17:17Z")
> [@Chucara](#): > > Here’s an idea (not mine, but I kinda like it): > > What if every person states a (random) name in the first post of the day (Or at least once per day) as well as an alignment - for example: > > TARGET: Storyteller: Town > > If I were investigator, the alignment would be true and the name would be of last nights target. In case I were to die, all actions would still be recorded. > If I were any other power role, the “Town” part would be random, but the name would the target of last nights action. > If I were vanilla, the name and alignment would be entirely random. The only reason I’d be posting was to make it easy for an investigator to breadcrumb, and it’d also expose the previous actions of anyone dying or claiming.. Theoretically making it harder for scum to lie. > > Any comments before we begin - good idea? bad idea? Directly opposed? This is an awesome idea - I’ve been thinking about playing every game this way, except that I figured I was guaranteed an early exit the first game I tried it :D. If we all do it, though… not only does it make real breadcrumbing a cinch, but it ties any scum thinking about a false claim into evolving that claim in real-time (which would have trashed Hals gambit in the last game). I’m down. We’ll need to remember that this crap means nothing unless/until a role is confirmed, and there’s a potential for scum to manipulate impressions with it, so if we do this, everybody be sure to ignore the crumbs from anybody not confirmed in their Role. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-signups-and-night-zero/476736/234 "2008-12-18T22:23:19Z")
> [@Rapier42](#): > > This is an awesome idea - I’ve been thinking about playing every game this way, except that I figured I was guaranteed an early exit the first game I tried it :D. If we all do it, though… not only does it make real breadcrumbing a cinch, but it ties any scum thinking about a false claim into evolving that claim in real-time (which would have trashed Hals gambit in the last game). > > I’m down. We’ll need to remember that this crap means nothing unless/until a role is confirmed, and there’s a potential for scum to manipulate impressions with it, so if we do this, everybody be sure to ignore the crumbs from anybody not confirmed in their Role. It’s been said already, but it doesn’t work. The scum generally know the alignments of everyone in the game, save maybe one or two people (SK, survivor, etc.) That means anyone who is wrong gets crossed off the list of possible investigators. The true investigator will probably be known by day 3. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-signups-and-night-zero/476736/235 "2008-12-18T22:26:02Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Uh, is this some sort of admission that you didn’t get a a vanilla Townie role? Bad Pleonast! Pedescribe, don’t answer that. There’s no reason to clarify right now. None. It might be an admission of a power role, or it might be that he thought the flavor looks interesting. Who cares? There’s nothing inherently scummy about possessing a power role, and no good can come of talking about it for no reason. ---
**Author:** ![Almost\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@Almost\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Almost_Human)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-signups-and-night-zero/476736/236 "2008-12-18T22:33:18Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > It’s been said already, but it doesn’t work. The scum generally know the alignments of everyone in the game, save maybe one or two people (SK, survivor, etc.) That means anyone who is wrong gets crossed off the list of possible investigators. The true investigator will probably be known by day 3. Bugger, you’re right, but it did sound like a really good idea at first. If anyone can think of a reason why it _would_ be a good idea I’d love to hear it. ---
**Author:** ![Rapier42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90db22/32.png) [@Rapier42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rapier42)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-signups-and-night-zero/476736/237 "2008-12-18T22:36:01Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Very risky! The Deadites will quickly know who is not a real investigator because of their mistakes. This will increase their odds to neutralize the real investigator(s). Huh. The easy answer there is to omit the result. Just name a hypothetical “target”, and if/when a power role dies unclaimed, the rest falls into place (assuming a rolename/power reveal upon death). How’s that work? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-signups-and-night-zero/476736/238 "2008-12-18T22:37:02Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > **Pleo** Just so I am sure about what you are saying. It _might/will be_ advisable that a town power role lie (i.e. not fully claim). The first sentence of the last paragraph in post 229 seems to indicate differently. Yeah, my general advice “Townies need not and should not lie” is violated by the specific situation of everyone being forced to claim Alpha or Beta, presuming power roles do not have an Alpha/Beta status. That is one of the cons of doing that. To be clear, I don’t think we should do the Alpha/Beta claim now (subject to a good argument for it). But I think we should discuss it, so that later in the game, when the situation is different, we can implement it quickly if it becomes worthwhile > [@Rapier42](#): > > This is an awesome idea You’re not thinking about what scum would gain from that idea. Normally, that would be a pro-Town slip, since many players aren’t used to being scum, but you’ve been scum (a good one, too) and should know better. Therefore, **vote Rapier42** > [@JSexton](#): > > Bad Pleonast! Pedescribe, don’t answer that. There’s no reason to clarify right now. None. It might be an admission of a power role, or it might be that he thought the flavor looks interesting. Who cares? There’s nothing inherently scummy about possessing a power role, and no good can come of talking about it for no reason. It was an obvious slip and needed to be pointed out. There’s three cases here:1. **ped** is a power role. Deadites are not stupid and knowing who’s Town will easily pick this up as a power role slip. Pointing it out gives our protective roles a possible target. 2. **ped** is a Deadite. Yay, caught our first scum slip. Let the Town decide if it’s worth lynching over. 3. **ped** is a vanilla Townie. Well then he’s either going to draw an early Night kill (and better him than a power role) or he’s not. At least by pointing it out, it gives him a chance to respond, and maybe a WIFOM choice for the Deadites.In any case, **ped** ’s reaction (including ignoring me) to the slip accusation is something we can all use to help decide his alignment. ---
**Author:** ![Rapier42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90db22/32.png) [@Rapier42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rapier42)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-signups-and-night-zero/476736/239 "2008-12-18T22:42:09Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > You’re not thinking about what scum would gain from that idea. Normally, that would be a pro-Town slip, since many players aren’t used to being scum, but you’ve been scum (a good one, too) and should know better. Therefore, > vote Rapier42 Thanks, I think… 😃 Does my post immediately preceding your last make any difference in your opinion of me? ---
**Author:** ![Millit\_the\_Frail](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@Millit\_the\_Frail](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Millit_the_Frail)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-signups-and-night-zero/476736/240 "2008-12-18T22:48:04Z")
That’s really the rub in these games–breadcrumbs are practically necessary\* if you want to make good use of power roles (and tasty, too!), but they need to be so subtle that they only come to light after the fact. That’s my only suggestion for our pro-town power roles: think subtle. BTW, will we get any idea of what roles are in play with the opening of the Day? I’m feeling lost right now. \*At least, for me. I tend to have a fixation on the indelible facts: what is actually known (investigation results, etc) and who people voted for, in what order. In past games, I’m pretty bad with…how do you say, “scumdar?” 🙂 Og help me. I hope I’m not completely useless… Oh, and as far as a mass roleclaim: Sure, it does make sense to trap the scum early, but I am not sure exactly how we plan to do that. I mean, wouldn’t the scum just lie? They could alternate claiming Alpha and Beta in turn if they don’t want to throw off the ratio. (Which we aren’t even privy to–we assume 50/50, but who really knows?) They know who each other are. I recently read YSI Mafia and it seems the scum did a great job of lying about dossiers…I can’t figure out exactly what they did, but it seems that when you’ve got the info in front of you, it’s pretty easy to do a good enough job lying. Power roles don’t have nearly as much info, and we may end up lynching them for scum. Which is, uhhhhh…bad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-signups-and-night-zero/476736.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-evil-dead-signups-and-night-zero/476736.md?page=13)