# Mafia - Game in progress \[Edited title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 9, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-in-progress-edited-title/646635 "2013-01-09T16:03:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-in-progress-edited-title/646635/861 "2013-02-06T23:26:51Z")
> [@Chucara](#): > > You know this is a multi vote game, right? Yes. Doesn’t mean I am required to multi-vote. > [@Chucara](#): > > I was explaining the reason behind my insistence on defending Pizza. (Explaining that it wasn’t PIS). Any argument used against that could also be applied to Pizza defending me. In both counts, you are wrong. Maybe I’m not understanding your reasoning then. Because as best I can tell, you are arguing that on Day 1 you were _sure_ **Pizza** was Town and since he flipped Town that should somehow exonerate you. You also use the SWNDT defense. You further rationalize this by saying that **pizza** was more or less saying the same thing about you Yesterday and since he flipped Town it must also mean you are town. Am I misinterpreting? Let me just say that in the absence of a Masonry or Doctor investigation, I look askance at any player who is so certain of another player’s alignment. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-in-progress-edited-title/646635/862 "2013-02-07T00:27:02Z")
Sorry to have been an absentee narrator for the past few days. Official vote count to follow, but first, a public service announcement: **I will reproduce on the Barn, without fail (within the limits of my own fallibility) whatever color, punctuation, capitalization, and spacing that is sent to me. I do reserve the right to change the font sizes if I think you sent me a size that’s too big aesthetically. Any text surrounding that text, about paint color or other artistic medium, is color (pun sort of intended) and nothing else.** 6 votes [ul][li] **Choie** – GuiriEnEspana (712), Stanislaus (786), Enderw24 (788), choie (795), Mahaloth (799), Meeko (817)[/li][li] **Chucara** – Texcat (733), Diggitcamara (804), choie (805), Lightfoot (835), wombat99 (851), USCDiver (852)[/ul][/li] 3 votes [ul][li] **GuiriEnEspana** – choie (795), Silver Jan (822), wombat99 (851)[/ul][/li] 2 votes [ul][li] **Texcat** – GuiriEnEspana (712), Chucara (815)[/li][li] **Fubbleskag** – Diggitcamara (836), Enderw24 (846)[/li][li] **Babale** – Stanislaus (786), wombat99 (851)[/ul][/li] 1 vote [ul][li] **Silver Jan** – GuiriEnEspana (712)[/li][li] **Suburban Plankton** – Diggitcamara (759)[/li][li] **Diggitcamara** –Johnny Bravo (787)[/li][li] **Stanislaus** – Cometothe…Cookies (816)[/ul][/li] Day will end tomorrow (Thursday) at 2:00PM sharp (Eastern time), or in about 19 hours. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-in-progress-edited-title/646635/863 "2013-02-07T01:35:36Z")
I can support Chucara’s lynch for the same reasons as yesterDay. I’ll break the tie. **Vote Chucara** ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-in-progress-edited-title/646635/864 "2013-02-07T01:37:06Z")
I know, i’m coming in late to this barn discussion, but it seems to me like a big fat red herring at this point. I must have missed lightfoot’s vote on chucara yesterday because when I see it quoted it looks like utter nonsense. While that sort of behavior can be irritating I fail to see how giving an opinion without all the facts is an indicator of scumminess. **vote Lightfoot** Next up:Choie and the barn of self voting. Sorry, but I cannot recall a scum player self voting in a case where they were not also claiming to be scum. **vote Mahaloth** **vote USCDiver** Both of these votes where choie self voting were a determining factor is nonsense. It just seems like these two needed a reason to jump on a bandwagon. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-in-progress-edited-title/646635/865 "2013-02-07T01:44:46Z")
Hey **Red** , if I vote for myself, would that confirm me as Town in your eyes? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-in-progress-edited-title/646635/866 "2013-02-07T04:01:19Z")
First things first: **Unvote Diggit** Without a counterclaim I can’t really justify keeping a vote on him, but I still think my original reason for voting him (calling out the first people to comment on the grammar error) was a decent one. I’m certainly not going to consider him a definite townie. I’m going to **Vote Choie** for the extreme fatalism. I agree with whoever said above (Mahaloth?) that a townie facing the noose should argue to the bitter end. But more important than that, when Choie self-voted (and somebody should feel free to correct me if my timeline is off - I’m having some trouble keeping everything straight), she only had three votes to **Diggit’s** five votes, and this was _before he claimed as a Mason._ At _that time_, **Diggit’s** lynching seemed in the bag. If **choie** had thrown in the towel after becoming lynch leader and after the mason claim, I would feel less suspicious. I will also: **vote Red Skeezix** for not contributing anything at all, waiting until nearly the last minute, and then throwing out three votes on players who hadn’t yet attracted _any_ votes today. I don’t like that signal-to-noise ratio. He’s probably not going to get lynched this round but I don’t mind putting my suspicion out there. It feels like an attempted “safe” post to create a record of participation without having to commit to the broader discussion of the two lynch leaders. