# Mafia: Mutiny on the SS Insipid \[Game Over\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 31, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-insipid-game-over/504896 "2009-07-31T18:32:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ColdPhoenix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@ColdPhoenix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ColdPhoenix)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-insipid-game-over/504896/61 "2009-08-05T07:45:33Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Does anybody have any recommendations as to whom I should examine toDay? My inclination is to pick **ColdPhoenix** , **Normal Phase** , or **Ichini Sanshigo** , just because I’m worried about the possibility of mutineers in the top three positions. I will of course be making the final decision myself, but suggestions and discussion are always welcome. I disagree with this too. I’m an obvious target for scum but not for town. If I’m scum, I’ve no real power in the role anyway. I can order arrests but rely on security to make them. If he’s not scum then I may as well not be captain. If I’m town, killing me promotes every mutineer one position. This and the other post I highlighted are making me suspicious of **Chronos**. ---
**Author:** ![ColdPhoenix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@ColdPhoenix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ColdPhoenix)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-insipid-game-over/504896/62 "2009-08-05T08:10:06Z")
> [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > I politely disagree with Chronos on the XO’s power to promote/demote. Says 3rd technician **Scuba\_Ben**! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ColdPhoenix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@ColdPhoenix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ColdPhoenix)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-insipid-game-over/504896/63 "2009-08-05T08:23:22Z")
> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > …people with hidden roles considering the possibility of forecasting them so as not confuse the Engineer. Mmmmm… So if one of the top three are spaced as below: > [@Chronos](#): > > Does anybody have any recommendations as to whom I should examine toDay? My inclination is to pick **ColdPhoenix** , **Normal Phase** , or **Ichini Sanshigo** , just because I’m worried about the possibility of mutineers in the top three positions. Then the two info roles will be held by these two suspicious characters. If they’re scum and we follow their reasoning we’ll have shipped a loyal officer, won’t have any info roles in town hands and will be telling scum all our power roles. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-insipid-game-over/504896/64 "2009-08-05T13:16:30Z")
Ye gods, near accusations so early, and I haven’t even had my coffee yet. Regarding Town players claiming roles before ever using them – no. I mean, maybe, just maybe, there’s a role or two that would not make you immediate Scum-bait to claim, but my caffeine-deprived brain is not coming up with one. And even if so, there’s another danger, in that such a general move could provide cover for one of the Scum to step forward with a fraudulent role, no doubt one that conveniently requires wandering around at night. I’d much rather evaluate any Engineer discoveries on their own merits, as they come up. So I disagree with our current Engineer about that, and agree with **ColdPhoenix** that it appears suspicious. On the other hand, I do not agree that it would be a bad thing to examine one of the top officers. Any of us accused by **Chronos** thereafter would be spaced, agreed, and he would move up a rung along with **Cookies** , agreed – however, if it turns out a false accusation, can we just agree that the three players in the top three positions thereafter would take care of the problem immediately, or themselves fall under suspicion? The one thing I could quibble with in that plan is that I do not believe **Inner Stickler** should be excluded from consideration. It’s true that Scum trying to cope with a role like that often give themselves away eventually, but they can create a lot of problems in the meantime. And this game is small – too small for the Town to survive many false assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-insipid-game-over/504896/65 "2009-08-05T13:18:44Z")
(Whoops, wish I could edit. When I said “I agree with our current Engineer on that”, that should have been Doctor. I was referring to **Chronos**.) ---
**Author:** ![ColdPhoenix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@ColdPhoenix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ColdPhoenix)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-insipid-game-over/504896/66 "2009-08-05T13:30:33Z")
Ah. I’d read the **Chronos** post incorrectly. I thought he was asking who we should vote for to kill. Ignore post 61 and the second half of 63. I’d just got into work after a heavy night out… It does make sense to examine the top people. The ranking for examination I’d choose would be: XO - as he’s the power to promote without anyone else’s help required Engineer - possibility of spreading dissinformation Captain - can’t do anything without security support Security - can throw people in the brig ---
**Author:** ![ColdPhoenix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@ColdPhoenix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ColdPhoenix)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-insipid-game-over/504896/67 "2009-08-05T13:37:01Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > On the other hand, I do not agree that it would be a bad thing to examine one of the top officers. Any of us accused by **Chronos** thereafter would be spaced, agreed, and he would move up a rung along with **Cookies** , agreed – however, if it turns out a false accusation, can we just agree that the three players in the top three positions thereafter would take care of the problem immediately, or themselves fall under suspicion? Agree with this. Though I don’t think **Chronos** would risk a false accusation as he would get spaced next day. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-insipid-game-over/504896/68 "2009-08-05T13:42:15Z")
I might rank the Captain somewhat higher because he cannot be removed by any means other than death, and he’s a potential roadblock if the Brig is ever required. On the other hand, that’s not likely to happen in the first day or so, and for all we know the mutineers may decide to kill you anyway. I’m not sure how thrilled I would be to be generally known as loyal so early, but I can hardly object. ---
