# Mafia: Mutiny on the SS Incorrigible **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 14, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676 "2011-03-14T17:51:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/421 "2011-03-25T19:15:38Z")
Well. I didn’t expect that. ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/422 "2011-03-25T19:33:40Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > **Natlaw** is killed and was Loyal Crew. \*As he floats out of the airlock, you manage to catch a glimpse of him holding up a card with a thickly underlined \ ***Loyal** … Good luck crew! ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/423 "2011-03-25T19:34:57Z")
Idle, why did you choose you to promote over Inner Stickler? Fluid, why did you choose to demote natlaw over promoting Inner Stickler? ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/424 "2011-03-25T19:52:39Z")
no one interacted with **inner stickler**. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/425 "2011-03-25T20:04:42Z")
> [@Red\_Skeezix](#): > > Idle, why did you choose you to promote over Inner Stickler? > > Fluid, why did you choose to demote natlaw over promoting Inner Stickler? Because: 1. I know I’m Town. I don’t know what Inner Stickler is. Sure, a mason claim has weight, but I know, without a doubt, I’m Town. 2. I was said to be Loyal by the former Doctor ( **Mahaloth** ). Now you could think he’s lying scum, but that would mean you’d probably think both of us are scum, then–unless you think he’s scum and I’m Town–but even you can’t think scum would be stupid enough to risk two members at the beginning of the game. And don’t get me wrong, he very well could be scum–I have no idea–but he’s not wrong about my alignment. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/426 "2011-03-25T20:55:55Z")
**vote: fubbleskag** **vote: fluiddruid** **vote: Mahaloth** **vote: Hal Briston** 1. Same as yesterday. 2. Same as yesterday, plus her choice to lynch Drain Bead over Hal right before deadline irked in oh so many ways. First, lynching Drain Bead told us nothing. By the point the day ended, she had been completely absent for several days. Even if she had been scum, the lynch record on her would have been next to useless, since for all that anyone knew she might have been off in the scum thread going “really sorry guys, but I have to leave the game. bus the heck out of me, please”. Given that she was town, what do we have? A bunch of people voting for a lurker. One lurker vote being all but indistinguishable from another, how is anyone supposed to get a handle – based on a vote for Drain Bead alone – on who among them is scum? Second, Hal Briston is Captain and was scummy enough nearly to get lynched. Now he’s _still_ Captain; it’s deja vu all over again. Fluiddruid’s reasoning for not wanting to be Captain herself is utterly baffling and to me comes off as a pose. 3. I should have voted for him yesterday over Red Skeezix. His votes were poor and his own near-last-minute switch (to Fluiddruid, IIRC) also looked bad (almost out of time on library computer, so can’t quite find the words for why. Will try again as time permits.) 4. Same as yesterday, but the least strongly felt of all four. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/427 "2011-03-25T20:57:03Z")
IN my last few seconds here – also, Idle … I just don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![TexCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/texcat/32/9041_2.png) [@TexCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TexCat)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/428 "2011-03-25T21:31:27Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > couple of thoughts since i don’t expect to survive the Night. > > first, i think using engineering as a testing ground for alignment makes sense. as long as we have confirmable town (or better yet confirmed town) they should never occupy this position. if they do in fact land there then the promoter/demoter needs to use their Day power to get them out. [snip] Nice to see you still around peeker. Can you explain this testing ground? Sorry to be so dense, but I just don’t get it. What exactly is the test? Why don’t we want a trusted townie as engineer? And now for something not so new, \*\*Vote: Hal Briston \*\* I didn’t like his original votes yesterDay. I said I was going to be suspicious of anyone leaving partial votes hanging at day end, and Hal did that anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/429 "2011-03-25T22:35:07Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > 1. I should have voted for him yesterday over Red Skeezix. His votes were poor and his own near-last-minute switch (to Fluiddruid, IIRC) also looked bad (almost out of time on library computer, so can’t quite find the words for why. Will try again as time permits.) > . What last minute switch? I unvoted the person I was going to investigate and placed another vote. And I explained my vote even. I mean, I unvoted glowacks, but then realized I would investigate Idle and replaced the vote on glowacks and voted Idle. I needed a fourth vote for my votes to count and fluid was next on my list. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/430 "2011-03-25T22:36:08Z")
Oh, and my votes weren’t bad, either. I do not understand why you think they were. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/431 "2011-03-25T22:38:57Z")
