# \[Mafia game\] The Realm of Phere **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 1, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480 "2012-04-01T15:04:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 61
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1201 "2012-04-15T07:17:04Z")
I explained why I find his deals unseemly. It’s not just the PMming stuff. I know (but hate) that PMs are part of the game mechanism. But it isn’t that, it’s that he’s simultaneously appraising these items and offering money to buy them, with prices based on his own estimation. His customers have no idea whether what he says is true. Or do they? I haven’t heard anything from these sellers. We have no idea what these things do. I can think of a few reasons why we shouldn’t give up our pretties (those of us/you who have 'em) to some shyster in a checked suit with “Professor Harold Hill” on his suitcase. What if they’re, I dunno, horcruxes? (Well, not _really_ horcruxes, but you know what I mean.) What if **fubbles** has to gather them all in order to complete his hold on Lord Phere? Or maybe he’s collecting them _for_ Lord Phere. Who the heck knows? Not me. And that worries me. Real-life example of why I don’t trust this sort of behavior: I recently wrote elsewhere on the SDMB about how when I was 21, I had a book appraised by a book dealer as being worth about $1,000. She offered me that figure, and because I was young and trusting, I accepted it. Not much later I read in the New Yorker about an identical edition of this rare book (a copy of _Ulysses_ signed by James Joyce and illustrated by Henri Matisse) auctioned at $8K. I even saw another edition (there were only 200 printed) on the _Antiques Roadshow_ that was appraised at $12K. Result: a sadder but wiser **choie** , who learned: _don’t sell things to the same person who’s appraising your item._ Since I’m not getting a strong scum reading on anyone, I’m looking for the person who a) seems at least _partly_ scummy and b) will do the least damage to town if he’s lynched. Someone who to _me_ seems third party, and not quite kosher in his business dealings (he should’ve announced his offers in public first and _then_ gone the PM route, IMHO), and who seems to have the whip hand over us because it appears he’s the only one who can evaluate these items (I may be wrong about that but I haven’t heard anyone else explaining what they do)… well, yeah, maybe that’s a “safe” lynch but I’d rather be safe than destructive. We’ve got some ridiculously over-powered scum players (or player, but that seems weird even for **pizzaguy** ) who can totally override us. I don’t want to lose any more townspeople than necessary, though sadly it seems we’re guaranteed at least one or two a night/day cycle. So let’s say **fubbles** is third party but harmless to Town. Well, frankly, if I have to choose between lynching a harmless third party and someone I think might be an innocent Townsperson, well, that’s an easy choice. No offense to **fubbles** , but his death would be less destructive to Town. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Jan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Silver\_Jan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Jan)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1202 "2012-04-15T07:33:01Z")
Another vote on\*\* Gad\*\* with no good reason! I am going to **Vote Astral Rejection** Apart from his D1 shenanigans the triple vote/unvotes on him really makes him look scummy to me. I think that when the triple voter skipped over\*\* Astral\*\* yesterday and targeted\*\* Mosier\*\* instead, that made me think he could be scum. The triple vote/unvote just seems to confirm it. ---
**Author:** ![Visorslash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ee59a6/32.png) [@Visorslash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Visorslash)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1203 "2012-04-15T08:17:40Z")
We need a clear lynch. **Unvote; Vote: Astral Rejection** ---
**Author:** ![gnarlycharlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@gnarlycharlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarlycharlie)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1204 "2012-04-15T08:31:30Z")
> [@choie](#): > > I explained why I find his deals unseemly. It’s not just the PMming stuff. I know (but hate) that PMs are part of the game mechanism. But it isn’t that, it’s that he’s simultaneously appraising these items and offering money to buy them, with prices based on his own estimation. His customers have no idea whether what he says is true. Or do they? I haven’t heard anything from these sellers. > > We have no idea what these things do. I can think of a few reasons why we shouldn’t give up our pretties (those of us/you who have 'em) to some shyster in a checked suit with “Professor Harold Hill” on his suitcase. What if they’re, I dunno, horcruxes? (Well, not _really_ horcruxes, but you know what I mean.) What if **fubbles** has to gather them all in