**Author:** ![ColdPhoenix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@ColdPhoenix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ColdPhoenix)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-insipid-game-over/504896/69 "2009-08-05T13:55:12Z")
Well the mutineers know I’m loyal anyway. I’d say there’s a good chance I’m going. When people in the top jobs aren’t being night-killed then they’ll be suspicious. Unless that’s what they want us to think. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-insipid-game-over/504896/70 "2009-08-05T14:00:39Z")
> [@ColdPhoenix](#): > > Says 3rd technician **Scuba\_Ben**! 😃 As I said last page, that’s _Ensign 7th Class_ Scuba Ben. Does nobody here play the classic games? Anyhow – It occurred to me overnight that in the midgame we just might be able to break this game apart, if I read the rules correctly. I believe people in the Brig cannot take any actions, including participating in the Mutineers’ Night discussions and spacing. If this is accurate, then once we have trusted people as CO, XO, and Security, we can throw people in the Brig and methodically lynch the rest, then methodically lynch the people in the Brig. As I type this out, I realize that this requires a protective role to defend the CO, XO, and Security during that period. And the Ship’s Doctor is a Detective not a Doctor role. In other news, I want to experiment with this game’s rule that we may cast multiple votes to lynch. In the interests of fairness and non-randomness: **Lynch Everybody**. (Yes, that means I’m voting to lynch all ten players, even myself.) My biggest reason for this vote is that in Lost Mafia I firmly established that I can’t find Scum to save my life. Whoever I vote for on Day 1 is almost guaranteed to be Loyal in this game, so I’m just going to start with that. AOP: Lots of posts while I’m typing this up. Back in a few… ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-insipid-game-over/504896/71 "2009-08-05T14:06:33Z")
It seems to me that the other candidate for an Exam would be **Cookies** , as a Night-kill of an officer would promote em to Doctor. And if our lynchee is an officer, the other candidate for the first Exam is **DiggitCamera** , same reasoning. Which means that based solely on starting ranks, Hal, Darth and myself are poor choices for a first Exam. As to **Chronos** ’s thought in #53, early role claims would be a bad idea, as noted that it would almost certainly give the Muties a good target. In all fairness, I’ve had my share of bad ideas before. ---
**Author:** ![Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d9b06d/32.png) [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichini_Sanshigo)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-insipid-game-over/504896/72 "2009-08-05T16:30:44Z")
Confirming role pm… ---
**Author:** ![Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d9b06d/32.png) [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichini_Sanshigo)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-insipid-game-over/504896/73 "2009-08-05T16:47:13Z")
I do agree that the best candidates for investigation are the three top officers, as those are pretty powerful positions for mutineers to hold. I slightly disagree on **Chronos’s** assertion about the Brig. Yes, it’s risky early in the game, but I think it would be pretty useful after we’ve spaced at least one mutineer. I’m hesitant to make assumptions about the number of mutineers after what happened in the last game, but I think that there would be from 2 to 4, max. Assuming 2 scum, if we have one dead scum, and 1 suspected scum in the Brig, and there’s no night kill, then: 1. Either the person we brigged is scum 2. Or they’re innocent and the remaining scum decided not to act so as to cement suspicion on the unfortunate detainee 3. But either way we avoid losing a loyal crew member to a night kill. If there’s a 3rd mutineer, and we’ve killed one of their comrades and brigged the other, then I’m thinking the likelihood that they would NK is high, simply because _not_ killing casts more suspicion on the guy in the brig. What do y’all think? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-insipid-game-over/504896/74 "2009-08-05T17:09:37Z")
First of all, I’m absolutely not suggesting that we space one of the officers, at least not without evidence. If I investigate and find a Mutie, then of course I’m going to push for that person’s lynch, and there’s always the possibility that one of them will screw up and post something Scummy, but “lynch all officers” would be terrible as a policy. Second, another implication occurred to me about the Brig: If we don’t use the brig at all, and we have the expected number of kills, then we’ll have three Days each of investigations from the Doctor(s) and Engineer(s). But if, on the third day, we have two or more people in the Brig, then we’ll lose the services of those two officers. I don’t think I need to tell everyone how valuable such investigations are, so we at least want to really avoid being in that situation. Third, on the number of Muties: If the sample PMs that **Pleonast** gave us are completely accurate, then there have to be at least three Muties, since each one is told > [@](#): > > You are a mutinous crew-member. Your comrades are (…). If each Mutie has comrades, plural, then there must be at least three of them, total. I think this might be stretched to two Muties, but one looks to be right out. Meanwhile, if there are four or more muties, then we’re at LyLo _right now_, and I find it hard to believe that **Pleonast** would build a game that way. If we mislynch toDay, and then have a Night-kill toNight, we’d be at 4 Town, 4 Scum, and they could block a lynch by all not voting (since a clear majority is required for a lynch). The only way we could possibly avoid a loss in that case would be to brig a Mutie, which would require first that we can figure out who one is, and second that both our Captain and our Security Officer must both be loyal. So I believe that we most likely have three Muties, with two still plausible, and almost certainly not one or four. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-insipid-game-over/504896/75 "2009-08-05T17:26:34Z")
