# \[Mafia game\] The Realm of Phere **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 1, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480 "2012-04-01T15:04:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 135
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2681 "2012-05-08T17:05:34Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > The phrasing of the “reveal” isn’t suspicious in itself; that’s just bending over backwards to avoid the appearance of quoting. Well either that or he didn’t have a plausible role to claim – he obviously wasn’t a soldier if he was capable of watching someone that first night. > > What would you do, Gadarene, if you had an affirmative night power like GC seems to have, and someone asked you for a role reveal? Depends on whether I thought that “someone” was Town or not. You’re essentially saying that when I asked for a good faith exchange of information, he blatantly lied to me, and was justified in doing so? Why would he contact me to begin with wanting to know my role if he wasn’t willing to reciprocate to some extent? And I also assume that you don’t think him failing to follow up after I didn’t respond to his last post is suspicious at all, because you never give me an inch of leeway and we disagree on absolutely everything. Which makes me sad, because you remain one of my strongest Town leans, and yet you’ve never treated me with anything approaching a willingness to work together. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2682 "2012-05-08T17:06:45Z")
I mean, Jesus Christ, I volunteered to him that I was a power role when he asked me to out my information. And you’re telling me that it’s reasonable for him to lie to me in exchange? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2683 "2012-05-08T17:08:58Z")
And anyway, I agree that the phrasing of the reveal isn’t necessarily suspicious in itself – just odd to me, as I noted above. The most suspicious parts of the exchange to me were his initial reticence, the delay between his second message and his third message, and the fact that he didn’t follow up with me when I failed to respond to his third message. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2684 "2012-05-08T17:23:29Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > Depends on whether I thought that “someone” was Town or not. You’re essentially saying that when I asked for a good faith exchange of information, he blatantly lied to me, and was justified in doing so? Well, you didn’t ask. You completed your half of the exchange prior to him actually agreeing to exchange anything. That’s just a wee bit manipulative. To answer your question from your next post: no, I don’t think that lying in such a situation is inherently suspicious, though I’d probably have just stonewalled you myself because I’m obnoxious that way. He is, if town, someone with a night power. Why should you get to learn that? > [@](#): > > Why would he contact me to begin with wanting to know my role if he wasn’t willing to reciprocate to some extent? Wrong question to ask me given I did that very thing myself. You’ll have to ask him. > [@](#): > > And I also assume that you don’t think him failing to follow up after I didn’t respond to his last post is suspicious at all, because you never give me an inch of leeway and we disagree on absolutely everything. Which makes me sad, because you remain one of my strongest Town leans, and yet you’ve never treated me with anything approaching a willingness to work together. I’ll give you that one slightly – in his position, if town, I’d probably be quite nervous, not hearing from you, and want to do something about it. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2685 "2012-05-08T17:32:10Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Well, you didn’t ask. You completed your half of the exchange prior to him actually agreeing to exchange anything. That’s just a wee bit manipulative. To answer your question from your next post: no, I don’t think that lying in such a situation is inherently suspicious, though I’d probably have just stonewalled you myself because I’m obnoxious that way. He is, if town, someone with a night power. Why should you get to learn that? No, I didn’t. As you well know, I had additional information about my role that I did NOT share with him – such as my number of hit points, what powers I had, etc. And I made that clear in my initial message to him as well: “If you tell me what you are and what you do with some reasonable degree of specificity, I will tell you what I do.” So don’t mischaracterize the nature of the exchange and try to suggest that I was being manipulative. I wasn’t. I was acting in good faith, and I had more to tell him if I was satisfied in his townieness. Okay? Jesus. And yes, you are obnoxious that way. I’m getting tired of your constant raised eyebrow towards me. I out my exchange with gnarlycharlie and talk about why I’m suspicious of him, and what you get out of it is that I’M BEING MANIPULATIVE AND HE’S JUSTIFIED IN LYING TO ME? Give me a break. He’s the one who approached me! I’m the one who volunteered some (NOT ALL) information as a show of good faith. But it’s totally cool and not at all notable that he lied to me. Okay then. > [@](#): > > I’ll give you that one slightly – in his position, if town, I’d probably be quite nervous, not hearing from you, and want to do something about it. Oh, you’ll give me that “slightly”? Gosh, thanks, Normal. Mighty nice of you. