# \[Mafia game\] The Realm of Phere **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 1, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480 "2012-04-01T15:04:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 148
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2941 "2012-05-14T21:33:53Z")
You didn’t cite your post correctly, so there’s no blue triangle to take me to it. I have no idea what the context was of that post. It seems to me you were talking to Gadarene. I’ll point out, Gadarene flipped town, and Gadarene was satisfied that the discrepancy between our PMs was on Pizza’s end. You’ll note he never brings it up as an issue again. Since he flipped town, you know he isn’t my scum buddy. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2942 "2012-05-14T21:39:48Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > On an unrelated note, I’d like to reiterate what I said to Gadarene via PM and had him quote into the thread: I believe Mosier may be a threat to town. I’d like for us to discuss this possibility. He was explicitly raised by Phere, and my interpretation of Phere is that he’s a color representation of the actions taken by the forces arrayed against us. Not always true. He killed scum last night. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2943 "2012-05-14T21:45:21Z")
You’re assuming Weedy was part of the scum team. ---
**Author:** ![Tanaer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tanaer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanaer)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2944 "2012-05-14T22:05:03Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > That’s the _minor_ confusion. > > The _ **major** _ confusion is why Gadarene was warned of a win-condition change and you, allegedly, were not. I was also warned of a win condition change. And in fact my new role PM Today is very specific about which direction lay fights and guards. Pizza seems to be trying to be clearer about this stuff as he goes on. Astral’s was first, wasn’t it? Was his statement before Pizza made the rule change about how fast alignments could shift? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2945 "2012-05-14T22:10:32Z")
Sometimes conversations on these boards feel like dental surgery. > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > I don’t know what you’re getting at. You posted it today at 1:46, I responded today at 3:00. 😕 😕 😕 Was this a joke? The context should have been crystal clear, unless you’re one of these guys who insists each post begin with _tabula rasa_. > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > You didn’t cite your post correctly, Is this another joke? It is was immediately prior to the Gadarene post I did give you a blue triangle for. And I stated the post number. And, anyway, the real confusion is why you didn’t respond to it when I posted it 2 or 3 weeks ago. > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > so there’s no blue triangle to take me to it.I’ll point out, Gadarene flipped town, and Gadarene was satisfied that the discrepancy between our PMs was on Pizza’s end. I brought it up again with Gadarene in PM and he finally agreed it seemed strange. I knew he was in PM collusion with you, and still didn’t seem over-concerned, so I almost forgot about it… Anyway, this is all OOG – I don’t have much of a scum lean on you. I just found this dialog very frustrating – if we were in BBQ Pit I’d say either you’re an ••••• or you think I’m an ••••• or both. Don’t bother to respond to this. In fact, since you admit that a post by septimus suggesting you might be lying is of no interest to you unless it contains a direct question, don’t bother responding to any of my posts unless I ask you a direct question. ---
**Author:** ![Tanaer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tanaer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanaer)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2946 "2012-05-14T22:13:38Z")
> [@Tanaer](#): > > I was also warned of a win condition change. And in fact my new role PM Today is very specific about which direction lay fights and guards. Pizza seems to be trying to be clearer about this stuff as he goes on. > > Astral’s was first, wasn’t it? Was his statement before Pizza made the rule change about how fast alignments could shift? Let me addend that - although my new role PM is very specific it’s not completely clear - attacking seems to be both chaotic and evil. I’m waiting on a clarification from Pizza. I was definitely offered a choice about alignment change. If we’re to take Pizza at his word, we won’t be forced into an alignment with a different win condition. (Based on his answer to the recruitment question). It’s not inconceivable we’d be forced into an alignment that’s _compatible_ with our current win condition, if we behaved more like that (moral/law) alignment than our current one. I must say that attacking the demon feels like an odd thing to be evil, compared to lynching townies, however accidentally. Unless, and this just occurred to me, the king is still in there somewhere and we’re damaging him! ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2947 "2012-05-14T22:40:52Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > You’re assuming Weedy was part of the scum team. Less a stretch than your assumption, “Phere is always deliberately anti-town.” ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2948 "2012-05-14T22:56:12Z")