well the way i was thinking **tex** was that if we have a confirmed town the engineer should watch them in case scum decides to off them. now early they may be shooting elsewhere but as we get closer to mid game scum will need to get rid of confirmed townies. therefore, they will need to be wary about killing a confirmed town because they will get busted. seriously if a confirmed turns up dead and the engineer didn’t watch them then they better have a durn good reason. and if you put a confirmed town in the engineer position they just whack away at that person because they’ll be dead before they get results. btw, minor emergency was just an over flowing toilet. god i suck at being a plumber. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/432 "2011-03-26T00:26:30Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Oh, and my votes weren’t bad, either. I do not understand why you think they were. well i can name one off the top of my head that was pretty durn crappy. ---
**Author:** ![TexCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/texcat/32/9041_2.png) [@TexCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TexCat)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/433 "2011-03-26T00:34:07Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > well the way i was thinking **tex** was that if we have a confirmed town the engineer should watch them in case scum decides to off them. now early they may be shooting elsewhere but as we get closer to mid game scum will need to get rid of confirmed townies. therefore, they will need to be wary about killing a confirmed town because they will get busted. seriously if a confirmed turns up dead and the engineer didn’t watch them then they better have a durn good reason. and if you put a confirmed town in the engineer position they just whack away at that person because they’ll be dead before they get results. > > btw, minor emergency was just an over flowing toilet. god i suck at being a plumber. Thanks. Most of that now makes sense. I can see that a confirmed townie engineer would be a very juicy target for scum. But since we already have 2 likely townies in Inner Stickler and Idle Thoughts, it will be hard to condemn any engineer for not watching both of them. And speaking of Idle, > [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > Because: > > 1. I know I’m Town. I don’t know what Inner Stickler is. Sure, a mason claim has weight, but I know, without a doubt, I’m Town. > > 2. I was said to be Loyal by the former Doctor ( **Mahaloth** ). Now you could think he’s lying scum, but that would mean you’d probably think both of us are scum, then–unless you think he’s scum and I’m Town–but even you can’t think scum would be stupid enough to risk two members at the beginning of the game. > > And don’t get me wrong, he very well could be scum–I have no idea–but he’s not wrong about my alignment. You have conveniently left out the possibility that you could be the scum ringleader, which from over here remains a possibility. On preview, I see a remark about crappy votes right after the overflowing toilet post from peeker. hehehe ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/434 "2011-03-26T01:18:34Z")
True…but that’s a, what, 1 in 14 chance? Plus, how could I be the scum ringleader AND a hacker, huh? I’d think being the ringleader would be the role in itself…so, thus, I wouldn’t hold two roles. Since I’ve already proved myself to be A Hacker, I would think that would eliminate my having the role of scum ringleader. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/435 "2011-03-26T01:18:57Z")
Idle can be a ringleader if and only if another scum did the hacking on his behalf. @ Mahaloth, I was referring to the vote on fluiddruid. I conflated that with your Idle-related vote change due to rushing too much. I’m out of town until Monday and really should not be trying to keep up with this game while I am, because I can’t explain shit. I left out priorities before. In current order of suspicion greatest to least: fluiddruid \>\> fubbleskag \>\> Mahaloth \> Hal Briston. Mahaloth is suspected in part due to a potential link to fluiddruid via his vote on her (suspected distancing, due to timing and circumstances). If fluid is not scum, I’ll be less suspicious of Mahaloth. If she is, more so. ---
**Author:** ![Crackrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/919ad9/32.png) [@Crackrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crackrat)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/436 "2011-03-26T01:32:37Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > well the way i was thinking **tex** was that if we have a confirmed town the engineer should watch them in case scum decides to off them. now early they may be shooting elsewhere but as we get closer to mid game scum will need to get rid of confirmed townies. therefore, they will need to be wary about killing a confirmed town because they will get busted. seriously if a confirmed turns up dead and the engineer didn’t watch them then they better have a durn good reason. and if you put a confirmed town in the engineer position they just whack away at that person because they’ll be dead before they get results. Can’t the Engineer target himself at night? If we only have one confirmed town, and if he is the Engineer, then if he is killed the newly promoted Engineer should find out who killed him. Is this correct? Granted, we have to trust the new Engineer without confirming him, but we have to do that if we have the confirmed town elsewhere on the list being watched by an unconfirmed. So I don’t know that we necessarily \*need \*to keep the confirmed out of the Engineer slot. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/437 "2011-03-26T01:51:54Z")
I believe the engineer result resolves at dawn, as part of a night action. So if the engineer is NKed their result dies with them and they can’t share it. The new engineer only gets the opportunity to get the next night’s result. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/438 "2011-03-26T03:31:09Z")