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2686 "2012-05-08T17:48:02Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > No, I didn’t. As you well know, I had additional information about my role that I did NOT share with him – such as my number of hit points, what powers I had, etc. And I made that clear in my initial message to him as well: “If you tell me what you are and what you do with some reasonable degree of specificity, I will tell you what I do.” So don’t mischaracterize the nature of the exchange and try to suggest that I was being manipulative. I wasn’t. I was acting in good faith, and I had more to tell him if I was satisfied in his townieness. > > Okay? Jesus. > > And yes, you are obnoxious that way. I’m getting tired of your constant raised eyebrow towards me. > > I out my exchange with gnarlycharlie and talk about why I’m suspicious of him, and what you get out of it is that I’M BEING MANIPULATIVE AND HE’S JUSTIFIED IN LYING TO ME? Give me a break. He’s the one who approached me! I’m the one who volunteered some (NOT ALL) information as a show of good faith. But it’s totally cool and not at all notable that he lied to me. Okay then. > > Oh, you’ll give me that “slightly”? Gosh, thanks, Normal. Mighty nice of you. :rolleyes: I seem to be pissing people off left and right this game. Maybe I should just shut up. ---
**Author:** ![BobArrgh](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobarrgh/32/2881_2.png) [@BobArrgh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobArrgh)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2687 "2012-05-08T17:59:57Z")
FWIW, Gad, I’ve played several games with Normal Phase, and I think she looks at EVERYBODY with raised eyebrows. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2688 "2012-05-08T18:02:09Z")
> [@BobArrgh](#): > > FWIW, Gad, I’ve played several games with Normal Phase, and I think she looks at EVERYBODY with raised eyebrows. 😃 Except gnarlycharlie, apparently. He lied? Oh, that’s totally cool and understandable. Serves me right for responding to his initial PM with anything other than hackles fully raised, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2689 "2012-05-08T18:06:15Z")
You’d have a heck of a time playing with Pizza, Gadarene. I think you have to look at the reason for a lie, and there’s enough motivation for a townie power role to choose to minimize his role when pressed for information that I just can’t see this particular one as other than a null tell. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2690 "2012-05-08T18:11:17Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > You’d have a heck of a time playing with Pizza, Gadarene. > > I think you have to look at the reason for a lie, and there’s enough motivation for a townie power role to choose to minimize his role when pressed for information that I just can’t see this particular one as other than a null tell. Are you choosing to ignore the part of my response to you where I corrected your false statement that I “completed [my] half of the exchange prior to him actually agreeing to exchange anything”? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2691 "2012-05-08T18:18:15Z")
Normal: I’m not saying that gnarlycharlie is irredeemably scummy because he lied. (I think he’s scummy for other reasons that I have already articulated.) I’m just not sure how your only real takeaway from the exchange I quoted is that _I_ was being manipulative and that I’M the one who that exchange paints in a bad light. Like, I literally don’t understand. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2692 "2012-05-08T18:23:52Z")
Yes, because I’m fucking tired of arguing. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2693 "2012-05-08T18:26:16Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Yes, because I’m fucking tired of arguing. So you say something that’s blatantly untrue, and when I contest and correct it, you just ignore me? Awesome. I don’t know what I did to get in your bad books, but it’s frustrating. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2694 "2012-05-08T18:26:55Z")
Wait. I can’t dig up the relevant quotes, but didn’t Normal Phase post a series of PMs between her and realitytrip where he **implicitly** lied to town by asking “where did these two night attacks come from?” when one of them was his, and she presented this as evidence of scumminess? But now she’s totally cool with gnarlycharlie **explicitly** lying? Normal, what’s with the cognitive dissonance? ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2695 "2012-05-08T18:30:46Z")
I was trying to express how that exchange would have come across to me, were I in gnarly’s shoes (and a townie); and how that might motivate a lie. I don’t even know if GC is scummy or not. I’m so sick of being pushed to defend my words to such a ridiculous extent that it takes up all the air in the room. I wind up defending gnarly when I don’t even know if I want to – it’s just this one thing. Or like with the Astral thing, and me taking the entire brunt of backlash for the bandwagon on him – why? Just because I’m here and too stupid to know when to quit? ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2696 "2012-05-08T18:33:06Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Wait. > > I can’t dig up the relevant quotes, but didn’t Normal Phase post a series of PMs between her and realitytrip where he **implicitly** lied to town by asking “where did these two night attacks come from?” when one of them was his, and she presented this as evidence of scumminess? > > But now she’s totally cool with gnarlycharlie **explicitly** lying? Normal, what’s with the cognitive dissonance? AAARGH! There is a goddamn difference between misleading the town UNPROVOKED and for no reason whatsoever, as RT may have done (and his having misled about an ATTACK, to boot); and telling a minimizing lie to someone who’s asking for your role information in private and whom you have no reason to trust. That is all, I am done here. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2697 "2012-05-08T18:34:56Z")