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-in-progress-edited-title/646635/867 "2013-02-07T04:38:07Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > But more important than that, when Choie self-voted (and somebody should feel free to correct me if my timeline is off - I’m having some trouble keeping everything straight), she only had three votes to **Diggit’s** five votes, and this was _before he claimed as a Mason._ At _that time_, **Diggit’s** lynching seemed in the bag. If **choie** had thrown in the towel after becoming lynch leader and after the mason claim, I would feel less suspicious. Then read and enjoy. What a ridiculously scummy thing to do–vote me (again to take **Chucara** ’s head out of the noose) for something _so easy_ to look up. Here, I’ll save you the trouble. I even mention it in my post: > [@choie](#): > > Anyway, if **Diggit** is one of three Masons, I presume s/he’s more important than I am as vanilla, so you might as well vote me off if no one else finds anyone else scummy. Personally I think **Guiri** is hella scummy after his behavior in the last round. But anyway, just to get this over with, > > **vote choie > vote Guiri** > > Me because I’m a better vote than Diggit if s/he can genuinely provide info, and also because I’m not paying attention very well and apparently my misreading and asking questions\* because I’m inexperienced is turning me into a distraction. So, and this isn’t an OMGUS because otherwise I’d be voting for six people, but it sure as heck is a vote because once again someone’s trying to get **Chucara** saved from the noose under patently false reasons. And people say _I_ can’t keep things straight… this is way worse than any of my confusion over the stupid barn color. **vote Johnny Bravo** Because I want it on the record. > [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > I believe choie self-voted in De’endee as townie. Did I? I don’t remember that. I remember voting for someone and then pulling my vote almost immediately–I think that was the thing that nearly got me lynched. (As Town. Again.) > [@](#): > > It’s not logical but it’s something she’d do when frustrated, as townie. This is bad play but is not indicative one way or the other. Yeah, probably bad play, but again I’d rather die than waste people’s time. On the other hand, I’m curious about **Chucara**. Very curious. So I’ll be watching once dead to see exactly what the story is there. > [@](#): > > We are more alike than unlike. It’s \*precisely \*why I threw up my hands and became deathly silent. There was no point in arguing anything further, town was not in listening or thinking mode. They were guessing (no argument to be made against that) and thinking my behavior was in any way scummy (not in the slightest, but scummy has no actual definition so… no argument to be made against that either). You may well be right. That might be why we clashed in **De’endee** , and yet why we also worked well together in **Phere**. Anyway, before I go, unless there’s a last minute shocker, I want to get this on the record too: **vote Weedy** Because a grand total of two posts means someone has something to hide. She’s either super-powerful Town or the freakin’ Godfather. Or rather, Alpha Werewolf. (Sorry, almost forgot the storyline here.) Besides, I vaguely remember her being super quiet to start with during **De’endee** and she was one of the scummiest scum that ever scummed. Not that past performance is indicative of future profits, as the investment ads say, but still. Just want to throw her out there as someone for Town to watch. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-in-progress-edited-title/646635/868 "2013-02-07T04:39:20Z")
> [@USCDiver](#): > > Hey **Red** , if I vote for myself, would that confirm me as Town in your eyes? Of course not. It would say the same about you that choie’s says about her. Absolutely nothing. Although after a reread, I find that your reaction to Diggit’s behavior was more in keeping with a town ideal than Mahaloths. He jumped at the possibility of voting for someone, while you explained your opinion on the matter. And I feel that that lack of opportunism (ie you skipped another obvious bandwagon) is either a cautious scum or pro-town. OTOH Mahaloth did exploit the opportunity twice. I have to wonder if his opinion on choie’s actions would have been the same if he had not had to flee his Diggit vote. \*\* Unvote USCDiver \*\* > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > First things first: > > **Unvote Diggit** > > Without a counterclaim I can’t really justify keeping a vote on him, but I still think my original reason for voting him (calling out the first people to comment on the grammar error) was a decent one. I’m certainly not going to consider him a definite townie. > > I’m going to > > **Vote Choie** > > for the extreme fatalism. I agree with whoever said above (Mahaloth?) that a townie facing the noose should argue to the bitter end. > > But more important than that, when Choie self-voted (and somebody should feel free to correct me if my timeline is off - I’m having some trouble keeping everything straight), she only had three votes to **Diggit’s** five votes, and this was _before he claimed as a Mason._ At _that time_, **Diggit’s** lynching seemed in the bag. If **choie** had thrown in the towel after becoming lynch leader and after the mason claim, I would feel less suspicious. > > I will also: > > **vote Red Skeezix** > > for not contributing anything at all, waiting until nearly the last minute, and then throwing out three votes on players who hadn’t yet attracted _any_ votes today. I don’t like that signal-to-noise ratio. He’s probably not going to get lynched this round but I don’t mind putting my suspicion out there. It feels like an attempted “safe” post to create a record of participation without having to commit to the broader discussion of the two lynch leaders. There’s some things wrong with this post: 1. Why continue to impugn a claimed and not counterclaimed mason? It will sort itself out in due time. Either by counterclaim, death or corroborating (or lack thereof) claims. 2. Since when is “extreme fatalism” a exclusively scum trait? While I agree that we should all do our best to continue to fight to the bitter end, since when was it the objective of town to lynch those who do not? Sorry but my win condition does not say: “You win when all those not afflicted by extreme fatalism are dead.” 3. It’s interesting that you consider my post “safe”. I seem to be introducing other possible candidates, albeit late in the day. Also, I’m calling out scummy behavior where I see it. Things like nonsense votes, and voting for behaviors that are not indicative of anything at all. Furthermore my lack of position involving the two lynch leaders, is a reflection of my ambivalence towards either of their lynches. They may possibly be scum, but my feelings that their actions are less scummy than those I’m voting for. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-in-progress-edited-title/646635/869 "2013-02-07T04:42:43Z")