One thing about Idle’s switch to doctor is that it makes it very hard (requires promotion and brigging) to get Inner Stickler to doctor, and somewhat hard (requires promotion given from someone not trusted all that much to have the effect that someone else not trusted must is put into a position of trust) to get anyone at all to reliably report on Mahaloth. A forced mutual confirmation scenario is ok, but will require an outside confirmation Tomorrow anyway - and if one is the ringleader it only has a 50% shot of working as desired. It’s also possible that one’s the ringleader and the other town, but things seemed to have worked out way too well for that to be the case unless Idle is town and just didn’t realize how hard it was to get independent confirmation on Mahaloth by doing what he did. > [@Idle Thoughts](#): > > True..but that’s a, what, 1 in 14 chance? > Plus, how could I be the scum ringleader AND a hacker, huh? I’d think being the ringleader would be the role in itself…so, thus, I wouldn’t hold two roles. Since I’ve already proved myself to be A Hacker, I would think that would eliminate my having the role of scum ringleader. The second point has been addressed, but the first point is also fallacious. I’m not sure of the name of this fallacy (there probably is, it’s fairly common), but compare it to winning the lottery: the overall odds that there’s a winner a few times a year is pretty good even if the odds of each individual person winning is vanishingly small. It doesn’t really matter how unlikely it is you’re a particular role, because someone has to be it: why not you\*, especially if you act the part? > [@Idle Thoughts](#): > > 1. I know I’m Town. I don’t know what Inner Stickler is. Sure, a mason claim has weight, but I know, without a doubt, I’m Town. > > 2. I was said to be Loyal by the former Doctor (Mahaloth). Now you could think he’s lying scum, but that would mean you’d probably think both of us are scum, then–unless you think he’s scum and I’m Town–but even you can’t think scum would be stupid enough to risk two members at the beginning of the game. > > And don’t get me wrong, he very well could be scum–I have no idea–but he’s not wrong about my alignment. You point out to us your Loyalty multiple times even though you were only questioned about the reasons behind your tactics; I can understand that you knowing you yourself are Loyal is important in the argument you’re making, but the way you’ve said it so many times makes me feel a bit suspicious. We know you say you’re town; who doesn’t say that about themselves? You didn’t need to tell us after you got 3 votes, after you got 7 votes, after you were sent for an investigation, and after the investigation came back. Repeating it doesn’t make it more likely to be true. Everything you’re doing is suggesting scum to me, yet you’ve been supposedly investigated as town. Something seems wrong here. Maybe you normally act this incoherently? I don’t know. I’m going to need to do some research; I certainly asked others to do the same for me. Votes to come tomorrow night at the soonest; assume for now that they’re not going to change. \*Paraphrasing a Michigan Lottery slogan ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/439 "2011-03-26T03:33:44Z")
Arg, must resist editing parenthetical note on the name of the fallacy - should be “… (there probably is one, …)” Missed it despite many previews due to changing the wording of that sentence. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/440 "2011-03-26T12:08:55Z")
> [@Crackrat](#): > > Granted, we have to trust the new Engineer without confirming him, but we have to do that if we have the confirmed town elsewhere on the list being watched by an unconfirmed. So I don’t know that we necessarily \*need \*to keep the confirmed out of the Engineer slot. \ but that is kind of my point. we don’t necessarily have to have a confirmed in engineering because we can hold them to doing the most pro town thing available to them under the circumstances and we can trust their results regardless of their alignment. in this specific instance let’s assume for discussion purposes that **inner** is telling the truth. by definition he has to be town. it doesn’t matter whether i am scum or town. if **inner** ends up dead i have three choices. i can finger a scum - whoopee. i can finger a town which means i end up dead the following Day since i am lying scum - whoopee. or i can report a result on a different person which means i most likely get lynched for being a dumbass - whoopee. the only time i would be able to save my ass in fingering a town is if **inner** gets killed by a town vig. but then that person ends up in the brig and we would know it. and to be honest a town vig that kills a confirmed town needs to be released immediately and strung up for being a total idiot. which is a whoopee and wtf moment at the same time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676.md?page=23)