Are you in a bad mood, Septimus? The real reason I didn’t address your question is that I don’t remember seeing it. I either glossed over it, or forgot about it. I play most of this game on my phone, and it’s exceptionally easy to miss things that way. (Like when the end of the day is, perhaps?) I’m guessing that I didn’t answer it because it wasn’t addressed to me, and thus I missed it. I don’t think you’re a pile of letters, and I’m kinda sad you think I am. Tempers seem to be flaring quite a bit in this game, for whatever reason. I feel like my thought process makes sense, and yours does too, once we cleared up our mutual misunderstanding: Here’s the chain of comments: > [@glee](#): > > 1. In post 2 of this thread, we are told: > > “During the day or night, you may perform an action which affects the karma of your character. Good or lawful actions may shift you in that direction, unlawful or violent actions may shift you in the other direction.” > > How do you know your alignment isn’t forcibly changed? Glee is talking about good, lawful, unlawful, and violent actions shifting your “karma.” Glee then asks if your alignment can be forcibly changed. Here’s my response: > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > GuiriEnEspana and I have both been offered a chance to change our alignments as a result of our actions. This was an entirely voluntary choice. I ignored it, opting to stay my current alignment so I can see the much-vaunted beast master role. From my perspective, glee is talking about “actions” shifting your “karma.” According to pizza via my character updates, attacking people each day gave me the chance to change my law or moral alignment. I am currently neutral/good. I can change to neutral/neutral or chaotic/good. I can also refrain from switching. To recap: glee is talking about actions changing your alignment. Because of my own actions, I know that actions specifically change your law or moral alignment. I’m thus talking about law and moral alignments in my response. You then question me: > [@septimus](#): > > Did you just disclose these facts here for the first time, or did I miss this upthread? There was mention earlier that you were _not_ offered the change. Did the opportunity come later? _I’m still talking about law or moral alignment_, and I’m not thinking about game alignment here. So I answer in kind: > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > I discuss it here: > And here: > > And here: > > And here: > Nobody, least of all me, suggested I was not offered a chance to switch alignments. I was wrong about one thing, though: it was Gadarene, not GuiriEnEspana, who mentioned also being offered a chance to switch. Each step of the way, we were talking about different things, it seems. At this point, I have no idea that you’re referring to the Gadarene PM addendum that I didn’t receive. I thought glee was talking about law and moral alignments. I was talking about law and moral alignments. And I thought you were asking me if this was the first time I brought up law or moral alignment shifts. You explain what you were talking about, and I respond with the equivalent of an “ah ha! I get it now!” post: > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > I have only ever been talking about law and moral alignment, not game alignment. You asked if I just disclosed “this fact,” and I pointed out I have always been talking about the same thing. The answer is no, I didn’t just disclose it. > > The confusion stems from you and I using “alignment” to mean different alignments. I agree, terminology could be clearer. And then, now that I get it, I answer the question you had actually asked: > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Now, to go one step further: Gadarene’s PM said that if he changed law or moral alignment, he could change game alignments as well. Mine did not. That’s why there’s a brief conversation between Gad and I talking past each other. > > He and I took it to PMs to hash out the discrepancy, and it appeared to us that he got roughly the same PM as me, but with an addendum about changing game alignments. I have no idea why my PM didn’t have such a section. I still can’t tell you why he got the addendum and I didn’t. I did seem to receive mine first - at the very least, I reported it first. Perhaps Tanaer’s hypothesis about Pizza getting more clear as the game progresses is correct. We’ve been talking past each other ever since. You cool with putting this behind us and moving on? ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2949 "2012-05-14T23:01:17Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Less a stretch than your assumption, “Phere is always deliberately anti-town.” To recap: All scum kills seem to be performed by Phere. If some of those kills were PFKs or third parties, they also seem to be performed by Phere. We have no evidence yet that Phere’s actions have been a representation of townie actions (excluding the lynch, obviously). All attacks seem to originate from whomever did the attacking. Phere is not involved when townies attack each other. Nor is he involved if scum are also hiding amongst the attackers. gnarlycharlie, however, is the first kill we’ve seen that is NOT attributed to Phere. This is a new data point. What if he’s town? Then there’s evidence supporting the fact that Phere is a representation of the forces arrayed against us. And, for better or worse, you were directly raised by Phere. Can you fault any of this reasoning? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2950 "2012-05-14T23:08:37Z")
> [@choie](#): > > Will do. **glee** and **Visorslash** are the offenders… OK, I’ll repeat my PM question here in the thread: Askthepizzaguy: Does attacking Lord Phere count as good or neutral or evil? To confirm what Astral Rejection said, I’m only talking about alignment changes through attacking e.g. Lawful Good. I have never considered the possibilty of changing from Town to Scum - and nor has Askthepizzaguy ever said anything to suggest we can. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2951 "2012-05-14T23:15:45Z")
> [@gnarlycharlie](#): > > … > > the reason **Gadarene** is dead is because i did kill him. i am no longer a watcher. i now have the ability to kill. so why did i kill him? it’s quite simple. he was attacking me. i would be dead if weren’t for someone healing me. continued attacks would kill me. while **Astral** also admitted to attacking me, he was more likely to be town than **Gadarene**. > > i was preserving myself and hoping he was scum also. if i weren’t being attacked i would have started taking out lurkers. > > if i were scum, wouldn’t taking out **Astral** or maybe **Lightfoot** a better choice? don’t tell me it’s one of those WIFOM about scum wouldn’t do that so they did it. > > i assume there will be a lot of comments and questions but i will likely be offline until the same time tomorrow (my time). Thanks for the information, but unfortunately it does still worry me. Couldn’t you have asked for Protection? (We know that all Soldiers can take damage for you.) Why was Gadarene (and Astral) attacking you? Killing someone at night sounds like Scum… ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2952 "2012-05-14T23:17:36Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Why was Gadarene (and Astral) attacking you? This is the second time I’ve seen this. I attacked Mosier, not gnarlycharlie. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2953 "2012-05-14T23:19:00Z")