NETA: 1. Since when is “extreme fatalism” a exclusively scum trait? While I agree that we should all do our best to continue to fight to the bitter end, since when was it the objective of town to lynch those who do not? Sorry but my win condition does not say: “You win when all those not afflicted by extreme fatalism are dead.” Should read: 1. Since when is “extreme fatalism” an exclusively scum trait? While I agree that we should all do our best to continue to fight to the bitter end, since when was it the objective of town to lynch those who do not? Sorry but my win condition does not say: “You win when all those afflicted by extreme fatalism are dead.” Too tired to post coherently. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-in-progress-edited-title/646635/870 "2013-02-07T04:49:19Z")
Choie, you’re right. I screwed up the order - your vote was a few after diggits reveal. I was scanning for blue on my phone and missed the context, so I willunvote Choie for the time being, and reread more tomorrow before deadline. Voting me for a mistake that I said I might be making is pretty weird, though. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-in-progress-edited-title/646635/871 "2013-02-07T05:20:43Z")
[OOG] As I mentioned, I’ve been fairly busy at work. Many apologies for the radio silence this Day. I don’t think I’ve ever had to sit out a Day in Mafia like this before, and I don’t plan on doing it again. [/OOG] First up, my feelings on Choie. She’s been quite the topic of conversation. Her response to my “:dubious:” post is interesting because of her intense over-reaction: > [@choie](#): > > Vote for me for being an idiot. If you’re Town, I probably won’t be of much use anyway. If you’re Scum, you probably should leave me in since I’m a good distraction. I didn’t vote for Choie. I raised my eyebrow at her twice. At this point, I don’t believe she’s gathered more than a smattering of votes in the entire game. This is a _preposterous_ response to my post, totally over the top for a “suspicion” post in a game that involves suspicions. > [@choie](#): > > Wait, what? No I wasn’t. I was genuinely asking how a vigilante would know about a serial killer. > > […] > > Again, I never doubted the message. I’m giving _you_ a :dubious: for inventing doubt where there is none. Total misreading of my curiosity. > > […] > > However, the point is that for some reason both **Pleo** and at least a wolf or someone else with bad punctuation skills :D, believes, or is aware, that there’s a Serial Killer. In none of the games I’ve played has anyone except the SK known for certain that there was a Serial Killer in the game until after a couple of Nights. Unless I missed something in **story** ’s color. This part too is interesting. Choie says I’m “inventing” the idea that she accepts Pleo left the message and simultaneously casts doubt on the veracity of said message. I believe these quotes, all from the same post, _show she was still doing that._ What is the point of asking how Pleo knew there was a serial killer? **Either he knows, or he’s lying.** Since we can’t ask him, this speculation is useless, and _we have no reason to suspect he’s lying._ I get that none of your previous games have had this mechanic, but that’s neither here nor there. We have a message reportedly from the Butcher. We know there is a player called The Butcher, and we know that player is town. We have no reason to suspect the message did not come from that player. _So what is the point of questioning how Pleo knew, if not to cast potential doubt on his accuracy?_ Wait… > [@USCDiver](#): > > As for the Barn, I am comfortable that the first message is genuinely from Pleo, but how did he know there was a SK? And what’s up with the message anyway, of course a SK wins if they don’t die. Isn’t tha the point of third parties? You too?!? > [@choie](#): > > I’m also curious if **Astral** is just as dubious at everyone else now that others are doing way more questioning of **Pleo** ’s first post than I ever did. 🙂 I never doubted it’s from **Pleonast** myself. I am, a little bit. But I never accused you of doubting that the message was from Pleonast. I accused you of doubting its accuracy for no good reason. I think there are some borderline lazy votes on you, Choie. But I don’t understand your tone, and it’s a far cry from how I’d expect you to act as town. You weathered accusations in De’endee Mafia far better than this. In fact, the last time I remember a response like this was in a PM during Phere Mafia, where you went over-the-top when I started to post suggestions of suspicion towards you. I should have followed my gut then and voted for you, and it would have served me well. And yet, despite all of this… I can’t be sure that I should vote for you. I remember my own frustration in Genre fiction, where I (in an INCREDIBLY bone-headed move) managed to out myself as “scum” by forgetting my team’s name. And I wasn’t scum, I was the town cop. Yup, lynched like a fool for that one. I think we won anyway, but hell if I helped. But I’m sure, if I reread that game, my posts would come across about the same as yours in this one. I absolutely see scum motivation in some of your actions. I can also absolutely believe a town Choie _could_ act like this. It’s actually bothering me how much I can’t come to a decision on you. I approve of the lynch… but I’m less sure of it than I normally am. Maybe that’s a good thing. I tend to be awfully sure of myself when I’m happily mislynching my own team. Oh well. **Vote Choie.** Let the voting record show I approve of this lynch. * * * Thought I was done? This is but the first of (several?) posts. Got some catching up to do. More posts to follow, eventually. Also, more votes. I’m pretty sure I want to vote for babale, too. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-in-progress-edited-title/646635/872 "2013-02-07T05:46:18Z")