**Rules Clarifications** Post editing is absolutely not allowed. The crew can choose to not lynch by explicitly voting “No Lynch”, as well as the other mechanisms for failing to reach a consensus. The mutineers may choose to not Night kill. ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-insipid-game-over/504896/76 "2009-08-05T18:10:24Z")
I don’t think we should go into the whole “parsing the instructions” deal. It’s meta-gaming and usually won’t yield any useful information anyhow. On whom to lynch: I agree that lynching an Officer should be a second option (at least during these first few games), because we simply haven’t got information on anyone and their behavior, being public, will make their allegiance easier to discern on the long run. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-insipid-game-over/504896/77 "2009-08-05T19:44:55Z")
First of all, I am not advocating anything more than hidden power roles at least considering telegraphy. If someone can do something that might impact an Engineer examination, how do those of you who seem to be objecting preemptively to any telegraphy propose we deal with what appears to be an impacted examination? There are potentially many variables to such an examination: A) The alignment of the Engineer B) The alignment of the Engineer’s exam Target C) Any powers of the Engineer’s exam Target D) The alignment of anyone else who could also be targeting the Engineer’s exam Target E) Any powers of anyone else who could also be targeting the Engineer’s exam Target All I am saying is that an honest telegraphy/claim for C) or E) could greatly simplify the parsing of what could be a very confusing and complicated situation for us to try and untangle, regardless of the alignment of the Engineer. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-insipid-game-over/504896/78 "2009-08-05T21:29:05Z")
Quoth **Scuba\_Ben** : > [@](#): > > In other news, I want to experiment with this game’s rule that we may cast multiple votes to lynch. In the interests of fairness and non-randomness: Lynch Everybody. (Yes, that means I’m voting to lynch all ten players, even myself.) Interestingly, this is actually slightly better than not voting at all (but only slightly). It won’t change _who_ gets lynched, but it could change _whether_ we get a lynch, since it puts everyone closer to the majority threshold needed. Since a no-lynch is bad, actions that avoid the no-lynch are good. Still, I think a slightly more focused vote would be more useful, and hope that **Scuba** unvotes some folks (presumably including himself) before Day’s end. Quoth **DiggitCamera** : > [@](#): > > I don’t think we should go into the whole “parsing the instructions” deal. It’s meta-gaming and usually won’t yield any useful information anyhow. Perhaps, but it’s probably pretty unlikely that we only have one Mutineer, anyway. In any event, I certainly wouldn’t want to rule out the possibility of three, in which case lynching one and brigging someone else probably wouldn’t tell us anything. For the record, by the way, I’ve got a friend coming in from out of town tonight through the weekend, so my activity level will be much reduced in the next few days. I’ll be back more after that (probably Monday or Tuesday). ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Sensitive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Darth\_Sensitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Sensitive)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-insipid-game-over/504896/79 "2009-08-05T21:51:59Z")
> [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > I believe people in the Brig cannot take any actions, including participating in the Mutineers’ Night discussions and spacing. If this is accurate, then once we have trusted people as CO, XO, and Security, we can throw people in the Brig and methodically lynch the rest, then methodically lynch the people in the Brig. That looks to be quite a risky assumption to me, especially as those in the brig can discuss everything else in game. The rules say that you can’t “take action” at night, vote, or do anything related to their position in the day. If you’re town, well, it was a simple misunderstanding - if you’re scum, you’re possibly misleading the town into misunderestimating your capabilities. Anti town mistake at best. **Vote Scuba Ben** ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-insipid-game-over/504896/80 "2009-08-05T21:53:45Z")
Why is failure to lynch anyone automatically bad on Day 1, barring someone slipping up badly, or something? The odds seem most likely to be either 7-3 (with more powerful hidden town roles) or 8-2 (with less powerful ones) that we get it wrong – and given the Scum won’t be encouraging votes for themselves, probably worse than that. Yes, we have firmer vote information to work with later, but Day 1 votes are iffy to draw conclusions on anyway, given that no one but the Scum knows anything. I’m not suggesting we all hurry out and vote no-lynch, though. Too much talking to be done, not enough people talking yet. Regarding claims of hidden power roles again – well, only the person with such a hypothetical role would really be in a position to judge the benefits and the risks of coming forth today, right? I think the rest of us should just back off and give them credit for having brains in their heads, rather than pushing them to come forward without reflection, or wasting effort trying to anticipate what **pleonast** might have done. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-insipid-game-over/504896.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-mutiny-on-the-ss-insipid-game-over/504896.md?page=5)