# Mafia: Mutiny on the SS Incorrigible **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 14, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676 "2011-03-14T17:51:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/141 "2011-03-18T18:29:42Z")
Questions have to be sent by PM now Maha, I have one of my own in. But based on how I think things are: Maha sends in orders to investigate IS. Maha is brigged/IS takes over doctor position. (Has to be in that order, since teh brigging takes effect immediately.) At night, Maha gets his result and reports it as IS is town. Overnight, IS is killed, is town. How does this say anything about Mahaloth? ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/142 "2011-03-18T18:31:02Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Yeah, until a ringleader dies, all the investigations are for likely-to-be town. Stanislaus’ point was that you also need to be able to trust the Doctor who made the investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/143 "2011-03-18T18:32:50Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Yeah, until a ringleader dies, all the investigations are for likely-to-be town. Is this a statement of fact or a suggestion of how to proceed? As the latter, I think it’s actually a good one. Lynch the scummy/investigate the probable town tends to be good play for a detective. Or does the investigation results being public from the get-go complicate things? ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/144 "2011-03-18T18:40:16Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Maha sends in orders to investigate IS. > Maha is brigged/IS takes over doctor position. (Has to be in that order, since teh brigging takes effect immediately.) > > At night, Maha gets his result and reports it as IS is town. > > Overnight, IS is killed, is town. > > How does this say anything about Mahaloth? You’re missing the part where IS doesn’t get killed right away but investigates Mahaloth back. If he gets town as well Mahaloth gets released and if at that point one of them gets killed and flips town we can trust their investigation to be honest. Plus if Mahaloth gets kill that moves a likely town into the doctor role. In other words, there is a big incentive for scum to kill those investigated. Maybe that is a reason not to investigate people whose death might shift the officers around. But that would mean not investigating the officers. On one hand I like it sinds it spreads the information (we can judge the officers by their actions as well) but on the other I don’t want a strict rule of never investigating them. Combining the two: investigation those who would become the Doctor if an officer is killed has the benefit of having an likely-town Doctor moving up. Or promoting those who have been investigated could be a good tactic. ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/145 "2011-03-18T18:49:16Z")
Actually to make it specific: Mahaloth investigated IS now, promote IS right after that Today. Tomorrow either IS is dead, IS is investigated scum (and waste the investigation of Tomorrow - but then Mahaloth could be scum as well) or IS is investigated as town and is the Doctor and we can trusts his investigation (unless he is a ring leader). If the roles don’t shift due to kill we can even repeat it Tomorrow - IS investigates Red Skeezix, promote Mahaloth, brig IS. Now Day Three we have an investigated Red Skeezix as (acting) Doctor. Of course that scum won’t interfere with kills is a big if. And there might be a better brig candidate. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/146 "2011-03-18T18:54:40Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Maha sends in orders to investigate IS. > Maha is brigged/IS takes over doctor position. (Has to be in that order, since teh brigging takes effect immediately.) \ what happens if: doc investigates whoever. captain and security brig doc. next person assumes doc position. second doc sends in another differenent investigation. who gets the result? first doc, second doc, both or neither? also, as an aside, any arrest order and carrying out said order before the doc targets someone should be highly frowned upon. maybe that should be a policy vote for this game. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/147 "2011-03-18T18:56:26Z")
Well, there’s the engineer, right? Who is basically a combo tracker/watcher. If someone is reported town at the beginning of the night, then the engineer has the option of watching that player – that’s a disincentive right there for the scum to interfere. Unless the engineer is scum – but then watching someone else than the investigated-town who just got killed would be a black mark regardless, right? OK, I think I see more where the logic is here; I wasn’t taking the engineer into account. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/148 "2011-03-18T18:59:09Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > \ > > what happens if: doc investigates whoever. captain and security brig doc. next person assumes doc position. second doc sends in another differenent investigation. who gets the result? first doc, second doc, both or neither? > > also, as an aside, any arrest order and carrying out said order before the doc targets someone should be highly frowned upon. > > maybe that should be a policy vote for this game. 😃 IIRC from the last game it is not possible for two doctor orders to be sent in a day. The order cannot be rescinded or over-ridden; and brigging is immediate. So in this scenario, IS would not be able to send an order. However, he might well be the person who gets the result _on himself_ – which would be rather pointless, wouldn’t it? I think the discussion is moot if so. Waiting for Pleo’s response to the question Stanislaus said he asked, to find out. ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/149 "2011-03-18T19:01:33Z")