All I was saying, **Astral** , is not that I doubt **Pleo**. It’s just flabbergasting to me that people think my being weirded out by _both Town and (apparently) Scum_ knowing of the existence of a Serial Killer is suspicious. It’s not _ **Pleo** _ whom I doubt, it’s the second person confirming this SK, and not just confirming it, but doing it the very same Night that **Pleo** wrote the same dang message. I questioned this bizarre qoincidence because it is _freaky_ and I wanted others to try to help figure out why, and how, this second person knows, not just about the SK, but perhaps even that **Pleo** was our vigilante. The fact that everyone seems to ignore this, and seems to think I’m focusing on **Pleo** , is what is so. fucking. frustrating. Because _yes goddamnit I know **PLEO** was Town, and not just Town, but the Town Vigilante_. OKAY? So as it was written, so let it be BLEEDIN’ STATED AS FACT ALREADY! I was _not_ focusing on our Vigilante. I was focusing on the third dude or dudette, telling us nothing we don’t know (a SK’s standard win con), but somehow wanting us to know that s/he knows there’s an SK. And as far as I’m concerned that’s gotta be Scum, because a Townie would’ve told us something of more value. Further, I wanted to understand the mechanics of this game. Maybe I was wrong for doing so. Maybe no one else cares about the mechanics. But once I’m swinging up there on the tree, remember please that we have: 1. A Town Vigilante who was rather fortuitously informed that there’s an SK 2. Three (alleged) Masons who rather fortuitously know two other people are definitely innocent. 3. A presumed Town Resurrectionist\* That’s a lot of power and information on our side. So what I’m begging y’all to consider is that there’s no way, no way at all, that Scum doesn’t have some _serious firepower_ at their disposal if this is going to be a balanced game – because Town, by definition, is NOT supposed to have this much info at our disposal this early in the game. THAT IS WHAT I WAS CONCERNED ABOUT. Let that be my last word of defense–and it’s not so much defense as it is trying, rather desperately (like **Pizza** , indeed) to get Town to get its collective head out of its collective ass and ponder just what kind of fucked up dynamic exist over in Scumville, if it’s going to balance out our superior numbers AND the unorthodox level of power and info we have. And also, once I’m dead, please consider the people trying to dismiss and/or misstate everything I’m saying. I may be a crap player (okay, forget the “may”) but I can smell some whiff of ozone in the air when there’s a storm a-brewin’. And it’s headed straight for our Town. - Though if this person’s anything like I was as Ultimate Big Bad of **Phere** , you raise the most Towniest-seeming Townie in order to look damn good yourself. And I did. And I was Scum. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-in-progress-edited-title/646635/873 "2013-02-07T06:01:45Z")
> [@Red\_Skeezix](#): > > NETA: > > 1. Since when is “extreme fatalism” a exclusively scum trait? While I agree that we should all do our best to continue to fight to the bitter end, since when was it the objective of town to lynch those who do not? Sorry but my win condition does not say: “You win when all those not afflicted by extreme fatalism are dead.” > > Should read: > > 1. Since when is “extreme fatalism” an exclusively scum trait? While I agree that we should all do our best to continue to fight to the bitter end, since when was it the objective of town to lynch those who do not? Sorry but my win condition does not say: “You win when all those afflicted by extreme fatalism are dead.” > > Too tired to post coherently. These are my feelings as well. It is a null tell at best for people to get frustrated. I just don’t see a choie lynch as being the best choice at this point. But I can’t get excited about the case(s) against Chucara either. I do prefer people to vote where their suspicions lie instead of feeling compelled to just pick between lynch leaders, but that’s is exactly what people often feel pressured to do or are actually pressured to do. Wasn’t that a facet of the whole Pizza plan? To have this elaborate nomination process and then have people choose out of the vote leaders? It sounds fine and dandy but what if the nomination process doesn’t happen to net scum? It might be awhile before we know if any of the people gathering the most votes are scum or not. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-in-progress-edited-title/646635/874 "2013-02-07T06:08:45Z")
Page 15 catch up (My pages have 50 posts each, if you were curious. Changed that to 200 once, it was overwhelming trying to find stuff.) > [@LightFoot](#): > > in my head they are more likely truthful – as Scum would – perhaps- save theirs ---- unless we have a Scum that was under some pressure and thought they would be lynched today so they used it before death Why did you never follow up on this thought and take a look through the thread for this potential near-death scum? > [@Mahaloth](#): > > \*\* ”The Serial Killer will win if not dead. –- The Butcher"\*\* > > […] > > ``` > "the wolf’s cannot kill the Serial killer."