# \[Mafia game\] The Realm of Phere **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 1, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480 "2012-04-01T15:04:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 90
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1781 "2012-04-23T14:26:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Upon inspection of his remains, they noticed that Astral Rejection seemed to be dressed like an ordinary Archer, and there was nothing sinister about him. Reluctantly, they were forced to conclude that a Good Adventurer was slain. > > The items from the previous day were distributed to their new owners. For reference. ---
**Author:** ![Believerer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/53a042/32.png) [@Believerer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Believerer)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1782 "2012-04-23T14:34:16Z")
\*\*Pendant: Believerer \*\* Only one vote for the lynch so far? Are people scared to be called out? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1783 "2012-04-23T14:35:35Z")
**Vote: Believerer** Does that help? šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1784 "2012-04-23T14:47:50Z")
> [@Believerer](#): > > \*\*Pendant: Believerer > \*\* > > Only one vote for the lynch so far? Are people scared to be called out? The day is like three hours old. I like early votes as much as the next guy, but donā€™t you think itā€™s a little premature to be calling out others for not voting? ---
**Author:** ![Visorslash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ee59a6/32.png) [@Visorslash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Visorslash)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1785 "2012-04-23T15:02:00Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > No reveal games make me sad and frustrated. The fundamental nature of Mafia is that there is an initial informational asymmetry in favor of scum, and an initial numerical asymmetry in favor of town, but that as players die and their information is revealed, both asymmetries progressively equalize. In other words, Town gets screwed if it doesnā€™t know more than it started with a few Days down the line. > > Can those of you who have successfully and unfrustratingly played with no-reveal games in the past please tell me the optimal Town strategy, beyond shooting blindly at suspicious people? Basically, choose who you think is scum, then suggest a case, then try to lynch them. Itā€™s easier in a vanilla setting, but still, it isnā€™t impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Visorslash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ee59a6/32.png) [@Visorslash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Visorslash)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1786 "2012-04-23T15:04:23Z")
Evil, Good and Neutral are all alignments that can be changed. So we may have a scum that is Lawful Good for example. Read nothing into the alignments, because they canā€™t mean anything. I bet we will know when we have lynched this ā€œtraitorā€ though. Tentative: **Vote: Choie** May change later on depending on how the day goes, but for now, time to sleep. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1787 "2012-04-23T15:13:10Z")
> [@Believerer](#): > > \*\*Pendant: Believerer > \*\* > > Only one vote for the lynch so far? Are people scared to be called out? Your first daytime post, and thatā€™s all you have to say? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1788 "2012-04-23T15:23:49Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > ā€¦ well that kinda sucks. You guys donā€™t actually know if Iā€™m town, then. Or if anybody weā€™ve killed is town. > > I assume thereā€™s one or more power roles out there, figuring this stuff out. Hopefully theyā€™re breadcrumbing in case they die. > [@Scathach](#): > > Humph. This has become essentially a no-reveal game then ā˜¹ Pizza has mentioned in the past how he likes to make the Town ā€˜figure things outā€™ by player analysis, rather than ā€˜have answers handed to themā€™ by Power Roles, so itā€™s not surprising this is a ā€˜no-revealā€™ game. It fits his style. As far as Moral Alignment =/= Game Alignment: I can wrap my head around the idea of ā€˜Chaoticā€™ Townies of ā€˜Lawfulā€™ Scum, but I just canā€™t see how we could have ā€˜Evilā€™ Townies or ā€˜Goodā€™ Scum. Which brings me back to the point I raised earlier, which is that I donā€™t think weā€™re looking at a traditional ā€˜Town vs. Scum (with maybe a 3rd party or two thrown in for flavor)ā€™ game. I think weā€™re looking at a multi-faction game with several different ā€˜Town-likeā€™ groups, and a very small number of ā€˜Scum-likeā€™ players. Since it appears that all the people of the land have come together to fight the Demon Lord, it could be that everyone, with the exception of the Traitor, is ā€˜Goodā€™; after all, theyā€™re trying to save the land from Evil. So Iā€™m not putting much stock in anyoneā€™s Moral Alignment until somebody turns up ā€˜Evilā€™ or ā€˜Neutralā€™. ---