order to complete his hold on Lord Phere? Or maybe he’s collecting them _for_ Lord Phere. Who the heck knows? Not me. And that worries me. > > Real-life example of why I don’t trust this sort of behavior: I recently wrote elsewhere on the SDMB about how when I was 21, I had a book appraised by a book dealer as being worth about $1,000. She offered me that figure, and because I was young and trusting, I accepted it. Not much later I read in the New Yorker about an identical edition of this rare book (a copy of _Ulysses_ signed by James Joyce and illustrated by Henri Matisse) auctioned at $8K. I even saw another edition (there were only 200 printed) on the _Antiques Roadshow_ that was appraised at $12K. Result: a sadder but wiser **choie** , who learned: _don’t sell things to the same person who’s appraising your item._ > > Since I’m not getting a strong scum reading on anyone, I’m looking for the person who a) seems at least _partly_ scummy and b) will do the least damage to town if he’s lynched. Someone who to _me_ seems third party, and not quite kosher in his business dealings (he should’ve announced his offers in public first and _then_ gone the PM route, IMHO), and who seems to have the whip hand over us because it appears he’s the only one who can evaluate these items (I may be wrong about that but I haven’t heard anyone else explaining what they do)… well, yeah, maybe that’s a “safe” lynch but I’d rather be safe than destructive. > > We’ve got some ridiculously over-powered scum players (or player, but that seems weird even for **pizzaguy** ) who can totally override us. I don’t want to lose any more townspeople than necessary, though sadly it seems we’re guaranteed at least one or two a night/day cycle. > > So let’s say **fubbles** is third party but harmless to Town. Well, frankly, if I have to choose between lynching a harmless third party and someone I think might be an innocent Townsperson, well, that’s an easy choice. No offense to **fubbles** , but his death would be less destructive to Town. sorry to hear you were gypped. obviously your experience has colored your view of the game. i don’t think **fubbles** will be lynched any time soon. several players are interested in the identification of their items so they won’t be voting for him. at best your vote is just a statement and arguably a waste. so since your voting him, you find the rest of us are town then? ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1205 "2012-04-15T10:14:42Z")
> [@Visorslash](#): > > No, I’m saying that Gadarene lied to get Fubbles lynched as the wealth win condition is **not** third party. So you have additional information – that’s what I was asking. Actually the way you describe it, the wealth condition IS third party by local definition, in that such a player can win with town but does not have to. It’s a town-friendly win condition but not town per se. (Unless you’re saying it does say Alignment: town in there somewhere? Though that doesn’t seem to fit. But at any rate, unless you’re explicitly saying that it does, then Gadarene/Gadarene’s informant are not lying.) ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1206 "2012-04-15T10:17:40Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > He’s been back since. I have to admit that Suburban has completely failed to ping me thus far, but that is quite strange and I would like to see an explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Visorslash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ee59a6/32.png) [@Visorslash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Visorslash)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1207 "2012-04-15T10:24:49Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > So you have additional information – that’s what I was asking. > > Actually the way you describe it, the wealth condition IS third party by local definition, in that such a player can win with town but does not have to. It’s a town-friendly win condition but not town per se. (Unless you’re saying it does say Alignment: town in there somewhere? Though that doesn’t seem to fit. But at any rate, unless you’re explicitly saying that it does, then Gadarene/Gadarene’s informant are not lying.) You can win one of two ways. It’s MUCH easier to win with town. But a backup plan always helps. But hd’s pushing it as a complete third party when it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Visorslash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ee59a6/32.png) [@Visorslash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Visorslash)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1208 "2012-04-15T10:25:59Z")
But you have to survive as well as town. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1209 "2012-04-15T10:32:47Z")
