# \[Mafia game\] The Realm of Phere **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 1, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480 "2012-04-01T15:04:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 198
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/3942 "2012-06-08T13:37:17Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > What frustrates me in this game was that the voting record was useless for solving the game. I’ve never played in a game like that, so I kept coming back to the record every reveal, hoping to “solve” the game. > > What seriously hurt me is that I kept looking for a scum team. Surely some of those evil people had to be a team if this was a Mafia game, right? That’s why I didn’t pay enough attention to what the evil people said. Some of them had to be the scum team, and scum lie. > > What helped Choie was that the attacks seemed largely random to me. I couldn’t get a grip on why people were dying or surviving when they did, so Choie didn’t particularly stand out. I was exceedingly unlikely to be lynched after my resurrection; same for Guiri and Gad. And since WE weren’t dying, it didn’t seem as weird that Choie was alive. I was guessing the scum team was shooting randomly, trying to hit the reviver, and they just couldn’t find him or her. That explained our survival, and Choie’s. If I had ever TRULY realized there wasn’t a scum team, I mighta come back to Choie as a suspect. Ultimately, I was just plain outplayed. Told you something was wrong with the deaths, Astral. 🙂 But never mind, I don’t know if I could have brought myself to lynch her, either – she faked me out so well with that ridiculous attack on me early on, and it’s hard to kill someone just because they shouldn’t still be alive. GG choie. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/3943 "2012-06-08T13:43:20Z")
Normal, you were right. I didn’t even forget what you said… I put a lot of thought into **why** people were dying, why Weedy was chosen for the trick reveal, and so on. I even came close to suspecting Choie. I just posted my suspicions in a PM that included her in the recipients. :smack: Her over-the-top reaction seemed genuine, so I discarded those suspicions. ---
**Author:** ![Scathach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Scathach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scathach)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/3944 "2012-06-08T13:48:26Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > I even came close to suspecting Choie. I just posted my suspicions in a PM that included her in the recipients. :smack: Her over-the-top reaction seemed genuine, so I discarded those suspicions. This is part of why I didn’t like the PM’ing thing - no one except the recipients of that PM got to see those suspicions or choie’s reactions. It’s purposely depriving town of information and creating a self-reinforcing “trusted list” where you trust people simply because you’re communicating with them more. (not you personally I mean, just taking your post as an example). ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/3945 "2012-06-08T14:17:04Z")
I agree. My games will never allow PMs. However, since they were included, I wanted to try them out and see if I was wrong. They definitely seemed somewhat anti-town, and my opinion of them was reinforced as the game went on. Question for the group: our game seemed abnormally personal and vindictive this time around. Why was that? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/3946 "2012-06-08T14:29:38Z")
> [@Visorslash](#): > > Just curious, but that’s a somewhat weird stance to take. You’re stopping yourself from playing (generally) interesting and complex games, and for what? Absurdly frustrating pace that kills all momentum and makes it feel like a slog rather than a game. No respect for the players at all. Game design that I, personally, am not at all a fan of. Outright deception as to the nature of the game (regardless of anything else, this is still a game of Mafia and can be won and played as such blah blah blah – utter nonsense). Thanks, I think I’ll be better off avoiding these “interesting and complex games” and sticking to my own kind, who care about little things like not having a three-day real-life gap between Day and Night on multiple occasions. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/3947 "2012-06-08T14:31:48Z")
Also, Visorslash, I have played at least a hundred games of Mafia/werewolf over the last year. Two of those were run by Pizza. The two that were run by Pizza were far and AWAY the most frustrating, least pleasurable, least fun, awful experiences that I’ve had. BY FAR. I’m identifying the common denominator. Pizza’s games aren’t for me. ---
**Author:** ![Visorslash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ee59a6/32.png) [@Visorslash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Visorslash)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/3948 "2012-06-08T14:32:34Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > Absurdly frustrating pace that kills all momentum and makes it feel like a slog rather than a game. > > No respect for the players at all. > > Game design that I, personally, am not at all a fan of. Outright deception as to the nature of the game (regardless of anything else, this is still a game of Mafia and can be won and played as such blah blah blah – utter nonsense). > > Thanks, I think I’ll be better off avoiding these “interesting and complex games” and sticking to my own kind, who care about little things like not having a three-day real-life gap between Day and Night on multiple occasions. The question I’m asking is why you are not going to join any future games. I understand your feelings on this game. > [@](#): > > Also, Visorslash, I have played at least a hundred games of Mafia/werewolf over the last year. Two of those were run by Pizza. > > The two that were run by Pizza were far and AWAY the most frustrating, least pleasurable, least fun, awful experiences that I’ve had. BY FAR. > > I’m identifying the common denominator. Pizza’s games aren’t for me. Alright. Just curious is all. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/3949 "2012-06-08T14:40:09Z")
Much congratulations to **Choie**!! 🙂 Well played! But … you joked that you’d not trust me anymore. Do you think I’ll ever trust you again? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/3950 "2012-06-08T14:57:47Z")
I do want to point out, even if Choie was all by herself, I still think the WISH ability was ridiculously overpowered. Being able to discuss her wish with the moderator ahead of time just added to its power. There were no game mechanics to allow town to “solve” her wishes. ---