** > > ``` > > Combine this with Pleo’s and the sk has gained some good info. Assuming he didn’t have it. Why do you think the SK didn’t already know the first bit of info, and why do you think the second bit is necessarily true? > [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > The third message is the most puzzling to me. I wouldn’t think that the Wolves would be aware at this stage of the game that they can’t kill the SK, and I don’t think the SK would offer up that information on his own, so I’m guessing there is a role in the game whose specific purpose is to locate and eliminate the SK. either that, or it’s misinformation (on whose part I don’t know). > > In any case, I think the only thing we can take from these messages is that there is in fact a Serial Killer in the game, and that if we think we’ve found him we ought to lynch him ourselves, rather than waiting for the Scum to take him out for us. So you believe the quote came from neither the wolves nor the SK and may be misinformation, but we should follow it anyway and lynch the SK? Further, you posit that there might be a role whose SOLE PURPOSE is to eliminate the SK (and we know it’s not Pleo, because he likely left the other message), but we shouldn’t trust that role to do their SPECIFIC purpose and instead should burn a lynch on him? That earns a :dubious: all on its own. > [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > In other news, I received this message at Dawn Today: > > > [@storyteller0910](#): > > > > Last night, though you slept soundly, you woke with an uneasy feeling. You have the sense that somehow, you evaded a terrible fate. > > I don’t know what it means… This bothers me too, but not enough to call it scummy. I’m not sure why you’d get a message, and it’d be easy to accuse you of faking it, but it’s not a lynching offense for me, not until I can see if other players corroborate getting such messages. I’ve seen others suggest the same, and I think it’s the most prudent action. > [@GuiriEnEspana](#): > > That’s a good point, from #57 we know there’s at least one win-stealing 3rd party who cannot win before D5 so there’s something wrong with this message. The obvious conclusion is that the game may be balanced to end on D5 in a worst-case scenario, and that there is nothing wrong with that message. Assuming slightly less than 1/4th of the 27 players are scum (which I think is balanced with 3 deaths a night) would look like this: All numbers are at the START of that round. Day 1 - 20 town, 6 scum, 1 SK - mislynch Night 1 - 19 town, 6 scum, 1 SK - 3 town kills Day 2 - 16 town, 6 scum, 1 SK - mislynch Night 2 - 15 town, 6 scum, 1 SK - 3 town kills Day 3 - 12 town, 6 scum, 1 SK - mislynch Night 3 - 11 town, 6 scum, 1 SK - 3 town kills Day 4 - 8 town, 6 scum, 1 SK - mislynch Night 4 - 7 town, 6 scum, 1 SK - 3 town kills (game over here?) Day 5 - 4 town, 6 scum, 1 SK (game over?) As that quick run down shows, the balance doesn’t quite work out. But I don’t think the messages necessarily conflict, just that I haven’t accounted for something. > [@Meeko](#): > > One wonders how much on the barn, per the player submitted messages, is wine. Or if it is all wine. Perhaps scum would burn their barn writing on the first night to this end. Why do you wonder this? I’m 99% sure the first message came from Pleo. It doesn’t make sense coming from anyone else, as it does nothing to further the agende of the SK or the “wolf’s”. The second isn’t wine, as it clearly had an intended target that we (at the time) weren’t privy to. The last is reasonably considered wine, but you add nothing to the conversation you came late to. Why suggest the scum posted these messages if you make no follow-up effort to explain why they’d do that or for what end? > [@](#): > > Also, if pleonast wrote his message, it could have been colored blue after his death - no one can color messages, but they are colored for us by the mod after the author dies. Do you believe that suggesting Storyteller might reveal who posted a message to the barn might conflict with the following quote I’m going to leave right here? > [@storyteller0910](#): > > There is no game mechanism by which the source of a given message may be revealed to any player. And while we’re at it… > [@LightFoot](#): > > The blue could simply be the Mod acknowledging that the player has been revealed already as Town Aaaarrrghhhh! 😃 > [@TexCat](#): > > I was obviously wrong about Pleo’s motivation for saving Chucara, but I still think Chucara looks scummy. > > \*\*vote: Chucara \*\* Tex! You can’t say you were wrong about the premise of your vote, but _still right about Chucara at the same time!_ **Vote TexCat.** For the lazy vote after no discussion about Chucara at all. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-in-progress-edited-title/646635/875 "2013-02-07T06:32:01Z")
Page 16 catchup: > [@DiggitCamara](#): > > Town always has a less information than scums do. So, this information would definitely help Town far more than it would hamper it at this early stage. Masons who come out too late in the game represent a problem for town, since there’s always the risk that there’s a simultaneous outing of a fake masonic brotherhood (composed of scum). Right now, however, if we had 3 or more of our number confirmed (by investigations, hopefully ), we would narrow down our field of suspects. I disagree, although I believe your motives are (likely) pure. Masons are great at the end game, because scum won’t counter-claim them. If town gets the lynch test right, the game is just about over. To be honest, the only time I’ve seen scum successfully claim mason was when there wasn’t a real mason team in the game. Further, I’d prefer any investigators didn’t waste time confirming masons, since their “point” is to confirm each other. Now, one warning - it _seems_ that we have an unusually powerful town team so far. Some of our power roles may in fact be scum in disguise. I’d like to suggest that _if_ our team continues to seem too powerful AND one or more masons survive into the late game after they’re revealed, one of them might be a scummer. It’s probably not Diggit, as a scum Diggit would have no reason to fish for his teammates to out themselves - the scum team already knows by virtue of Diggit who they are. It’s unlikely. Just something I’m on guard for ever since I heard about it winning the game for scum before. > [@choie](#): > > If Masons were always easy to prove as honest, wouldn’t **Diggit** be correct in saying they might as well reveal themselves now? There’s probably some subtlety here I’m not getting, but it must be said I’m missing anything subtler than a wrecking ball to the head right now. Scum must eventually kill them, as the masons count against the scum win condition and shrink the hiding pool scum have. If town happens to lynch one, they’re likewise confirmed. Early on, scum can “waste” kills on masons to clear them out, if they know who they are. Later on, scum often have to choose between firing at a mason, or clearing out other powers / useful players on their trail / good targets for misinformation kills. They have far more flexibility early on, and less later. That’s why a late mason game can seriously restrict scum play. By the way, it bothers me how you mention that you’re “stupid” in so many of your posts when you’re obviously not. Or…. > [@USCDiver](#): > > The downside is that having 2-3 confirmed Town out of 24 players is not as useful as having 2-3 confirmed Town out of 10 players. Sure the Doctor can play WIFOM with Scum, but if the Masons are not in any more danger than any other Townie why should they claim now? What he said. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-in-progress-edited-title/646635/876 "2013-02-07T06:59:03Z")
