# Mafia: Not-so-simple-Simpletown **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 6, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592 "2009-03-06T22:58:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hero_From_Sector_7G)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/221 "2009-03-14T23:30:57Z")
I think this is important enough to stress again. > [@Old rule](#): > > Game related communication outside the game thread is forbidden, except for scum who may communicate at Night and only at Night. > [@New Rule](#): > > Game related communication outside the game thread is forbidden, except for off-board communications established by the moderator. > [@given reason](#): > > The discrepancy is in the off-board communications. I copied the rules from Simpletown which restricted scum talk to Night only. The rules do not make that stipulation in not-so-simple Simpletown, for various not-so-simple reasons. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/222 "2009-03-14T23:34:12Z")
Ahh kay, Thank you **Natlaw** and **ok11** - “scum” is the generic name for the non-town faction, not “wolves”. Gotchya. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/223 "2009-03-14T23:42:00Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Is it common in these Mafia games for people to start racing their votes in on the most flimsy of reasoning? > > I don’t know whether what I’m seeing so far is: > > - Carefully thought out strategy > - Impatience > - Naive newbie error > - An over-estimation of one’s ability to identify wolves > > In the only other game of Mafia that I have observed (the Split game), a couple of early votes for a user called _november_ snowballed in to a landslide lynching of an innocent townie. _november’s_ crime was to have a low post count, and this was wrongly perceived as suspicious. I saw the whole thing as people wanting to save their own skin, instead of thinking about what was best for the town. > > Whatever we do, let’s avoid early pile-on landslides. We win as the town, right? Not as individuals? Carelessly tossing out early lynch votes plays straight in to the wolves’ hands. Instead, we should be forming sensible voting blocs against those who show genuine discrepancies and inconsistencies. > > As a newbie, one thing has occurred to me: > > What if all of us townies agreed to withhold our lynch votes until the last 24 earth hours of the game Day? We immediately fire our lynch votes, _and lock them in_, at the first person to break the rule. Even if the first lynch turns up townie, the lesson will be learned and the mistake will not be repeated. This will allow us to successfully gain control of _when_ the wolves can vote, stifling their ability to cause the early pile-on nonsense from the Split game. > > Another thing: Assuming we went with the above strategy, what if us townies all agreed to have made our lynch vote decision _prior_ to the last 24 earth hours of the game Day? We all then stick with our vote, _no matter what_ pile-on nonsense is developing in the thread. One of two things will then happen: > > \*\*\* A townie gets lynched\*\* > > - The wolves, knowing that the townie votes will probably be split across many people, vote as a bloc to kill off a townie, or: > - Individual townies, acting independently of each other, all wrongly identify an innocent townie as a wolf. > > I think option 2 is unlikely, and we can then focus our suspicion on those who voted to lynch the townie. > > \*\*\* A wolf gets lynched\*\* > > - Success! > > Is there any sense in my strategy? Or are these types of wild ideas just common but long-discredited newbie attempts at intelligent Mafia strategy? The problem with this is that you’d need to get a majority of people to agree with your plan and overcome the logistical problems to support it–both of which are highly improbable. > [@ok11](#): > > I think I spotted the first perfect information slip: > How do you know wolves can talk during the Day? Who says we’re playing against wolves? > > vote MentalGuy Whoa. Good catch! **Unvote SoT&B** **Vote MentalGuy** ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/224 "2009-03-14T23:59:11Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > What if all of us townies agreed to withhold our lynch votes until the last 24 earth hours of the game Day? We immediately fire our lynch votes, _and lock them in_, at the first person to break the rule. Even if the first lynch turns up townie, the lesson will be learned and the mistake will not be repeated. This will allow us to successfully gain control of _when_ the wolves can vote, stifling their ability to cause the early pile-on nonsense from the Split game. This gives the Scum an opportunity to influence the game unduly in the last few minutes. It also provides the lynchee limited time to defend themselves and/or claim a role which may be useful. > [@straggler](#): > > Another thing: Assuming we went with the above strategy, what if us townies all agreed to have made our lynch vote decision _prior_ to the last 24 earth hours of the game Day? We all then stick with our vote, _no matter what_ pile-on nonsense is developing in the thread. One of two things will then happen: Stick with it no matter what? Isn’t