# Mafia: Not-so-simple-Simpletown **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 6, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592 "2009-03-06T22:58:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/381 "2009-03-17T17:38:08Z")
> [@willthekittensurvive](#): > > wouldn’t an anti town player just keep his mouth shut and vote? Parroting someone else’s analysis _IS_ the same thing as keeping your mouth shut, in a bandwagon you don’t add information you just add your vote. If the bandwagon lynch turns out to be town you can say “hey, not my fault, I was convinced by the other players.” You said this was your first online game, if I believe you then I am not sure if what you wrote was caused by a townie inadvertently reeking of ‘scum tell’ or you are scum who simply screwed the pooch. I’ll think on it. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/382 "2009-03-17T17:49:51Z")
> [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](#): > > **Is a vote of Me not valid?** Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/383 "2009-03-17T18:11:21Z")
> [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](#): > > The thing with play styles is you can pick up on changes in them. People often develop a certain way of posting, of commenting, voting etc, when they play a specific side repeatedly. If they then start posting in a different way, that can indicate to someone that they have changed sides. It’s not enough in and of itself, since people can change over time, or they can be like Blam and make it a point to change up regularly. But it is something to look out for. I thought metagaming was frowned on in Mafia. > [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](#): > > Sitnam, lynching the loud isn’t just a Day 1 issue. The more people post, the more likely they are to screw up somewhere, make a mistake, whatever. I didn’t say it was only a Day 1 issue, I just think with so little information it’s practically a given. I agree wholeheartedly with the second sentence which is why I don’t understand your reasoning here: > [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](#): > > But you’re wrong about the lurking thing. Let’s say for example there are 4 scum. In your average game, those 4 would be spread out over various posting levels. Sometimes they clump up, like the T2 game where pretty much all the scum were top posters, but in general they end up spread. And I for one generally give someone the benefit of the doubt if they claim an OOG reason for not posting. My reasoning is simple. This is a game, and if you’re willing to lie about OOG stuff in order to try and win, then I really don’t want to be playing with you. No one has a motive to lurk like scum, and no one can determine if that scum is lying about being too busy to post. Your personal feelings about that practice are irrelevant. > [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](#): > > Of course, I still think we’re better off assuming Day talking scum for the time being. I agree, and despite the ‘controversy’ surrounding it I’ve been operating under that assumption since the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook_of_the_North_Shore)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/384 "2009-03-17T19:03:55Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > Yes. Meh nevermind then. > [@Sitnam](#): > > I thought metagaming was frowned on in Mafia. Depends on the type of metagaming. What it comes down to in my mind is it’s ok to use completed games, in terms of things that happened in those games or playstyle differences from those games. But using an active game is not kosher, since it could end up having an effect on that game. > [@](#): > > \*\*No one has a motive to lurk like scum, and no one can determine if that scum is lying about being too busy to post. Your personal feelings about that practice are irrelevant. You’re wrong about that. In my experience, both town and scum lurk. Sometimes it makes sense for scum to lurk, and sometimes it doesn’t. I’m blanking on which game it was, but there was a game on here where scum won directly because their members were basically the opposite of lurkers. They were out in front and dominating the discussion. Lynch the lurkers is a tired, trite, lazy man’s way of playing Mafia. Clarify something for me please. Are you or are you not ok with scum lying about OOG reasons for lurking? And don’t brush it off by saying something trite like “Scum should never lie and make my job easier!” ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/385 "2009-03-17T19:27:01Z")
> [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](#): > > Clarify something for me please. Are you or are you not ok with scum lying about OOG reasons for lurking? And don’t brush it off by saying something trite like “Scum should never lie and make my job easier!” There is absolutely no way for me to ever tell if scum is lying about having OOG reasons for lurking, so how _I feel_ about it is also irrelevant. You don’t think lurking is necessarily a scum tell, fine, but scum or not, you can’t tell me lurking helps town. I’m assuming here OOG means ‘out of game’, if not, we may have a horrible misunderstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook_of_the_North_Shore)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/386 "2009-03-17T20:25:20Z")