Oops, won’t work with Red Skeezix but can work with peeker, doesn’t require brigging and results in an investigated Head of Engineering. Day Two 4. peekercpa - Head of Engineering 05. Mahaloth - Ship’s Doctor - investigate IS 06. Inner Stickler _Promote IS_ 1. peekercpa - Head of Engineering 2. Inner Stickler - Ship’s Doctor - 3. Mahaloth investigate IS Day Two 4. peekercpa - Head of Engineering 05. Inner Stickler - Ship’s Doctor - investigates peeker 06. Mahaloth investigated IS _Promote IS (if town)_ 1. Inner Stickler - Head of Engineering - investigates peeker 2. peekercpa - Ship’s Doctor 3. Mahaloth investigated IS Day Three 4. Inner Stickler - Head of Engineering - investigated peeker 05. peekercpa - Ship’s Doctor - investage Red Skeezix 06. Mahaloth investigated IS _Promote Red Skeezix, brig Mahaloth_ 1. Inner Stickler - Head of Engineering - investigated peeker 2. Mahaloth investigated IS (brigged) 3. Red Skeezix - acting Ship’s Doctor 4. peekercpa - investage Red Skeezix I think that’s the fastest way to spread the information while getting information about the doctors as well under an ideal situation. Adapt based on who gets killed. ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/150 "2011-03-18T19:07:10Z")
Argh, made the same mistake again (also numbering is not consistent :p), second part Day three should be: _Promote Red Skeezix, brig peeker_ 1. Inner Stickler - Head of Engineering - investigated peeker 2. peekercpa - investage Red Skeezix (Ship’s Doctor but brigged) 3. Red Skeezix - acting Ship’s Doctor 4. Mahaloth investigated IS Day Four: _Release peeker_ And it’s assuming that whomever made the investigation gets the result, regardless whether in the brig or not. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/151 "2011-03-18T19:09:58Z")
Again, based on vague recollection from the last game, this will not work (note: you mean day one here): > [@](#): > > Day Two > 4. peekercpa - Head of Engineering > 05. Mahaloth - Ship’s Doctor - investigate IS > 06. Inner Stickler > > Promote IS > > 1. peekercpa - Head of Engineering > 2. Inner Stickler - Ship’s Doctor - > 3. Mahaloth investigate IS Mahaloth won’t get the results, I don’t believe, because at this point he’s no longer ship’s doctor. IS will get the results. ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/152 "2011-03-18T19:12:21Z")
Also for Day Three it assumes that “Crew members advance to fill missing offices” for brigged officers as well which is not explicit in the rules. But I realize the brigging is not needed since the investigation has already been done Day Three. Could just promote Red Skeezix again Day Four and only then let him do the investigate for that Day. ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/153 "2011-03-18T19:23:52Z")
Day One 4. peekercpa - Head of Engineering 5. Mahaloth - Ship’s Doctor - investigate peeker 6. Inner Stickler _Promote Inner Stickler_ Day Two _Promote Inner Stickler_ 6. Inner Stickler - Head of Engineering, result on Peeker 4. peekercpa - Ship’s Doctor - investigate Mahaloth 5. Mahaloth Day Three _Promote Mahaloth_ 6. Inner Stickler - Head of Engineering, result on Peeker 5. Mahaloth - Ship’s Doctor 4. peekercpa - result on Mahaloth Mmm the promote Day one is not necessary. And the doctor gets his own result always. Day One 4. peekercpa - Head of Engineering 5. Mahaloth - Ship’s Doctor - investigate peeker 6. Inner Stickler Day Two _Promote Mahaloth_ 5. Mahaloth - Head of Engineering, result on Peeker 4. peekercpa - Ship’s Doctor - investigate Inner Stickler 6. Inner Stickler Day Three _Promote Inner Stickler_ 5. Mahaloth - Head of Engineering, result on Peeker 6. Inner Stickler - Ship’s Doctor 4. peekercpa - result on Inner Stickler A investigation on the Head of Engineering is tempting but that makes him a prime kill target. A killed HofE cannot report his Night result I think. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/154 "2011-03-18T19:24:53Z")
Day One i presume. > [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Well, there’s the engineer, … watching someone else than the investigated-town who just got killed would be a black mark regardless, right? \ > [@Natlaw](#): > > Oops, won’t work with Red Skeezix but can work with peeker, doesn’t require brigging and results in an investigated Head of Engineering. > > Day Two > 4. peekercpa - Head of Engineering > > Day Three > 05. peekercpa - Ship’s Doctor - investage Red Skeezix \ okie dokie. looks like my dance card is full for the next several weeks. i’ll see you in april if i don’t get killed before then. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/155 "2011-03-18T19:28:06Z")
> [@Natlaw](#): > > Also for Day Three it assumes that “Crew members advance to fill missing offices” for brigged officers as well which is not explicit in the rules. But I realize the brigging is not needed since the investigation has already been done Day Three. Could just promote Red Skeezix again Day Four and only then let him do the investigate for that Day. I put in a question about this one but am assuming the same as you. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/156 "2011-03-18T19:35:59Z")