this the same as the previous example, except that Scum might change, weak townies might change, and…um, we’ll have wasted a calendar day that was supposed to be used for discussion. > [@straggler](#): > > \*\*\* A townie gets lynched\*\* > > - The wolves, knowing that the townie votes will probably be split across many people, vote as a bloc to kill off a townie, or: > - Individual townies, acting independently of each other, all wrongly identify an innocent townie as a wolf. > > I think option 2 is unlikely, and we can then focus our suspicion on those who voted to lynch the townie. > > \*\*\* A wolf gets lynched\*\* > > - Success! > > Is there any sense in my strategy? Or are these types of wild ideas just common but long-discredited newbie attempts at intelligent Mafia strategy? There’s a lot wrong with the end…but I see this might be how our newbie might have assumed we have wolves and not some other form of Scum. So, we limit ourselves to lynching whoever voted for the lynchee? All Scum has to do is avoid voting for the lynch leader. It’s not unheard of for Scum to split their votes evenly amongst candidates. It’s also not unheard of for scum to cmpletely avoid voting for a lynch leader. If 2 or 3 leading candidates are all Town, Scum can safely avoid voting for the lynch leader. I think our best strategy…and try to follow along…VOTE FOR WHO YOU THINK IS MOST LIKELY TO BE SCUM then, when we get more information, let’s analyze what we have instead of trying to analyze information before we actually get it. ---
**Author:** ![MentalGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MentalGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MentalGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/225 "2009-03-15T00:25:35Z")
Actually, the only Mafia thread I have even read before this one was the Werewolf “The Split” one, and I had wolf on my mind. I actually believe the scum in this one are probably assassins, though I don’t think it has been said specifically. With the moderators amendment to the rules, I was assuming the scum could talk during the day, but I see on re-read that is not specifically stated, though I think it is implied. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/226 "2009-03-15T00:29:20Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > This gives the Scum an opportunity to influence the game unduly in the last few minutes. Whatever last minute influence you’re talking about, it’s going to have to be something _other_ than a changing of their vote, or repeatedly being amongst the last batch of players to lodge their vote. That doesn’t sound very influential to me. > [@](#): > > It also provides the lynchee limited time to defend themselves and/or claim a role which may be useful The lynchee gets no chance to defend themselves. This is a strength of the tactic, not a flaw. > [@](#): > > So, we limit ourselves to lynching whoever voted for the lynchee? All Scum has to do is avoid voting for the lynch leader. It’s not unheard of for Scum to split their votes evenly amongst candidates. It’s also not unheard of for scum to cmpletely avoid voting for a lynch leader. If 2 or 3 leading candidates are all Town, Scum can safely avoid voting for the lynch leader. You’re assuming that scum will have the luxury of always being available to cast their votes in the dying minutes of game Day - unlikely. You can only see who the genuine lynch leader is if most other people have voted. If we force people to cast their vote in the last 24 earth hours of game Day, there’s simply not enough time for the scum to co-ordinate their voting strategy around the existing votes. Even if, by some chance, they do have the time, how obvious is it going to look when the same group of players are constantly amongst the last to put their vote in? There’s simply no way they can do it without exposing themselves. Hence why once a vote gets put in, it’s locked - and we lynch anyone who breaks the rule. > [@](#): > > I think our best strategy…and try to follow along…VOTE FOR WHO YOU THINK IS MOST LIKELY TO BE SCUM Yep.. I’ve never suggested any different. All I’ve suggested is not change your mind once you have put your vote in. Regardless.. it seems my strategy is not getting much traction. Perhaps it would be a better strategy to use at a later point in the game. There is no denying the genuine benefits of hurting the scum’s ability to make vote decisions based on the existing votes in the thread, and denying them any possible avenue of influence once a vote is cast. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/227 "2009-03-15T00:52:34Z")