As a preamble, I must say I don’t understand the point of the “no quoting from our role PMs” rule as it’s so easily broken. Clearly this rule means nothing due to the ability to talk privately (although at least **gnarlycharlie** gave it a bit of a twist in his exchange with **Gadarene** ). Anyway, I’m still processing the activity that ended the Day. First, I find it weird, in fact downright bizarre, that the triple-voter wasted his/her votes on someone who was already the vote leader. Why did someone want **MHaye** dead so very badly? Or perhaps the question should be, why did someone want _someone else_ (presumably him- or herself, but it could be a scumbuddy) safe so badly? This person might have been afraid that **Normal** would switch votes at the last minute and put one of the runners-up in the lead. Another likely possibility: the votes were placed earlier in the Day and we didn’t see them because **pizzaguy** was too busy to post them. I also don’t understand why people are obviously so determined to kill **gnarlycharlie** , allegedly because he’s scum, but didn’t place their votes on him. Why do something in secret (an attack) rather than a public vote? But speaking of anonymous attacks, whoever used that powerful ring and caused actual visible damage to Phere deserves a big hug. That was epic! > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > After 4 Days and 3 Nights we only have 5 dead, this could be a very long game. Clearly it will be, but personally I think it’s good that there’ve been fewer dead people – at least, fewer dead Townies, considering that a) we’re already doing a good job of killing ourselves via mislynchings, alas, and b) someone (either the Traitor or scum, presumably) is trying very hard to kill more of us during the Day phase, which at least in my experience is not a typical Mafia capability. We usually only have one dead person at the end of a Day: the lynchee. The lack of _night kills_ is odd, but I think despite our poor lynching ratio, we’re clearly using our protective powers remarkably well. Which is damn lucky for us. Speaking of which, thanks to **Normal** for protecting me! I was fully expecting to be attacked, and surprise, surprise…I was. Hmm, I wonder who has it in for me so badly? P.S. to **Normal** : **Gadarene** has an incredibly short fuse this game. I don’t think you should shut up, or blame yourself once he goes off into his CAPS LOCK OF RAGE. Just step slowly back before his pending aneurysm explodes and you get brain shrapnel over you. ( **Mosier** , however, should probably stand closer. Free eats!) ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2698 "2012-05-08T18:37:54Z")
Thanks for the respect, choie. I obviously had no reason at all be frustrated by Normal’s response to me, and I was definitely just overreacting. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2699 "2012-05-08T18:42:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Anyway, I’m still processing the activity that ended the Day. First, I find it weird, in fact downright bizarre, that the triple-voter wasted his/her votes on someone who was already the vote leader. Why did someone want MHaye dead so very badly? Or perhaps the question should be, why did someone want someone else (presumably him- or herself, but it could be a scumbuddy) safe so badly? This person might have been afraid that Normal would switch votes at the last minute and put one of the runners-up in the lead. Scathach, if anyone. I had expressed suspicion of her. Gadarene, we just need to stop talking for a while, OK? It’s not helping. I’ll be back tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2700 "2012-05-08T18:42:56Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Or like with the Astral thing, and me taking the entire brunt of backlash for the bandwagon on him – why? Just because I’m here and too stupid to know when to quit? Two things. 1. For better or for worse, you were one of the largest contributors to my lynch. You disputed everything I said, cast aspersions on my motivations, voted and devoted me repeatedly, and revisited the case time and again. Given that, is it truly surprising that you’d face some backlash for your actions? 2. Given that, _what backlash?_ As far as I can remember offhand, I’m the only person who followed up on “people who voted and unvoted for Astral Rejection,” at your request. I told people to vote you after my death. Not only was I the only person really voting for you, I can’t remember anyone seriously investigating you after my death. You’ve never been in danger of getting lynched. You mention in post after post how you’re still paranoid about me. Why am I not allowed to voice similar lingering suspicions? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480.md?page=134) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480.md?page=136)