> [@choie](#): > > I explained why I find his deals unseemly. It’s not just the PMming stuff. I know (but hate) that PMs are part of the game mechanism. But it isn’t that, it’s that he’s simultaneously appraising these items and offering money to buy them, with prices based on his own estimation. His customers have no idea whether what he says is true. Or do they? I haven’t heard anything from these sellers. > > We have no idea what these things do. I can think of a few reasons why we shouldn’t give up our pretties (those of us/you who have 'em) to some shyster in a checked suit with “Professor Harold Hill” on his suitcase. What if they’re, I dunno, horcruxes? (Well, not _really_ horcruxes, but you know what I mean.) What if **fubbles** has to gather them all in order to complete his hold on Lord Phere? Or maybe he’s collecting them _for_ Lord Phere. Who the heck knows? Not me. And that worries me. You’re being way too paranoid. (I’ve HAD a role akin to the one you attribute to fubbles in a previous Pizza game, and I’m still talking to him. He’s not going to win in a single day or even three or four with whatever vague not-town win condition you might think he has.) Just plain “would be willing to sell info to the scum in exchange for non-aggression” would be plenty reason for caution if you’re inclined that way, so why so much wild speculation? And you are just wrong with your reasoning about the fubbles non-bandwagon. It is going nowhere. If a suspected third party that basically no one actually thinks is scum were going to get real support for a lynching, it would have happened by now. It’s been almost a full night and a full day that fubbles has been a topic of discussion. It’s not going to happen. I’m not remotely as suspicious of you as some others are as I’ve seen this sort of bullheadedness from you before as town, but I still think you’re wrong. And I’d like you to consider the other bandwagons now and and least evaluate them for the record: MHaye, Gadarene, Astral, Weedy, etc. > [@](#): > > Since I’m not getting a strong scum reading on anyone, I’m looking for the person who a) seems at least _partly_ scummy and b) will do the least damage to town if he’s lynched. Come on, choie, this is just silly. By the numbers alone someone in the non-fubbles lynch “leader” group is likely to be scum. Sit down and put yourself on the record as to who it is. > [@](#): > > We’ve got some ridiculously over-powered scum players (or player, but that seems weird even for **pizzaguy** ) who can totally override us. I don’t want to lose any more townspeople than necessary, though sadly it seems we’re guaranteed at least one or two a night/day cycle. Argh. OK, now THAT last sentence did feel scummy. > [@](#): > > So let’s say **fubbles** is third party but harmless to Town. Well, frankly, if I have to choose between lynching a harmless third party and someone I think might be an innocent Townsperson, well, that’s an easy choice. No offense to **fubbles** , but his death would be less destructive to Town. Where in ALL this calculation is the idea of lynching someone WHO MIGHT BE SCUM? It’s completely absent. If you’re town, do you think you might want to consider that just a bit? How on earth else do you think we’re ever going to remove the scum, if not by trying to lynch them? Seriously, choie. This reasoning here is not right. Not even close. I REALLY want to hear your thoughts on the other lynch options at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1210 "2012-04-15T10:37:13Z")
> [@Visorslash](#): > > But you have to survive as well as town. Right. And this is all the more reason I would very much like such players to identify themselves. Because “I don’t really want to hunt scum, because I have to live” and “I don’t really want to hunt scum, because I am one” do sort of look alike to the uninformed eye. And the longer such a player goes without putting down “I am thir party” for the record the more chance there is he or she will be seen as lying scum when they do do so. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1211 "2012-04-15T10:42:51Z")
Good, more votes on Astral lets me \*\*unvote \*\*vote: PetW To keep him on the board. I’ll be around near end of day to move back or to MHaye if needed, I just need to see decision making from those who are or were at “none of the above”. ---
**Author:** ![Visorslash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ee59a6/32.png) [@Visorslash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Visorslash)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1212 "2012-04-15T11:37:57Z")
Screwed up bolding Phase Shift. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1213 "2012-04-15T11:51:19Z")
What else is new. **unvote vote: PetW** ---
**Author:** ![Visorslash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ee59a6/32.png) [@Visorslash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Visorslash)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1214 "2012-04-15T12:04:10Z")
Why are you voting PetW now? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1215 "2012-04-15T12:11:28Z")
LOL that you didn’t ask me that question the first time. 🙂 Same reason I voted him the first time, plus it’s just plain weird how the votes on him evaporated. Makes me paranoid. Breaking people’s spreadsheets is also a plus. ---