**straggler** , you’re assuming the only influence is in the vote. I’ve seen many a game where, late in the Day, a Scum will come in and say something along the lines of "oh, I just don’t know who to vote for. What does everyone think of **Player X**? I noticed that they did \*this \*and _that_. A little momentum builds and it is done. Are you saying that no one can influence another player with mere words? A Vote can be influence, but it’s actually our thoughts, ideas, reasoning, accusation, etc that carry (or should carry) the brunt of our influence. If not, what’s the point of us even talking? And, I **DO** want to give our power roles a chance to claim. Could a Scum lie? Yes, but I think we’ll figure that out eventually. I see your method actually being able to help Scum without providing any benefit to Town. We’ll still be talking and influencing each other, and by voting late, Scum can either hide under the radar or react just enough to insure we have minimal information. I don’t think we’ll have any Scum foolish enough to back your plan, but I bet in their hearts, they’re hoping it’ll go though 😃 ---
**Author:** ![paulwhoisaghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e5b9ba/32.png) [@paulwhoisaghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paulwhoisaghost)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/228 "2009-03-15T00:57:47Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Whatever last minute influence you’re talking about, it’s going to have to be something _other_ than a changing of their vote, or repeatedly being amongst the last batch of players to lodge their vote. That doesn’t sound very influential to me. > The lynchee gets no chance to defend themselves. This is a strength of the tactic, not a flaw. > You’re assuming that scum will have the luxury of always being available to cast their votes in the dying minutes of game Day - unlikely. You can only see who the genuine lynch leader is if most other people have voted. > > If we force people to cast their vote in the last 24 earth hours of game Day, there’s simply not enough time for the scum to co-ordinate their voting strategy around the existing votes. Even if, by some chance, they do have the time, how obvious is it going to look when the same group of players are constantly amongst the last to put their vote in? There’s simply no way they can do it without exposing themselves. Hence why once a vote gets put in, it’s locked - and we lynch anyone who breaks the rule. > Yep.. I’ve never suggested any different. All I’ve suggested is not change your mind once you have put your vote in. > > Regardless.. it seems my strategy is not getting much traction. Perhaps it would be a better strategy to use at a later point in the game. There is no denying the genuine benefits of hurting the scum’s ability to make vote decisions based on the existing votes in the thread, and denying them any possible avenue of influence once a vote is cast. I take issue with a few of your points in this strategy… no actually with the whole strategy. You say the benefit of it is that the lynchee gets no chance to defend themselves? So now we just vote blind and hope for the best? Half this game is defending yourself and showing what you have done that precludes you form being scum. Not allowing time for discussion prevents us from being able to gain more info to base our votes on. No time to defend ourselves won’t allow for claiming, which has saved many a townie’s skin. And it won’t allow for a proper argument from which to gather a logical and gut feeling of the lynchee’s scumminess. Next point I have issue with, waiting til the last 24 hours to vote does not make scum scramble to figure out how to vote. It actually gives them more time to figure out how to best use their votes in a way that a vote analysis will not make it obvious who is scum. It’s far easier to find scum based on mistakes they make because the voting started one way and shift to another before the end of they day. If they don’t expect it, it could cause them to me too or bandwagon not once but twice in a Day. This is but one example of how natural vote progression helps us analyze peoples actions. And finally, vote analysis will not always find scum. Pedescribe’s SSBM game that just ended should be proof of that. Everyone thought that Molefan was as town as they come, and that’s why town lost. Again, it isn’t hard for scum to place their votes strategically, what is hard is explaining those votes. Oh, and don’t get all huffy about the votes running on the slimmest bit of logic. We don’t have a whole lot of that running around on Day1. Things will start to get more logical on Day2. ---
**Author:** ![Almost\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@Almost\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Almost_Human)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/229 "2009-03-15T10:32:40Z")
[QUOTE=MentalGuy;10936996 Also, I believe locking in votes would give too much power to the wolves since they can talk during the Day. [/QUOTE] The possibility of scum talking during the Day has already been discussed so you should really have known it wasn’t a fact. It’s a pretty good reason for a Day 1 vote for the time being. **vote MentalGuy** ---