Page 17 catchup: > [@TexCat](#): > > Votes (9) for Chucara Yesterday: > Lightfoot (300), Texcat (334), Mahaloth (337), Silver Jan (351), fubbleskag (361), orthohedron (434), wombat99 (612), RedSkeezix (619), Pleonast (625) > > Did something happen to make the other 8 of you think that Chucara is not scum toDay? If anything, I think narrowly losing to town Pizza makes it more likely that Chucara is scum. After coming close to the lynch yesterDay, he appears to be much quieter toDay, not posting at all yet toDay. Why do you want others to make your case for you? This doesn’t sit right with me in terms of “making a compelling case that will likely net scum and convince others to follow your vote.” It’s not entirely a smudge, but it’s too general. And why limit yourself only to final votes? I had a vote on Chucara for most of the day, for instance; why not call out me? > [@choie](#): > > It’s kind of hard to argue a case that says basically “you’re talking too much about the _only new information we’ve received_, and also the only information **anyone** is talking about.” I completely disagree. We have three fresh bodies and the entirety of Day 1 to review. It’s fair to point out your posts at the time made little effort to find scum, and you can’t support your posts by saying there was nothing else to talk about. > [@DiggitCamara](#): > > My main point (which I made before) still stands: I think it’s pretty good information for Town to have. Think of it like an Investigator who had solid information on 3 Town folk. I get it. We just disagree on strategy, is all. I missed your earlier explanation, as I was hurriedly trying to follow along on my phone at work. > [@choie](#): > > I’m not trying to be a martyr here. Truth is, it’s not fun to have everything, from silly punctuation jokes to genuine attempts to get things that I saw as inconsistencies clarified to self-admission of my weaknesses as a player **edited to add:** to my not particularly original mention of a well-known poet, turned against me. That’s a genuine shame, although I get where you’re coming from. Remember that this is all just part of the game, and we’re actually pretty nice people most of the time. 😃 > [@fubbleskag](#): > > votes on **choie** : > > DiggitCamara: “you pay too much attention to grammar” > Stanislaus: “you talk a alot, about the wrong things, and seem to know it” > Enderw24: “ya, what he said” > Mahaloth: “you don’t want to get lynched and you’re sulking about it. oh and you’ve been scum before!” > USCDiver: “you suck at reading, you’re obsessed, and you voted yourself” > Meeko: “I’M MEEKO!” > > these would be weak votes on Day 1, guys… I don’t think you’ve been entirely fair in characterizing their votes. **Vote Fubbleskag** > [@Chucara](#): > > Then lynch me - get it out of your system. There is little I can do but point out the flaws in your logic. Scum does not want to make noise - which is why I was certain Pizza was town. I think scum try to post _like they would post as town._ > [@choie](#): > > Honestly I’m voting you not so much to see you swing, but to see how _others_ react. What reactions were you looking for? Did anyone react noticeably? Have you done any followup on players who reacted/didn’t react to your vote for Chucara? If you haven’t, why not? > [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > I believe choie self-voted in De’endee as townie. I don’t believe she did, and further don’t believe she was ever in lynch danger. Of course, by virtue of typing these words, the very atoms of the universe have likely rewritten that thread to make it so, just to prove me wrong. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-in-progress-edited-title/646635/877 "2013-02-07T07:05:23Z")
> [@wombat99](#): > > **Vote Chucara** > > I’m in the same boat as Yesterday regarding **Chucara**. I don’t think the lynch leader is scum, he’s in second place, I’m not totally convinced he’s scum, but I think he’s more likely to be scum than **Choie**. This is the entirety of your case on Chucara yesterday: > [@wombat99](#): > > \*\*Chucara’s \*\*early pancakes vote could have simply been a joke, or it could have been a subtle anxiousness to put a vote down and appear to be participating in Pizza’s plan. That gives me a small ping of scumminess; I think he’s slightly more likely than \*\*RyJae \*\*to be scum. Do you have any additional comments to make about Chucara, or are you still voting for him because of his pancakes vote? There have actually been some interesting cases made for a Chucara lynch, and I find it curious you don’t reference any of them. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-in-progress-edited-title/646635/878 "2013-02-07T09:11:52Z")