> [@Natlaw](#): > > A investigation on the Head of Engineering is tempting but **that makes him a prime kill target**. A killed HofE cannot report his Night result I think. \ i’d say this part of the plan makes me a tad bit anxious. and what the fuck, are you and **normal** doing some sort of weird ass channelling thing? ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/157 "2011-03-18T19:42:24Z")
> [@Natlaw](#): > > Day Four: > _Release peeker_ \ crap if it plays out like **natty** suggests i’ll be nothing but residual rat droppings by that point. ---
**Author:** ![TexCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/texcat/32/9041_2.png) [@TexCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TexCat)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/158 "2011-03-18T19:47:30Z")
> [@Natlaw](#): > > If I read the rules right a Hacker can replace the Captain or Exo (or anyone) with whomever he wants once. > > How about this to keep our Captain honest: if he doesn’t have a good candidate by the end of the Day to arrest or release, he should put out an arrest warrant for himself. The Chief then can brig the Captain if needed. > > I don’t think I like it though since outstanding warrants give the mutineers more options to reach their win condition (get someone as Chief, brig a town with outstanding warrant). I’m not sure why the Cap’n needs to brig anyone, much less himself, at least until we have further information about who might be scummy and who might be loyal. Furthermore, if Cap’n brigged himself, it would throw off all of these careful calculations of doctors and engineers investigating themselves. My head is already spinning from trying to keep all of that straight. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/159 "2011-03-18T19:54:17Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > I was initially leaning towards “do advise the rank positions”, too, I just can’t quite figure out _why_ I was, given how strongly opposed I usually am to telling power roles what to do. Most especially the ones who are known or very likely to be town, but really even the ones whose alignment is questionable (as would be the case here). I’ve picked up on scum many times due to illogical use of their claimed role, something that might not have happened if said scum had the benefit ahead of time of knowing what the bulk of townies expected of him. > > There is the alternate course of forcing actions (that is we take straw polls on everything, and the power roles hold to the majority decision or expect to pay the price) – in certain circumstances that can also be effective to use one scum against another one. But I don’t really see it as practical here, even if it were advisable. > > To a certain extent there’s a risk of the townies ourselves providing cover for scum decisions if we give too much advice, isn’t there? > > Ultimately I think it comes down to whether it’s more important for the town as a whole to be able to correctly judge the occupants of the power positions than it is for the power positions to use their abilities optimally. The latter is more likely if there is more discussion. There former is more likely if there is less. If there’s an action that’s plainly obvious and there’s no reasonable argument against, then we should in general be directing powers to take that action. But putting things up to a vote and forcing people to go along doesn’t sound like a very good plan unless there’s actual consensus. If there are good arguments on both sides it’s likely the scum will be trying to tilt the vote in their favor and thus the town’s actual majority will need to be significant. If we force people to follow close votes they don’t agree with, we may be allowing the scum to do more of what they want to have happen than they could have done otherwise. Perhaps if we had a 3/4 majority on a plan we’d be good, but I definitely hesitate to let scum have potential access to even more officer roles than they actual hold. The above applies mainly to the top three officers. It’s probably never a good idea to give the engineer a specific order each night because then we guarantee he sees nothing interesting. Unless we really want to protect someone from being killed, we’ll need to let the engineer use their own judgment - or at least give them a mixed (probabilistic) strategy. Maybe once we’re down to two scum and we think we have one in the brig we can request the engineer watch someone else we suspect in order to maybe create a no-kill night, but before then giving the engineer an order and expecting him to follow it makes the ability borderline useless. As to the doctor, well, the entire discussion depends on how the rules actually work, and people seem to be disagreeing - so that will have to wait. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676/160 "2011-03-18T19:54:35Z")
Since multiple players are asking, I’ll quote myself: > [@Pleonast](#): > > Whoever was Doctor immediately before the lynch gets the information via PM immediately after the lynch. It doesn’t matter who was the Doc that issued the order. Also, empty positions are filled immediately. I’ll get around to updating the roster, but newly promoted officers can use their powers immediately. Note that officers’ powers limited by the office, not the player. That is, one arrest warrant, one release warrant, one rank change, one arrest, one release, one examination. One an officer issues a valid order, that office has acted that Day. The Brig blocks the imprisoned player from using powers and voting; it also protect against kills. It does not protect against other powers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-incorrigible/574676.md?page=9)