**Author:** ![Almost\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@Almost\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Almost_Human)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/230 "2009-03-15T11:05:06Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Is it common in these Mafia games for people to start racing their votes in on the most flimsy of reasoning Yes it is common on Day 1. The votes themselves are less important than the discussion they generate. > [@](#): > > I don’t know whether what I’m seeing so far is: > > - Carefully thought out strategy > - Impatience > - Naive newbie error > - An over-estimation of one’s ability to identify wolves A bit of the first, a bit of the last, not so much the middle two though it happens. Voting early really does get discussion going. Most people who vote early have no expectation of necessarily keeping their vote where it is but it’s a tried and tested method of a) guaging reactions and b) getting answers. And generally the reactions produce enough information for the vote to stick or move onto a better target. > [@](#): > > n the only other game of Mafia that I have observed (the Split game), a couple of early votes for a user called _november_ snowballed in to a landslide lynching of an innocent townie. _november’s_ crime was to have a low post count, and this was wrongly perceived as suspicious. I saw the whole thing as people wanting to save their own skin, instead of thinking about what was best for the town. This is a good point and it can happen. A townie getting lynched is obviously unfortunate but a great deal of information can be gained as a result of that lynch. Who gave proper reasons for their vote and who just jumped on the bandwagon? Did anyone make an effort to push another lynch target and if they did who tried to stop it? Was anyone else in danger of being lynched at any time and who tipped the balance over to the townie? > [@](#): > > Whatever we do, let’s avoid early pile-on landslides. We win as the town, right? Not as individuals? Carelessly tossing out early lynch votes plays straight in to the wolves’ hands. Instead, we should be forming sensible voting blocs against those who show genuine discrepancies and inconsistencies. Yes we do win as the town but see my points above. The votes cast so far you’ll find aren’t careless for the most part. They may be intended to be temporary but they’re by no means careless. We’re not playing into scum hands by doing this. We still have the power to unvote/vote somebody else. We still are able to read and analyse future posts and votes by other players and make our minds up accordingly. > [@](#): > > As a newbie, one thing has occurred to me: > > What if all of us townies agreed to withhold our lynch votes until the last 24 earth hours of the game Day? We immediately fire our lynch votes, _and lock them in_, at the first person to break the rule. Even if the first lynch turns up townie, the lesson will be learned and the mistake will not be repeated. This will allow us to successfully gain control of _when_ the wolves can vote, stifling their ability to cause the early pile-on nonsense from the Split game. > > Another thing: Assuming we went with the above strategy, what if us townies all agreed to have made our lynch vote decision _prior_ to the last 24 earth hours of the game Day? We all then stick with our vote, _no matter what_ pile-on nonsense is developing in the thread. One of two things will then happen: > > \*\*\* A townie gets lynched\*\* > > - The wolves, knowing that the townie votes will probably be split across many people, vote as a bloc to kill off a townie, or: > - Individual townies, acting independently of each other, all wrongly identify an innocent townie as a wolf. > > I think option 2 is unlikely, and we can then focus our suspicion on those who voted to lynch the townie. > > \*\*\* A wolf gets lynched\*\* > > - Success! > > Is there any sense in my strategy? Or are these types of wild ideas just common but long-discredited newbie attempts at intelligent Mafia strategy? I can see why you had this idea but it’s a really bad one as has already been stated. And it _ **is** _ playing into scum hands. Scum won’t have to wait till the last minute to put down their votes. They’ll have spent the last few days building cases against the person/people they want lynched so they can vote whenever during the last 24 hours and there’s a very good chance they’ll have swayed at least a few town members to vote with them. By leaving things till the last minute and locking the votes you’re prohibiting that town member from defending themself. People should vote for who they find most scummy. There are very few exceptions to that. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is if it’s near the end of the Day. The person you think is scum only has a vote from you and you haven’t managed to persuade anyone else to vote with you. The votes between two players are very close and you’re almost certain one of them is town and far less sure about the other one. In that situation then, yes, it’s fair enough to move your vote to save the one you think is town but otherwise you should seriously try to vote for the scummiest - give reasons - don’t give up pushing it even if everyone’s ignoring you - be a pain in the arse till they listen! ---
**Author:** ![\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/eada6e/32.png) [@\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Undecided_Adrian)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/231 "2009-03-15T11:18:22Z")
Hi everyone, sorry that I didn’t join the conversation yesterday, I needed to be out and about unexpectedly. I didn’t see much to go on, which is only natural, except for two things: - **straggler’s** forced last-minute-lynch proposal, which is a bad idea for the