**Author:** ![Scathach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Scathach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scathach)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1789 "2012-04-23T15:31:55Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > but I just canā€™t see how we could have ā€˜Evilā€™ Townies or ā€˜Goodā€™ Scum. > [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > **Alignment Shift:** > > During the day or night, you may perform an action which affects the karma of your character. Good or lawful actions may shift you in that direction, unlawful or violent actions may shift you in the other direction. Note that townies can turn **Good** , **Neutral** , or **Evil** , and that **Lawful** , **Neutral** , and \*\*Chaotic \*\*aligned characters can all be townies. It seems like itā€™s explicitly stated that we can. Although, a thought strikes me, it does say townies can TURN good, neutral or evil, but that lawful,neutral,chaotic can all BE townies. (ah my tinfoil hat - I never feel like Iā€™m playing mafia without it) ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1790 "2012-04-23T15:31:57Z")
One small snippet from \*\*choieā€™s \*\*recent ā€˜Wall of Wordsā€™ post: > [@choie](#): > > Iā€™m trying to do what **Normal** and others have been pressuring me to do, even though **Normal** herself isnā€™t doing it, because they are more experienced and yā€™know, maybe Iā€™m wrong. Leaves a bitter taste in my mouth but I do as the majority of the posters want me to do. Why are you doing what \*\*Normal \*\*(and others) tell you? Unless they are confirmed Town, thatā€™s not a terribly wise choice. And if you donā€™t take full responsibility for your own votes, then weā€™re going to have no choice but to lynch you, because any Town player who allows themselves to be manipulated into voting against their better judgement is basically just a tool for Scum, which we cannot afford. Now, itā€™s entirely possible that if you vote your conscience and staunchly defend your votes, we might not like them and still lynch you anyway, but at least at that point we can gain something from your death. If you just meekly ā€˜do as youā€™re toldā€™, then you provide us absolutely no information. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1791 "2012-04-23T15:34:20Z")
> [@MHaye](#): > > We now know who the double-voters are, so we can take into account the effects of their powers when calculating how close a vote race is, so that isnā€™t so much of a problem. Do we know who both of the Double Voters are? I know **Normal Phase** has admitted to being one of them, but I thought that we still had two possible candidates for the second (\*\*ToeJam \*\*and **Visorslash** , IIRC). Did one of them admit to being the second? ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1792 "2012-04-23T15:36:24Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > I never did, on the off chance scum donā€™t have access to it. They _likely_ do, but I didnā€™t see a pressing need when I claimed. > > Iā€™d like to see your character details in particular, Normal. If you feel like it, could you PM me your capabilities and class info? Iā€™m considering just doing it publicly, given I have a couple of guaranteed votes on me anyway and given how much Iā€™ve already revealed. I may as well be explicit: the reason that I want to know what a soldier can change to is because I want to know whether or not I would be making the double-voter power easily accessible in the process; and if so, whether or not I should reveal the name of my character class. What my class can actually do, I donā€™t consider particularly sensitive. Send me a PM as to where you stand on all of that, if you would. (And was I right that you tried to perforate me?) Re: my previous post ā€“ correction on my Mosier assessment that I only realized after I was out the door: he would not have been ā€˜bornā€™ scum absent Pizza being total bastard, since it was Lord Phereā€™s votes that lynched him in the first place. That leaves two possibilities IMO ā€“ sheer chaos and some sort of death-mediated alignment change. Regarding no-reveal games, all I can really say, having played a bunch of them, is just to fight getting demoralized. Every day is day one in terms of mod-provided information, is all. You just keep fighting to lynch the scummiest people until you win or you die. Thereā€™s nothing else to do, but if you donā€™t do it, you will lose (speaking as town). Scumhunting is not really any different than usual except for the inability to ever be certain about anything and vote records being less useful than otherwise. Iā€™m still not certain this is a wholly no-reveal game; or that this plethora of good alignments implies nothing about those who are otherwise; but I canā€™t think of any way to tell. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1793 "2012-04-23T15:38:24Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > Do we know who both of the Double Voters are? I know **Normal Phase** has admitted to being one of them, but I thought that we still had two possible candidates for the second (\*\*ToeJam \*\*and **Visorslash** , IIRC). Did one of them admit to being the second? Itā€™s Visor, though I donā€™t know if the confusion about his item votes was ever nailed down. \*\*Pizza? _points to comment_ \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1794 "2012-04-23T15:39:20Z")
> [@Scathach](#): > > It seems like itā€™s explicitly stated that we can. > > Although, a thought strikes me, it does say townies can TURN good, neutral or evil, but that lawful,neutral,chaotic can all BE townies. > > (ah my tinfoil hat - I never feel like Iā€™m playing mafia without it) I also notice that it doesnā€™t say \*anything \*about the possible Alignments for Scum. Might you have a bit of tinfoil you can spare? šŸ†’ ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1795 "2012-04-23T15:42:45Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Itā€™s Visor, though I donā€™t know if the confusion about his item votes was ever nailed down. > > \*\*Pizza? _points to comment_ \*\* Youā€™re assuming this because of the multiple item-votes for **Visor**? If thatā€™s the only reason, then Iā€™ll pencil him in as the second Double-Voter, but Iā€™m not putting it in ink until thereā€™s some solid evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1796 "2012-04-23T15:43:06Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > ā€¦ well that kinda sucks. You guys donā€™t actually know if Iā€™m town, then. Or if anybody weā€™ve killed is town. > > I assume thereā€™s one or more power roles out there, figuring this stuff out. Hopefully theyā€™re breadcrumbing in case they die. Please stop pinging me. Itā€™s not good for my sanity. There was one request of mine from yesterday that you never responded to, that Iā€™d really like to see you do now that youā€™re around again. Namely, look at who among your defenders and the people who were wishy-washy about you looks suspicious. Danke. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1797 "2012-04-23T15:44:08Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > Youā€™re assuming this because of the multiple item-votes for **Visor**? > > If thatā€™s the only reason, then Iā€™ll pencil him in as the second Double-Voter, but Iā€™m not putting it in ink until thereā€™s some solid evidence. I consider that solid enough, given that I have multiple item votes as well and given that he (unlike ToeJam) didnā€™t deny it. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1798 "2012-04-23T15:48:14Z")
**Normal Phase** : Yes, I tried to shoot you. I found it curious that you could avoid my damage entirely without a guard from someone else, but of course I was dead and couldnā€™t say anything about that. Up to you on what you do now. Reveal publicly, PM me, or tell me to go lick a walnut and stay silent on the issue. I trust you to act in what you believe is the most pro-town manner, if youā€™re town. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1799 "2012-04-23T15:50:27Z")
Will you tell me the soldierā€™s promotion options? ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480/1800 "2012-04-23T15:50:53Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Please stop pinging me. Itā€™s not good for my sanity. I think weā€™ve thoroughly established you donā€™t know how to read me, soā€¦ Iā€™ll try? Iā€™m still just typing like me, not much I can do about that. > [@](#): > > There was one request of mine from yesterday that you never responded to, that Iā€™d really like to see you do now that youā€™re around again. Namely, look at who among your defenders and the people who were wishy-washy about you looks suspicious. Danke. Thatā€™s a ā€œwait til Iā€™m homeā€ request. Iā€™ll do it later tonight. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480.md?page=89) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-game-the-realm-of-phere/617480.md?page=91)