I. Cannot. Believe. I. Typed. A. 20,000 word reply. And. My. Internet. Went. Down. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck. When will I learn to copy/paste replies before sending them? WHEN O LORD? Starting again. Crap, it’s never gonna be as good as the first draft! > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > I disagree, although I believe your motives are (likely) pure. Masons are great at the end game, because scum won’t counter-claim them. If town gets the lynch test right, the game is just about over. OMG. Okay, this? Starts to make sense! For the first time I’m beginning to understand this Mason strategy!!! So–so if I get you, the idea is that as you say later, Mason reveals are better left for the end because they constitute a larger percentage of players, and thus once they’re claimed, late-playing Townies will have a _smaller_ percentage of Scum players to choose from. Therefore, by claiming early, Masons put both themselves and the rest of us at a disadvantage, because early on, they’re only a small percentage of the whole pool of players, and so Scum would be wise to kill them off (especially since “wasting” kills isn’t really a thing, except unless they’re worried about the power roles as you say, but power roles are crapshoots; it’s important for Scum to kill off as many Townies as possible since that’s their WinCon. Am I right, or close? Hot dayum, I think I am! Now I _really_ feel like “Temba, his eyes uncovered!” or whatever it was Darmok said. Okay, so **Diggit** , what do you think about this? What’s your counterpoint to this argument? > [@](#): > > Now, one warning - it _seems_ that we have an unusually powerful town team so far. Some of our power roles may in fact be scum in disguise. HALLE-FREAKIN’-LUJAH, I’m on the same page with someone! My death, if it occurs, feels way more freeing. > [@](#): > > I’d like to suggest that _if_ our team continues to seem too powerful AND one or more masons survive into the late game after they’re revealed, one of them might be a scummer. It’s probably not Diggit, as a scum Diggit would have no reason to fish for his teammates to out themselves - the scum team already knows by virtue of Diggit who they are. No but wait, aren’t you contradicting your earlier thesis? Because if **Diggit** is some kind of scum-mole-acting-as-Mason, then it’s to Scum’s advantage to get the real Masons to claim early, and thus fulfilling the strategy mentioned above. That said, I’m not accusing **Diggit**. Firstly, because while the objective part of me is almost appreciative of such a plot–this is the part of me who’d _love_ to have the skills and evil genius to pull off creating such a mechanic (it’s so nefarious it seems like a **pizza** -setup to me, and that’s a compliment to our current mod)–I’m not sure it’s really likely, because dayum, that’s cold. And secondly, because **Diggit** doesn’t have to be the Scum-mole in this hypothetical Masonic Triangle. **Diggit** could have posted that message genuinely, just happening to fall in line with the Scum team’s wishes. I could go either way. If **Diggit** is as ignorant as I was (no offense) to the rationale behind the whole raison d’etre behind Masons, then s/he could’ve posted in good faith, just wrongly. Or **Diggit** could be a daring yet dastardly Scum mole. The sort who might be played by Claude Rains back in the day, or Kevin Spacey / Gene Hackman now. (Geeze, where _is_ Gene Hackman? Sorry for the digression, it just seems like it’s been a while since I’ve heard of him being in a film.) > [@](#): > > By the way, it bothers me how you mention that you’re “stupid” in so many of your posts when you’re obviously not. Well thank you, but honestly, if you read my posts throughout the SDMB, you’d know my self-esteem is pretty much as rare as a Fabrege egg and just as fragile. It takes almost nothing to get me to doubt myself. …Although the ironic thing is that the post you were quoting (the “wrecking ball” post) wasn’t me ranking on my gameplay for once. I think I’d mentioned that I’d been up for over 24 hours (waaay over.. I ended up going 44 hours without sleep) struggling with a website design – **fubbleskag** , you’ll be amused to know it involved WordPress, a desperate attempt to customize a theme to match my responsive static website layout for a client; I _really_ have a stumbling block when it comes to WP, argh!). So my kvetching about foggy-headedness was just due to exhaustion, not an inability to grasp the nuances of this game. Frankly I’m astonished I wasn’t posting by just mashing the keyboard with my forehead. > [@](#): > > I completely disagree. We have three fresh bodies and the entirety of Day 1 to review. It’s fair to point out your posts at the time made little effort to find scum, and you can’t support your posts by saying there was nothing else to talk about. Was _anyone_ talking about the bodies? The only scum people were trying to find was me, or so it seemed. And finding scum among D1 posts seems really hard to do, for the same reason finding scum _on_ D1 is hard to do. At least that’s how it feels to me. This is why I usually keep quiet until midgame when I have more stuff to look over. I’m really–and I’m sorry if you think this is false modesty but I genuinely don’t see how anyone can think otherwise after playing with me–not very good at assessing people’s motives or the mechanics of different roles. Me write fairly good, yes. Me not strategize so good. Sometimes my ability to express myself masks a shocking lack of, um, grokkery. > [@](#): > > That’s a genuine shame, although I get where you’re coming from. Remember that this is all just part of the game, and we’re actually pretty nice people most of the time. 