# Mafia: Not-so-simple-Simpletown **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 6, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592 "2009-03-06T22:58:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/401 "2009-03-17T21:22:51Z")
> [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](#): > > The point is, trusting anyone unconfirmed is stupid. Announcing such stupidity is either an exponential function of said stupidity or is done with a motive. The only people who have motives are scum. > > So which is it, Stupid Squared or Scum? I do not _trust_ pleo. I am least suspicious of him/her. There is a difference. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/402 "2009-03-17T21:28:17Z")
> [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](#): > > So which is it, Stupid Squared or Scum? “Let’s try and keep things civil,” said the hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/403 "2009-03-17T21:34:10Z")
> [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](#): > > Here, let me help you. I’ll answer both the question I actually asked you and the question you want to think I asked you. > > Do I think it’s ok if scum lie in general? > > Yes. This game would be really freaking boring if scum never lied. I expect them to do so, since that’s how they win. > > Do I think it’s ok if scum lie specifically about OOG issues? > > Absolutely not. Outside the game things should not be used as an in game tactic. It’s basically cheating to me. > > See? Was that so freaking hard? You’re saying you trust grandma with the Monopoly bank while you get up and get a glass of water because if you didn’t the game wouldn’t be any fun to play. Alright. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/404 "2009-03-17T21:37:00Z")
> [@Natlaw](#): > > I read this as you tried to find an argument against him, but didn’t find it, so didn’t post anything. That’s basically correct, yes. > [@](#): > > The obvious question is: why didn’t you yourself is you were suspicious of him? Besides the post quoted above, I didn’t see any other post where you are ‘scrubbing’ him. I was mentally scrubbing him - not scrubbing, as in, making provocative posts about him. > [@](#): > > What are your reasons for having **Adrian** on your list? I didn’t like the way the **willthekittensurvive** pile-on thing happened. I think it would be (should be) unnatural for something like that to happen without some scummy influence. I re-read it a few times to try and figure out which way the scum could have best manipulated it, and Adrian’s name came to the top. That’s about as specific as I am going to get. If what happened to **willthekittensurvive** had happened to say, **pleo** , my vote almost certainly would have gone to **Adrian**. Until something changes, my level of suspicion at **Adrian** is going to be inverse to my level of suspicion of **willthekittensurvive**. > [@](#): > > Others already asked about **Pleonast** , for clarification I don’t think he meant death mark as you trying to get him lynched by town, but that scum usually try to kill confirmed/trusted town (though power roles are priority targets, scum would have to gamble unless they got an investigator/some already claimed). Well, again. If the scum are taking my council on who to go after, then this is a good thing for me, and I have no need to defend my actions. ---
**Author:** ![Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hero_From_Sector_7G)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/405 "2009-03-17T21:38:26Z")
Sorry **straggler**. I think your behavior is weird and it doesn’t make sense to me unless you are scum. However, in no manner did you deserve to be called stupid. I’m going to take a break and enjoy this beautiful weather. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/406 "2009-03-17T21:41:31Z")
> [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](#): > > _However, in no manner did you deserve to be called stupid_. We’re cool. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/407 "2009-03-17T21:57:19Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > While I’m at it, should I make recommendations for the scum on how they can best avoid getting on my scum radar? > [@straggler](#): > > Also, to say I “trust” **pleo** or that he/she is on my “team” is going too far over the top. I have a list of those I am least suspicious of, and **pleo** is on it. That doesn’t mean I _trust_ them. Gah, my brain is hurting. You and Kitten are doing the same thing. Laying out your suspicions or lack there of is not a bad thing. Explaining what Pleo has done for you not to be suspicious does not give scum a road map how to earn your trust unless you always trust people who do X, in which case that is worse then always mistrusting people who do Y. You explaining your actions give the town a chance to judge them so they can agree or not and allows us to find inconstancies in your motivation. Which is how we catch scum. > [@straggler](#): > > I didn’t like the way the **willthekittensurvive** pile-on thing happened. I think it would be (should be) unnatural for something like that to happen without some scummy influence. I re-read it a few times to try and figure out which way the scum could have best manipulated it, and Adrian’s name came to the top. That’s about as specific as I am going to get. How did Adrian manipulate the pile-on? I ask because I’m part of it and would like to know how I was manipulated so I can avoid it in the future. Just saying that someone is doing something scummy does not help the town to see it and if you don’t get people to agree with you it is impossible to build enough people for a lynch. I am assuming of course that you want to lynch the people who do scummy things. Just for the record straggler has moved into the number 2 spot on my scummy list and is only holding because Kitten seems to have disappeared to take the heat off. ---