**Author:** ![Visorslash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ee59a6/32.png) [@Visorslash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Visorslash)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1216 "2012-04-15T12:16:39Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > LOL that you didn’t ask me that question the first time. 🙂 > > Same reason I voted him the first time, plus it’s just plain weird how the votes on him evaporated. Makes me paranoid. > > Breaking people’s spreadsheets is also a plus. Hey, over here, votes disappear and reappear like magic. Not like the Org. Also, go join Pizzaguys game on the Org. 🙂 Your last sentence: :):):):):)🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BobArrgh](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobarrgh/32/2881_2.png) [@BobArrgh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobArrgh)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1217 "2012-04-15T12:34:14Z")
> [@gnarlycharlie](#): > > it makes me think there might be an unusually small number of scum, even one. this is some overpowered voting. I’ve thought this for a while, although I think there might be 3 Scum, who may or may not be required to vote for the same person. > [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > **Unvote: Astral Rejection > Unvote: Astral Rejection > Unvote: Astral Rejection** And, this is exactly what I was expecting to happen. ---
**Author:** ![GuiriEnEspana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc79bd/32.png) [@GuiriEnEspana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuiriEnEspana)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1218 "2012-04-15T13:24:31Z")
> [@BobArrgh](#): > > And, this is exactly what I was expecting to happen. What do you think it means, if anything? I was the recipient of the triple votes for a short period and then they were switched to Astral. I’m probably playing into the hands of whoever manipulated the votes yesterDay but I still support an Astral lynch. I was pinged by his initial post. I thought he’d reacted well to the two votes until his second round of questioning to Gadarene and me - comparing his post to Glee’s. His vote on choie seemed like a misread of her post while making a determined effort to avoid omgusing or becoming over defensive. His vote on MHaye was fine, although I had a different take on MHaye’s playstyle. His vote switch may well have been well intended but it would have deprived Town of useful information. I also disliked his claim to protect choie, who he assumes is town, or others from outing themselves - his conviction that all vanilla know what’s going on read off. His promised WoW amounted to a vote analysis, which hasn’t resulted in anything, and self defense. It feels like he’s taking major steps to look pro-town without considering the implications and it feels forced. His explanation for attacking Bob - attacking someone he has no read on to see their reaction rather than attacking someone he suspects, protecting someone who may need it, or sitting on his weapon? And then he went quiet. **Vote Astral** I support a lynch of Scathach, ToeJam, or PetW too. I’d appreciate some response to the WoWs. I was starting to lean town on choie but dislike her lack of scum suspects and “next best thing” vote on Fubbles. Funnily enough I’m not terribly enamored with Gadarene either, maybe it was the fishing about my damage, the argument that he was saved by a townie, the 7 point defense post, the relayed suggestion to attack the demon, the relayed accusations about Fubbles (although he never voted him). I too look forward to seeing what Suburban has to say. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1219 "2012-04-15T14:16:36Z")
**Vote Astral Rejection** Mostly from my POV, to follow the wagon, but he seems like a decent lynch to me. There’s been a few strange things about him - the triple voter skipped him to lynch Mosier, and his vote for Gad at :56. It’s weird that he anticipated vote changing power there. I thought he might be double voter himself, but he claimed vanilla. I’m going to bed now, probably won’t be back before EoD. ---
**Author:** ![Tanaer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tanaer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanaer)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1220 "2012-04-15T15:34:35Z")
> [@Visorslash](#): > > There would probably be more then one. Maybe a few groups of scum, possibly a serial killer and a mafia, who knows. We certainly can’t tell at the moment. [verse off for the moment.. the lurgy’s lurking in my brain cells ☹] I believe there is a decent chance that (at least) one of the neighbouring countries has sent one or more folk to, say, deal with non-vanilla roles so that they can take over when it’s all said and done. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480.md?page=60) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480.md?page=62)