No, it’s not irrelevent. But it tells me a lot about your mindset that you won’t committ to an answer. A bright line has to be drawn in the sand in the interests of an enjoyable and fair game of Mafia. This is where my line is drawn. Do not lie about OOG things. Yes, OOG is out of game. **Vote Sitnam** If a scum player wants to use my willingness to trust someone not to lie about OOG things, so be it. I truly wish that such a person enjoys the karma that is coming to them, because it will be fierce. That you aren’t willing to say either way is reason enough for me. As for lurking, I won’t give a bright line answer to that one. In general? Yes, it’s anti town. But in general doesn’t mean there won’t be times when it makes sense for someone to do it as Town, or have a good reason to do it. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/387 "2009-03-17T20:31:09Z")
I don’t have a whole lot to add to the existing dicussions, although I am enjoying watching **Nanook** finally take a blowtorch to **Sitnam** , who is still scrubbing up far too clean for my liking. I also echo **Hero** ’s call, in wanting to see **Seeker** come back and answer some charges. Your AWOL move right as the heat was getting turned up is reeking of scum. _Start yappin’_. List of Suspicion: \*\*\*special ed \*paulwhoisaghost _Sitnam [Undecided] Adrian_ List of Least Suspicion \ ***pleonast** ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/388 "2009-03-17T20:34:46Z")
> [@willthekittensurvive](#): > > hope I get past this round, but I still don’t get how we are supposed to find scum on the first round, wouldn’t an anti town player just keep his mouth shut and vote? > > willthekittensurvive? You can hope to make the next round, but you really aren’t helping yourself. Try to win the game, not to passively survive. If you don’t know how, just start with someone’s vote post and check out their arguments and post the result. Next step is to look for reasons to vote yourself. Even if you end up deciding to vote some based on someone else argument, at least you have shown to checked the reasons why. A random vote means rolling a dice (or going [random.org](http://random.org)) - adding your vote to the vote leader is quite the opposite. And as you note, you have not to defend yourself with either, because you didn’t post reasons for your voting. Since this is your first game, the reason why no lynch is bad, especially on Day One: -lynching scum is the only way for town to win (barring vigilante/serial killer doing the job - they are non scum roles who can kill at someone at Night). Even if town ends up lynching town, we get information in two ways: -the alignment and role of the lynched player -the vote record - who voted to town and who on scum (with the note that town will vote town and scum will vote scum, but in the end at least one scum must survive to win) That turned about a bit long, but I found the [post analysis](http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Category:How_to_Play) article is tagged TODO :rolleyes:. [This flash animation](http://www.sitesled.com/members/mikeburnfire/mafiascum04.swf) is pretty good introduction, but doesn’t tell much about how to find scum. > [@BillMC](#): > > At the risk of this degenerating into _Hamlet: Part Deux_, so in your eyes it is perfectly ok for the masses to rip an idea to shreds, deride it, rip its head off and crap down its neck, but to actually put a vote against it, is bad? I remember the _Hamlet_ game being advertised, but I didn’t follow it - executive summary of what happened in that game (assuming you are referring to it)? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/389 "2009-03-17T20:38:42Z")
It’s gotten quiet. Time to call out the lurkers. At the very least, all players should have a vote on whoever they think is most likely to be Scum. Don’t forget to explain why you think that person is most likely to be Scum. If you’re not sure, then you need to reread the thread until you form an opinion. Players who do not have any votes currently (I think I have this right): **pedescribe rexnervous peekercpa straggler MentalGuy Almost Human Batman Jenkems** Yes, we about two days left, but let’s not wait to the last minute. There’s plenty of material right now to base your vote on. You can always change your mind later. On preview–looks like we got a little more action… And **straggler** , I do not appreciate the death mark you just placed on me. ---
**Author:** ![Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hero_From_Sector_7G)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/390 "2009-03-17T20:57:04Z")
This game has a lot of people going out of their way to declare a best friend. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/391 "2009-03-17T20:57:22Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > And **straggler** , I do not appreciate the death mark you just placed on me. you don’t like him accusing people while snuggling with you? ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/392 "2009-03-17T21:02:22Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > And **straggler** , I do not appreciate the death mark you just placed on me. I’m flattered that you think I have so much influence over my fellow townies. Which if I do, I’ll be encouraging them to not vote for you (for now). Either way, you should have nothing to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/393 "2009-03-17T21:07:17Z")