**Author:** ![BillMC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@BillMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BillMC)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/408 "2009-03-17T22:02:02Z")
> [@Natlaw](#): > > I remember the _Hamlet_ game being advertised, but I didn’t follow it - executive summary of what happened in that game (assuming you are referring to it)? The long and the short of it is that Pleo and I had pretty much the same discussion, tho a little more heated. In retrospect all it really did was detract us from scum hunting, both of us were town, he got NK’d if I recall, and I got lynched after the town concluded my actual PM was fake. I agree discussion is good, tho being at the pointy end of an inquisition is probably more painful than getting a vote against you. But I’ll cede the point to Pleo and Nanook. Unvote Straggler ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/409 "2009-03-17T22:09:31Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > Gah, my brain is hurting. You and Kitten are doing the same thing. Laying out your suspicions or lack there of is not a bad thing. Explaining what Pleo has done for you not to be suspicious does not give scum a road map how to earn your trust unless WHAT?! This might be true if we’re at least midway through the game, when everyone has left enough of a track record that any changes in behaviour are obvious. But it’s not true now. > [@](#): > > you always trust people who do X, in which case that is worse then always mistrusting people who do Y. Why are you so determined to keep stating that I “trust” people in this game? If outright denials don’t satisfy you, what would? > [@](#): > > How did Adrian manipulate the pile-on? I ask because I’m part of it and would like to know how I was manipulated so I can avoid it in the future. It’s the first Day. I am not offering up my scum tell secrets, no matter how high up your scum list you want to elevate me. I divide my scum tells in to two categories: _General scum tells_: Tells that can be made by any scum, whether they be forced in to it, trapped in to it, etc. Pointing these out is of great benefit to the town. _Player-specific scum tells_: Much like poker, individual players give off specific, sub-conscious tells. These tells are not consistent from player to player. It makes no sense to reveal these to the _entire poker table_, which is what you are demanding I do. And it’s this type of tell that I am currently working on with **Adrian**. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/410 "2009-03-17T22:11:21Z")
> [@BillMC](#): > > Unvote Straggler Nice, thanks. _What’s the proper etiquette in this game when someone unvotes you?_ ---
**Author:** ![Almost\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@Almost\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Almost_Human)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/411 "2009-03-17T22:30:41Z")
OK I said I’d revote today so here goes. First part’s mostly been covered by Nanook. FTR I trust any player who gives an oog reason for absence. If they say they’ve been put on double shifts then I believe them. If they say nothing more than they’ve been busy then not so much though I won’t automatically think they’re lying either. I’m only repointing this part out because sitnam brought the subject up much earlier in the game so it may or may not be relevant to his subsequent back and forth with Nanook. > [@Sitnam](#): > > Really? I get the feeling town usually lynches the loud the first day, in the beginning it’s just too easy to sit in the shadows and lurk while occasionally posting stuff like, ‘I’ve been really busy the lasts couple of days guys, I’ll get into the game just as soon as I can’. THAT stuff isn’t acceptable to me, both cause it’s too easy for scum to hide with that and because I want even townies to show up and help. Not that you did any of that, just to answer the question ‘does random voting impel more useful dialogue?’…it seems to have worked for you. Anyway, that isn’t my primary reason for voting him. > [@Oredigger77](#): > > How did Adrian manipulate the pile-on? I ask because I’m part of it and would like to know how I was manipulated so I can avoid it in the future. Just saying that someone is doing something scummy does not help the town to see it and if you don’t get people to agree with you it is impossible to build enough people for a lynch. I am assuming of course that you want to lynch the people who do scummy things. I don’t think he did manipulate the pile-on. I think there was already suspicion against kitten before she voted for a no lynch and that this post may have spooked her into it. > [@Sitnam](#): > > Wow, this is not cool. This is what town does when they don’t trust their own judgment, or what scum does to hide their vote history. So which is it? To which she replies > [@willthekittensurvive](#): > > you’re right,I have no idea, no smoking guns, nothing to base a vote on, just posters making noise to make noise, and other posters trying to incriminate them on that. > > It was a cowards way out, so im starting a no lynch vote > > **unvote mental guy** > > **vote no