reasons **paulwhoisaghost** gave in post #228. I’m inclined to believe that this was a rookie mistake, though, mainly because I just saw the **Seeker** debacle in the The Split game. - **ok11’s** accusations against **MentalGuy**. He didn’t claim the scum were wolves, that was in the post he quoted, and that scum can talk during the day is the only explanation of the rule change (especially the given reason) that makes sense. See **Hero From Sector 7G’s** post #221, which came after **ok11’s** post, to be fair. **pedescribe** and **Almost Human** posted after that, though, and seem to be eager to get a pile-on going. Therefore I’m voting for the last to pile on: **vote Almost Human** It would be a good idea to get a first vote overview, I think. **sachertorte, how often will you do that in this game?** Or should I do the work myself? ---
**Author:** ![BillMC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@BillMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BillMC)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/232 "2009-03-15T11:25:59Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > _snip_ > > The lynchee gets no chance to defend themselves. This is a strength of the tactic, not a flaw. > > _snip_ > > If we force people to cast their vote in the last 24 earth hours of game Day, there’s simply not enough time for the scum to co-ordinate their voting strategy around the existing votes. Even if, by some chance, they do have the time, how obvious is it going to look when the same group of players are constantly amongst the last to put their vote in? Co-ordinate their voting - does this not imply that the Scum therefore have the ability to talk during the day? Now in conjunction with the previous diatribe between **Straggler** and **MentalGuy** on wolves and scum talking during the day: [ul] [li]#209 **Straggler** raises the subject of Wolves[/li][li]#212 **MentalGuy** continues the them of Wolves, says they can talk during the day and pretty much FOS’s **Staggler** [/li][li]#215 **ok11** votes **MentalGuy** for #212 as PIS[/li][li]#216 **Straggler** answer’s #215[/li][li]#218 **Natlaw** questions why ok11’s vote was on \*\*mentalguy/b] not **straggler** [/li][li]#219 **ok11** clarifies saying his vote is for talking during the day statement, not wolves[/li][li]#222 **staggler** claims an error and didn’t know “scum” is the generic name for the non-town faction, not “wolves”.[/li][li]#223 **pede** votes **mentalguy** for #215[/li][li]#225 **MentalGuy** explains why he thought “wolves” and scum day talk[/li][/ul] looks very suspicious. Both **MentalGuy** and **Straggler** have suggested the scum are talking during the day, and **Stragglers** _“The lynchee gets no chance to defend themselves. This is a strength of the tactic, not a flaw”_ is just so unbelievably anti-town. **Vote Straggler** ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/233 "2009-03-15T11:52:14Z")
> [@'\[Undecided](#): > > Adrian;10938136’]Hi everyone, sorry that I didn’t join the conversation yesterday, I needed to be out and about unexpectedly. > > I didn’t see much to go on, which is only natural, except for two things: > > - **straggler’s** forced last-minute-lynch proposal, which is a bad idea for the reasons **paulwhoisaghost** gave in post #228. I’m inclined to believe that this was a rookie mistake, though, mainly because I just saw the **Seeker** debacle in the The Split game. > > - **ok11’s** accusations against **MentalGuy**. He didn’t claim the scum were wolves, that was in the post he quoted, and that scum can talk during the day is the only explanation of the rule change (especially the given reason) that makes sense. See **Hero From Sector 7G’s** post #221, which came after **ok11’s** post, to be fair. > **pedescribe** and **Almost Human** posted after that, though, and seem to be eager to get a pile-on going. > > Therefore I’m voting for the last to pile on: > **vote Almost Human** > > It would be a good idea to get a first vote overview, I think. > **sachertorte, how often will you do that in this game?** > Or should I do the work myself? Can you summarize the “\*\*seeker \*\*debacle” for those of us not in that game? ---
**Author:** ![Almost\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@Almost\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Almost_Human)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/234 "2009-03-15T11:53:46Z")
> [@Almost\_Human](#): > > The possibility of scum talking during the Day has already been discussed so you should really have known it wasn’t a fact. > > It’s a pretty good reason for a Day 1 vote for the time being. > > **vote MentalGuy** This is what I actually said. Hey look - no mention of wolves! > [@'\[Undecided](#): > > Adrian;10938136’]Hi everyone, sorry that I didn’t join the conversation yesterday, I needed to be out and about unexpectedly. > > I didn’t see much to go on, which is only natural, except for two things: > > - **straggler’s** forced last-minute-lynch proposal, which is a bad idea for the reasons **paulwhoisaghost** gave in post #228. I’m inclined to believe that this was a rookie mistake, though, mainly because I just saw the **Seeker** debacle in the The Split game. > > - **ok11’s** accusations against **MentalGuy**. He didn’t claim the scum were wolves, that was in the post he quoted, and that scum can talk during the day is the only explanation of the rule change (especially the given reason) that makes sense. See **Hero From Sector 7G’s** post #221, which came after **ok11’s** post, to be fair. > **pedescribe** and **Almost Human** posted after that, though, and seem to be eager to get a pile-on going. > > Therefore I’m voting for the last to pile on: > **vote Almost Human** > > It would be a good idea to get a first vote overview, I think. > **sachertorte, how often will you do that in this game?