😃 I know, that’s true. I guess I get extra frustrated because I keep trying to play this game and yet I still feel very much as if I’m just as inexperienced as when my jangling spurs first trod on the dusty streets of **De’endee**. The trouble is the mechanics. They change every game! It’s like I’m walking on a rocky path but the rocks I think are solidly embedded in the ground keep shifting and sending me off-balance. I know that’s the fun of it for many people, figuring out the different creative ways the hosts/mods have crafted and tweaked the game, but I can barely follow a flat-out vanilla game (when I’ve read one). These weirdo games just make me downtrodden and feel I’ll never fit in. I’ve said this before, but it feels as if I’ve stumbled into a game of Mornington Crescent and you’re all just making this shit up behind my back; meanwhile I’m staring incomprehensibly at a London Underground map and Googling trying in vain to find exactly how the St. Pancras-to-Aldwych Loop Gambit works when stirrups have been declared. [quote] What reactions were you looking for? Did anyone react noticeably? Have you done any followup on players who reacted/didn’t react to your vote for Chucara? If you haven’t, why not? [quote] (Ugh, as a side note this is the part that I most regret losing in my internet fail.) What led me to vote for **Chucara** , and what I was looking for, were people who had voted for **Chucara** the day before and were suddenly, noticeably, not voting for **Chucara** Today. What I found was that there was one, maybe two votes on **Chucara** –not a big number but a third vote would start putting **Chucara** a bit in play. Would people start to feel edgy about not repeating their flimsy rationale for voting **Chucara** on D1? A few did, noticeably **Mahaloth** and **USCDiver** , and their votes weren’t much more reasoned than they were Yesterday. Quite honestly I know I’m Town and _I_ think there’s more of a rationale to vote against me than there is **Chucara** , on paper, anyway. So I’m starting to feel suspicious. What am I suspicious of? Bussing. I think Scum are going to bus someone early, get some street cred for themselves and bank it for later. Since **Chucara** was almost lynched Yesterday, and was still semi-at-risk Today (in 2nd place soon after everyone unvoted **Diggit** ), it’s quite possible that some Scum have put **Chucara** up for a sacrifice gambit. This way, even when I’m lynched, and **Chucara** is pretty much inevitably lynched afterward because two town flips when **Chucara** comes in narrow 2nd place seems like a guaranteed Day 3 lynch to me, if **Chucara** flips Scum, they’ve at least put themselves on the record as having done some good Scumspotting. (Well duh, **choie** , that’s what bussing is all about; how very useful to instruct someone who’s played 304933475 more games than you!) > [@](#): > > I don’t believe she did, and further don’t believe she was ever in lynch danger. Of course, by virtue of typing these words, the very atoms of the universe have likely rewritten that thread to make it so, just to prove me wrong. 😃 Dude you are _not_ getting me to read that thread again! I won’t do it! But I’m pretty sure I _was_ in lynch danger, but it wasn’t because of self-voting, it was because I voted for someone, then _in the same post_ **unvoted** him/her. (God knows who. I’m sure **pizza** keeps a chart of these things somewhere in his lair on Skullcrusher Mountain.) My problem was, as it is now, that I tend to post as I think of things, letting y’all see how my mind works things out in public. It’s not a pretty sight, but it’s an honest one. Unfortunately I guess people weren’t so used to someone being that crazily open about being confused, and after I did that, there was a hue and a cry and people were clucking their tongues and clutching their beards and saying things about “what’s to be done about this **choie** gal?” There was a barrage of _J’accuses_ all up in my face, and I basically got at _least_ to 2nd place, if not tied for 1st, as a result. Only a subsequent cool-down period, and perhaps an even stupider move on the lynch leader’s part, saved me from the block. And, btw, I was Town then too. I’ve played three games besides this one; Town twice, Super-Scum (the only one) once. And I have to say it’s probably going to be hard to judge my play as Scum based on **Phere** , because that was _such_ a weird game, considering I was literally unable to strategize or even talk with anyone, except when asking for rules clarifications or ordering “Phere” ( **pizza** , the mod) to do stuff. So I was all alone and as a newbie, totally improvising how to behave as Scum. Never even felt good about the win, because as everyone complained afterward, they felt it was an unfair game and I was way too overpowered. WHEW. Okay. So, I think that’s everything. Still not as good as the first draft. But at least I’m typing it in EditPad rather than the damn message board reply form. Not gonna catch me out twice! ---
**Author:** ![fubbleskag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fubbleskag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fubbleskag)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-in-progress-edited-title/646635/879 "2013-02-07T12:34:25Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > 1. It’s Day 2. So saying these are weak votes as compared to literally yesterDay doesn’t hold much water. We still don’t have a ton to go on here. > > 2. They’re only weak votes if you carelessly or deliberately misinterpret the rationale behind these votes, which you have. > > 3. It’s funny. I see an awful lot of complaining going on here and in the multitude of other posts you’ve made in the last 24 hours…but no actual scum hunting. And no voting. Why is that I wonder? > > Maybe I don’t need to wonder. Maybe it’s because scum likes riding bandwagons and not pressing people too hard. > > Vote fubbleskag I said that they would have been weak votes even on Day 1, which they would have been - but better than a vote for ‘pancakes’ I suppose. I paraphrased for my own entertainment, but I don’t believe I’ve misinterpreted any of the votes.\* I still want to hear from these voters to explain, solidify or back-up their vote reasons. (I believe you may have already done this). also, would you mind explaining how exactly I can be riding a bandwagon while simultaneously not voting? - I did misread one of Mahaloth’s statements, addressed up-thread. ---
**Author:** ![fubbleskag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fubbleskag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fubbleskag)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-in-progress-edited-title/646635/880 "2013-02-07T12:37:08Z")
> [@Asktheundeadpizzaguy](#): > > When has that stopped anyone. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-in-progress-edited-title/646635.md?page=43) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-in-progress-edited-title/646635.md?page=45)