lynch** > > can’t we all be friends? Then there are 3 votes for her in fairly quick sucession though none of them from sitnam who only says: > [@Sitnam](#): > > Parroting someone else’s analysis _IS_ the same thing as keeping your mouth shut, in a bandwagon you don’t add information you just add your vote. If the bandwagon lynch turns out to be town you can say “hey, not my fault, I was convinced by the other players.” > > You said this was your first online game, if I believe you then I am not sure if what you wrote was caused by a townie inadvertently reeking of ‘scum tell’ or you are scum who simply screwed the pooch. > > I’ll think on it. It’s an easy way to get a lynch started and come away with your hands clean. There are a couple of other minor points too. Quick vote/unvote of rex by [random.org](http://random.org) followed by a vote for peeker for being peeker. Neither vote has any bearing on the game itself. Also he totally didn’t get my sarcasm which offends me greatly on a personal level but I suppose I can’t base my vote on it. I can, however base it on everything else so **vote Sitnam** In other news. Regarding the willthekittensurvive votes. I agree her actions are completely anti town but it just feels like we’re kicking a, well a kitten. She may be scum I suppose but it feels more like a newbie wanting everyone to play nice. Remember it takes time to reach the level of downright nastiness most of us have got to. ---
**Author:** ![Almost\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@Almost\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Almost_Human)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/412 "2009-03-17T22:31:52Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Nice, thanks. > > _What’s the proper etiquette in this game when someone unvotes you?_ In this case ask them nicely to do it in the right colour so it actually counts! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/eada6e/32.png) [@\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Undecided_Adrian)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/413 "2009-03-17T22:40:54Z")
Hey, **MentalGuy** , please come here and defend me, I’m being attacked! (Just kidding 🙂 ) **straggler** , I don’t think you can convince other players if you don’t explain yourself. There _was_ a small pile-on going on with our three votes, but in my opinion it was much more justified than the one I argued against. I did the same thing I suspected **Almost Human** and **pedescribe** for, yes, but the respective argument deserves consideration. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/414 "2009-03-17T22:51:02Z")
> [@Almost\_Human](#): > > In this case ask them nicely to do it in the right colour so it actually counts! 😃 Good get! (asks nicely) **BillMC**.. please put it in red! ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/415 "2009-03-17T22:52:22Z")
> [@'\[Undecided](#): > > Adrian;10946403’] **straggler** , I don’t think you can convince other players if you don’t explain yourself. Hahahahaha. Aaahhhh ha ha ha ha ah ha!!! Hahahahahahaha. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/416 "2009-03-17T22:56:38Z")
Might as well make my vote count. **Sitnam** is the only one on my List of Suspicion who looks to be any chance of getting lynched. As for the other 3 on my list -\> tread carefully, this vote for **Sitnam** is yours to gain. **vote Sitnam** ---
**Author:** ![Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook_of_the_North_Shore)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/417 "2009-03-17T23:07:59Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > You’re saying you trust grandma with the Monopoly bank while you get up and get a glass of water because if you didn’t the game wouldn’t be any fun to play. > > Alright. In a non-competitive, sit down and have some fun with my grandma game of monopoly? Yes I would. And if you don’t, I feel very sorry for you. I note you still haven’t really answered me. > [@straggler](#): > > Hahahahaha. > > Aaahhhh ha ha ha ha ah ha!!! > > Hahahahahahaha. What exactly is that supposed to mean? You do realize this is a team game right? (Barring PFKs and Third Parties. If you want to admit to being one of those, feel free.) ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/418 "2009-03-17T23:14:36Z")
> [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](#): > > What exactly is that supposed to mean? You do realize this is a team game right? (Barring PFKs and Third Parties. If you want to admit to being one of those, feel free.) The player who I am suggesting I have a player-specific tell on, is attempting to encourage me to spill the beans on that tell, because otherwise no one else will believe me. On my list of players whom I am most likely to listen to on whether I should publicly announce the tell, _the player whom the tell relates to_ is pretty close to the bottom. ---
**Author:** ![BillMC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@BillMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BillMC)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/419 "2009-03-17T23:15:35Z")
> [@Almost\_Human](#): > > In this case ask them nicely to do it in the right colour so it actually counts! 😃 At least someone was paying attention 😃 > [@straggler](#): > > Good get! > > (asks nicely) > > **BillMC**.. please put it in red! Unvote Straggler ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/420 "2009-03-17T23:15:37Z")
And what’s a BFK/Third Party? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592.md?page=22)