** > Or should I do the work myself? Firstly, the mention of wolves wasn’t part of the reason for my vote so thanks for misrepresenting me there. Secondly, _ **why** _ is that the only explanation (that scum talk during the Day)? It’s certainly _ **an** _ explanation but could just as easily mean there’s some other scenario in play or even that sachertorte is WiFOMing the crap out of us. I don’t make assumptions and I’m suspicious of anyone who does. Anyone who exhibits possible PIS (perfect information syndrome) is going to be on my radar hence my vote for Mentalguy. And everyone’s a potential scum till they’re dead. ---
**Author:** ![rexnervous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@rexnervous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rexnervous)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/235 "2009-03-15T11:54:10Z")
> [@'\[Undecided](#): > > Adrian;10938136’]Hi everyone, sorry that I didn’t join the conversation yesterday, I needed to be out and about unexpectedly. > > I didn’t see much to go on, which is only natural, except for two things: > > - **ok11’s** accusations against **MentalGuy**. He didn’t claim the scum were wolves, that was in the post he quoted, and that scum can talk during the day is the only explanation of the rule change (especially the given reason) that makes sense. See **Hero From Sector 7G’s** post #221, which came after **ok11’s** post, to be fair. > **pedescribe** and **Almost Human** posted after that, though, and seem to be eager to get a pile-on going. > > Therefore I’m voting for the last to pile on: > **vote Almost Human** And this to me reads like a defense of **MentalGuy**. Let’s look at the \*\*MentalGuy \*\*sequence. 1. \*\*Sachertorte \*\*[amends](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10934529&postcount=163)rules 2. \*\*ok11 \*\*[posts](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10935104&postcount=174)his explanation of what the rules mean vis-a-vis the rule amendment. This includes 3 very valid potential options, one of them mentioning Masons 3. \*\*MentalGuy \*\*makes a [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10936464&postcount=196)about Masons (!) 4. \*\*MentalGuy \*\*makes another [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10936464&postcount=197)about Masons (!) 5. \*\*ok11 \*\*[answers](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10936464&postcount=198)MentalGuy about Masons (!) Do you see a trend yet - the talk is about Masons. Not wolves, not wolves talking during the Day. Masons, who according to [mafiascum.net](http://mafiascum.net) wiki, are [allowed to talk at Night](http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Mason). In other words, one of the reasons \*\*ok11 \*\*mentioned why \*\*Sachertorte \*\* amended the rules. Not only that, but \*\*MentalGuy \*\*specifically talks about Masons communicating with each other 1. \*\*MentalGuy \*\*then makes his [information slip.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10936996&postcount=212) He goes from talking about Masons to “wolves can talk during the Day.” Statement, no qualification. 2. \*\*ok11 \*\*[catches](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10936996&postcount=215) him on it So, prior to his slip, \*\*MentalGuy \*\*talks about Masons and their ability to communicate secretly, but then in his slip asserts that Wolves talk to each other during the Day. The more I see this, the more I am certain it was a true info slip. And that you are trying to point the spotlight elsewhere, and are defending **MentalGuy**. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/236 "2009-03-15T11:57:50Z")
> [@BillMC](#): > > … **Stragglers** _“The lynchee gets no chance to defend themselves. This is a strength of the tactic, not a flaw”_ is just so unbelievably anti-town. yeah, isn’t it anti-town? So anti-town that we might think “Scum would never do that.” ;-D If I had to guess, I’d say he might have played in a game where some Scum talked his way out of a lynch. So he came up with a plan to avoid that. Unfortunately, it takes away a powerful tool that the Town uses, discussion. [@Everyone](https://boards.straightdope.com/groups/everyone), we’re starting to get more and more data now. I’m thinking most of it won’t prove useful in the long run, but it’s all we have to decide on a course of action. A re-read or two as the Day goes on might not be a bad thing. Relying on only your memory can lead to errors (especially if you’re playing in multiple games on multiple sites which are visually presented in identical manners) ---