Oops, hit submit before I was done. Full disclosure: I _considered_ attacking gnarlycharlie, but changed my mind. > [@glee](#): > > Killing someone at night sounds like Scum… Or town vigilante. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2954 "2012-05-14T23:26:13Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > This is the second time I’ve seen this. I attacked Mosier, not gnarlycharlie. I was just quoting gnarlycharlie: > [@gnarlycharlie](#): > > … while **Astral** also admitted to attacking me, he was more likely to be town than **Gadarene**. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2955 "2012-05-14T23:28:22Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Killing someone at night sounds like Scum… > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Or town vigilante. OK, but that would mean Town (Gadarene) attacking Town Vigilante (gnarlycharlie), who then kills the Townie instead of asking for protection. It’s a mess (or gnarlycharlie is Scum.) ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2956 "2012-05-14T23:33:42Z")
He’s also possibly third party of some flavor. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2957 "2012-05-14T23:50:44Z")
By the way, doesn’t the day end tomorrow? The voting record has been downright anemic toDay. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2958 "2012-05-15T00:12:53Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > To recap: > > All scum kills seem to be performed by Phere. If some of those kills were PFKs or third parties, they also seem to be performed by Phere. We have no evidence yet that Phere’s actions have been a representation of townie actions (excluding the lynch, obviously). Why exclude the lynch? Why would scum kill Weedy? Why would scum zombify me, a “good” adventurer? Seems lots of evidence Phere isn’t 100% scum tool. Maybe he’s randomized? All I know is my alignment and win condition are the same as a zombie as alive, to eliminate threats to town. > [@](#): > > All attacks seem to originate from whomever did the attacking. Phere is not involved when townies attack each other. Nor is he involved if scum are also hiding amongst the attackers. Maybe. Phere has killed either randomly, or as an agent of “not-scum” in the night. He has also killed good adventurers. He has also resurrected good adventurers. > [@](#): > > Can you fault any of this reasoning? Yes. You want to say Phere is definitely a scum tool, when it’s clear that’s not his only purpose. I know this personally, because I’m not scum and he resurrected me. The rest of the game knows this because Phere killed someone who flipped “very evil.” If very evil isn’t scum, we all have no idea how we’re doing in the game and might as well not be playing, because any of the other adventurers Phere killed who flipped “good” might have actually been scum. Either way, you can’t say conclusively that Phere = scum. Just so all the cards are out, I’m eating (attacking) Visorslash today. I’m also voting him, and as a Zombie Knight my vote counts for two. After him, I’m eating and voting Suburban Plankton. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2959 "2012-05-15T00:18:57Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Just so all the cards are out, I’m eating (attacking) Visorslash today. I’m also voting him, and as a Zombie Knight my vote counts for two. After him, I’m eating and voting Suburban Plankton. For a zombie you sure sound like regular people to me. What happened to the “me want braaaaains” speech pattern? ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2012, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/2960 "2012-05-15T00:26:34Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Why exclude the lynch? Why would scum kill Weedy? Why would scum zombify me, a “good” adventurer? Seems lots of evidence Phere isn’t 100% scum tool. Maybe he’s randomized? All I know is my alignment and win condition are the same as a zombie as alive, to eliminate threats to town. Scum would kill Weedy if she wasn’t part of their team, and instead a PFK. Assuming scum zombified you, good adventurers were their only choice. There’s one new piece of evidence that Phere COULD BE 100% a scum tool, as gnarlycharlie’s action (a night kill) was not presented as coming from Phere. Why do you think he would be random? You knowing your win condition is not the same as me knowing your win condition. > [@](#): > > Maybe. Phere has killed either randomly, or as an agent of “not-scum” in the night. He has also killed good adventurers. He has also resurrected good adventurers. This is not a mafia game if Phere is random. There is no way to understand and solve the game if Phere is killing randomly. Players have to be directing the night kills. Yes, he has killed good adventurers. However, he hasn’t resurrected good player"s". Someone else resurrected Guiri and I, further evidence that your resurrection is different. > [@](#): > > Yes. You want to say Phere is definitely a scum tool, when it’s clear that’s not his only purpose. I know this personally, because I’m not scum and he resurrected me. The rest of the game knows this because Phere killed someone who flipped “very evil.” If very evil isn’t scum, we all have no idea how we’re doing in the game and might as well not be playing, because any of the other adventurers Phere killed who flipped “good” might have actually been scum. Either way, you can’t say conclusively that Phere = scum. It’s my hypothesis. I could be wrong. Weedy could be PFK; there wasn’t another kill that night, which would possibly indicate scum killed her. Nobody else has taken credit for it, which would be pretty serious town cred. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480.md?page=147) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480.md?page=149)