**Author:** ![Scathach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Scathach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scathach)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/3951 "2012-06-08T14:58:41Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > I agree. My games will never allow PMs. However, since they were included, I wanted to try them out and see if I was wrong. They definitely seemed somewhat anti-town, and my opinion of them was reinforced as the game went on. > > Question for the group: our game seemed abnormally personal and vindictive this time around. Why was that? Maybe with only one truly evil person, (in game! in game! we love you really choie ;)) there wasn’t the positive feedback of lynching some scum. Growing frustration with the lack of success could definitely explain some of it I think. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/3952 "2012-06-08T15:03:26Z")
More on my issue with WISH: Choie was untrackable, so we couldn’t see her “cast” the wish. It could be anything, like PetW’s no-reveal, Weedy’s false reveal, an extra death one night, and Mosier’s zombie resurrection. I’m sure there were others I didn’t see. Town had no mechanic to solve what happened with any of that. And that’s very, very frustrating. This game, on paper, was town vs. Choie. But town never had a way to discern that. Town never had a way to realize that none of the “evil” people were part of a team. And the various wishes, since they were unsolvable, hinted at a bigger array of enemies, with town completely unable to figure out their source. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/3953 "2012-06-08T15:18:53Z")
Astral’s concerns are spot on. That is absolutely absurd and game-breaking. ---
**Author:** ![Scathach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Scathach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scathach)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/3954 "2012-06-08T15:22:23Z")
Eh, I’m ok with a lot of the weird stuff. I signed up for the game expecting it to be crazy and I wasn’t disappointed. I would consider it analogous to the recent Arkham game on Idlemafia where the 3rd Party could leave random “bombs” on people with triggers/colour effects chosen by the bomber. The bomber could also do things like have people get a PM during the night that their pee had turned blue 🙂 Completely unpredictable but just a sort of fun red herring. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/3955 "2012-06-08T15:26:14Z")
Fair enough, Scathach. It’s not _quite_ the same as our situation here, but either way that sounds like something that would frustrate me. Just not my cup of tea, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Visorslash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ee59a6/32.png) [@Visorslash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Visorslash)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/3956 "2012-06-08T15:28:49Z")
The dropouts sucked, and the double nightkills suck, I will admit. Maybe you could’ve dumbed the writeups/role PM’s down to bare basics, or lessened the extra text to keep you sane? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/3957 "2012-06-08T15:30:04Z")
> [@Scathach](#): > > Eh, I’m ok with a lot of the weird stuff. I signed up for the game expecting it to be crazy and I wasn’t disappointed. > > I would consider it analogous to the recent Arkham game on Idlemafia where the 3rd Party could leave random “bombs” on people with triggers/colour effects chosen by the bomber. The bomber could also do things like have people get a PM during the night that their pee had turned blue 🙂 Completely unpredictable but just a sort of fun red herring. There’s a difference between “fun red herrings” and things that have actual, substantive effects on the game, like changing people’s reveals, resurrecting extra people, and causing extra deaths that couldn’t be solved at all. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/3958 "2012-06-08T15:30:18Z")
Kinda figured Gadarene would be whiny at the end. As for lack of respect for players, I have to hand it to you Gad, you’re never shy about disrespecting the moderator or your fellow players, or taking offense to the same sort of disrespect you dish out at people. The feeling is more than mutual there, buddy. ---
**Author:** ![Visorslash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ee59a6/32.png) [@Visorslash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Visorslash)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/3959 "2012-06-08T15:32:10Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > There’s a difference between “fun red herrings” and things that have actual, substantive effects on the game, like changing people’s reveals, resurrecting extra people, and causing extra deaths that couldn’t be solved at all. At the end of the day, would you rather a fun game or a balanced game? I understand you didn’t find this all that fun, but I assume a fair few of us did. I enjoyed this, it was a nice change. Balance issues obviously, but in the end I had fun, would play again. ---
**Author:** ![Scathach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Scathach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scathach)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/3960 "2012-06-08T15:33:29Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Fair enough, Scathach. It’s not _quite_ the same as our situation here, but either way that sounds like something that would frustrate me. Just not my cup of tea, I suppose. Yep, the obvious difference is that in Arkham they really were red herrings, they didn’t have any effect. I do think as a mechanic it was slightly broken here, but I was expecting a lot of weird stuff to be happening anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/3961 "2012-06-08T15:37:38Z")
Well, I was correct about one thing: I suspected there was no “Scum Team”. Unfortunately, I think that was my greatest contribution to the game… The only problem I had personally with this game was the pacing, which I think all will agree was a bit slow. But that wasn’t such a big problem for me; it was just an adjustment that I needed to make. As I pointed out during the game, we did overwhelmingly request a “Mad Scientist” game, and that’s what we got. Maybe the statement of “it’s just a Mafia game” was misleading, maybe Pizza was a bit over-ambitious, maybe the game turned out to be too complicated to effectively moderate; these are all risks that I think we (as a group, but not necessarily individually) accepted when we asked for a “wild and crazy” game. It wasn’t the most successful Mafia game I’ve played in, but it certainly wasn’t the least successful either. I quite enjoyed it. I’m a big fan of ‘unusual’ setups and mechanics in Mafia. I get as big a kick out of ‘figuring out the game’ as I do ‘finding the bad guys’…and this game was definitely a success to that end. I’d play in a sequel to this game, as long as there were a few (and just a few) tweaks. Mainly, I think there was a need for a co-moderator to help keep the game moving. secondly, it’s clear in hindsight that there needed to be better disclosure about the ‘non-standard’ nature of the game. Note I say “in hindsight” because I personally have no issue with the way the game was promoted; I got pretty much exactly what I was expecting, but it’s clear that not everyone feels the same way I do. Thanks for an entertaining game, **Pizza**! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480.md?page=197) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480.md?page=199)