**Author:** ![willthekittensurvive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@willthekittensurvive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/willthekittensurvive)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/237 "2009-03-15T12:39:09Z")
Okay more data does not help, Is mental guy a suspect because he used the name wolves instead of scum? or because he stated that the scum can talk during the day? ---
**Author:** ![\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/eada6e/32.png) [@\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Undecided_Adrian)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/238 "2009-03-15T12:44:52Z")
**AH, rexnervous** - Yes I did defend of **MentalGuy** , since I think your reasoning wasn’t sound and forms no basis for a pile-on. **AH** , I was saying that **ok11** talked about the scum=wolves “tell”, and you piled on; where was there any misrepresentation? And what do you think this could mean: [QUOTE=given reason] The discrepancy is in the off-board communications. I copied the rules from Simpletown which restricted scum talk to Night only. The rules do not make that stipulation in not-so-simple Simpletown, for various not-so-simple reasons. [/QUOTE] Except that scum can talk during the day? I have gone from 100% sure to 95% sure, ok, but I still believe that **MentalGuy** was right and at the least very justified in thinking like this. **rexnervous** , do you think **MentalGuy** is scum, or a mason? I can’t follow you there. ---
**Author:** ![\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/eada6e/32.png) [@\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Undecided_Adrian)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/239 "2009-03-15T12:51:20Z")
**special ed** , the **Seeker** debacle was that as a vanilla townie, he claimed wolf on the third day because he thought that this would stir the wolves up and reveal clues. At the same time he thought he could convince us not to use the werewolf tester on him, since that meant we would lose a chance to figure out the color code. Of course that plan backfired spectacularly, and he was tested and lynched even after he said that he lied. ---
**Author:** ![rexnervous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@rexnervous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rexnervous)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/240 "2009-03-15T13:05:04Z")
> [@'\[Undecided](#): > > Adrian;10938195’] **AH, rexnervous** - Yes I did defend of **MentalGuy** , since I think your reasoning wasn’t sound and forms no basis for a pile-on. > > **AH** , I was saying that **ok11** talked about the scum=wolves “tell”, and you piled on; where was there any misrepresentation? > > And what do you think this could mean: > > Except that scum can talk during the day? > > I have gone from 100% sure to 95% sure, ok, but I still believe that **MentalGuy** was right and at the least very justified in thinking like this. > > **rexnervous** , do you think **MentalGuy** is scum, or a mason? I can’t follow you there. UA…you ask what this could mean > [@](#): > > The discrepancy is in the off-board communications. I copied the rules from Simpletown which restricted scum talk to Night only. The rules do not make that stipulation in not-so-simple Simpletown, for various not-so-simple reasons. and ok11 answered that > [@ok11](#): > > The modified rules hint at a secret communication twist. It could be something that helps one (or more) of the following groups: > • scum e.g. scum can talk during the Day > • town e.g. masons can communicate > • third parties (if we have any) e.g. there could be an additional fraction, or a competition between PFKs (like in Evil Dead mafia) > Or it could be a red herring, though that’s unlikely because in that case **sachertorte** probably wouldn’t have re-posted the rules. > > This type of twist can make things a lot more complicated (and interesting), because if some subset of players gets to secretly communicate, then they might be able to pull off more elaborate strategies. So I’ll be on the lookout for (IOW, even more paranoid about) people working together, and perfect information slips. I’m not sure what you’re missing here. IIRC you and I were both newbies in the Werewolf game, and this is much more complicated than that, but **ok11** ’s explanation of the rules change seems spot on. We were given no info on why the rule change, and \*\*ok11 \*\*gives us reasons why, without leaning towards any one choice. To my mind, they all seem equally valid…but maybe people with more than .25 game experience like me can tell us if his reasoning is ok. (no pun intended 🙂 ) As far as what I think MentalGuy is - sorry if I wasn’t clear. I don’t think the use of “wolves” is any kind of slip - as others have also stated, I defaulted to thinking of the scum as wolves. Primarily due to the werewolf game. So I buy his explanation there. But I think he’s scum. His “perfect information slip” tells us that wolves (scum) talk during the day - something at this point only a wolf would know. While it could be a newbie mistake, the manner in which it was done (which I outlined in my prior post) does not lend to that thinking. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592.md?page=13)