> [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](#): > > This game has a lot of people going out of their way to declare a best friend. No kidding. We’ve got 2 1/2 teams running now at this rate we won’t need mods to divide us up anymore we’ll do it ourselves. I think people need to reevaluate their trusted list so that it only has one name on it. Its only thing to trust someone who has been proven town but the only people who have a reason to trust right now are the scum because they know who is on their team and who isn’t. I’d like everyone who has claimed a team or trust to put out reasons for why they trust someone so early in fact I think we should treat it like a vote to lynch with reasons given in the post. **Straggler, Adrian, Mental, Ed and Paul** I’m looking at you. **Pleo** you disavowed Straggler so I’m not looking for an explanation. Actually we’ve had explanation from Adrian, Mental Ed and Paul so I don’t think we need another I just didn’t want to be accused of leaving people out. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/394 "2009-03-17T21:07:20Z")
Blowtorch, yeah :rolleyes: [QUOTE=Nanook of the North Shore] Clarify something for me please. Are you or are you not ok with scum lying about OOG reasons for lurking? And don’t brush it off by saying something trite like “Scum should never lie and make my job easier!” [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Sitnam] There is absolutely no way for me to ever tell if scum is lying about having OOG reasons for lurking, so how I feel about it is also irrelevant. [/QUOTE] > [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](#): > > No, it’s not irrelevent. But it tells me a lot about your mindset that you won’t committ to an answer. Answer what? Do I like it when scum lies? Why didn’t you ask me if I like the color purple, or what my favorite ice cream topping is? ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/395 "2009-03-17T21:09:26Z")
1 - [Undecided] Adrian (Natlaw) 1 - BillMC (Pleonast) 1 - MentalGuy (ok11) 1 - Oredigger77 (Seeker of Truth and Beauty) 1 - Seeker of Truth and Beauty (Hero From Sector 7G) 1 - Sitnam (Nanook of the North Shore) 3 - willthekittensurvive? (special ed, [Undecided] Adrian, Oredigger77) 1 - peekercpa (Sitnam) 2 - straggler (BillMC, paulwhoisaghost) 1 - No Lynch (willthekittensurvive?) ---
**Author:** ![Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook_of_the_North_Shore)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/396 "2009-03-17T21:12:12Z")
Here, let me help you. I’ll answer both the question I actually asked you and the question you want to think I asked you. Do I think it’s ok if scum lie in general? Yes. This game would be really freaking boring if scum never lied. I expect them to do so, since that’s how they win. Do I think it’s ok if scum lie specifically about OOG issues? Absolutely not. Outside the game things should not be used as an in game tactic. It’s basically cheating to me. See? Was that so freaking hard? ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/397 "2009-03-17T21:14:24Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > I’d like everyone who has claimed a team or trust to put out reasons for why they trust someone so early in fact I think we should treat it like a vote to lynch with reasons given in the post. **Straggler, Adrian, Mental, Ed and Paul** I’m looking at you. While I’m at it, should I make recommendations for the scum on how they can best avoid getting on my scum radar? ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/398 "2009-03-17T21:17:45Z")
Also, to say I “trust” **pleo** or that he/she is on my “team” is going too far over the top. I have a list of those I am least suspicious of, and **pleo** is on it. That doesn’t mean I _trust_ them. ---
**Author:** ![Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hero_From_Sector_7G)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/399 "2009-03-17T21:21:12Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > List of Least Suspicion > \ ***pleonast** The point is, trusting anyone unconfirmed is stupid. Announcing such stupidity is either an exponential function of said stupidity or is done with a motive. The only people who have motives are scum. So which is it, Stupid Squared or Scum? ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/400 "2009-03-17T21:22:20Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > **Sitnam** is playing this game exactly the same way I would if I were scum. Every time I rub him with a cloth hoping to find some dirt, all I’m hearing are squeaky polishing noises. Not liking it. I read this as you tried to find an argument against him, but didn’t find it, so didn’t post anything. > [@straggler](#): > > I don’t have a whole lot to add to the existing dicussions, although I am enjoying watching **Nanook** finally take a blowtorch to **Sitnam** , who is still scrubbing up far too clean for my liking. The obvious question is: why didn’t you yourself is you were suspicious of him? Besides the post quoted above, I didn’t see any other post where you are ‘scrubbing’ him. > [@](#): > > List of Suspicion: > \*special ed > \*paulwhoisaghost > \*Sitnam > \*[Undecided] Adrian > > List of Least Suspicion > \*pleonast What are your reasons for having **Adrian** on your list? Others already asked about **Pleonast** , for clarification I don’t think he meant death mark as you trying to get him lynched by town, but that scum usually try to kill confirmed/trusted town (though power roles are priority targets, scum would have to gamble unless they got an investigator/some already claimed). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592.md?page=21)