# Mafia: Not-so-simple-Simpletown **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 6, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592 "2009-03-06T22:58:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/421 "2009-03-17T23:16:37Z")
> [@BillMC](#): > > At least someone was paying attention šŸ˜ƒ > Unvote Straggler Many thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook_of_the_North_Shore)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/422 "2009-03-17T23:26:58Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > And whatā€™s a BFK/Third Party? PFK, short for Playing for Keeps. Originally coined in the Batman game at Idleā€™s site. It originally referred to anyone that was neither town nor scum. It has since been refined, for the most part, to refer to people that are neither town nor scum that can prevent them from winning. This is different from third party, which is also not town or scum, but cannot prevent them from winning. In classical Mafia role terms, a Serial Killer(SK) would generally be considered a PFK, whereas a Survivor that can win with either side would be considered a Third Party. > [@](#): > > The player who I am suggesting I have a player-specific tell on, is attempting to encourage me to spill the beans on that tell, because otherwise no one else will believe me. > > On my list of players whom I am most likely to listen to on whether I should publicly announce the tell, the player whom the tell relates to is pretty close to the bottom. I can understand your through process here, sort of. But it doesnā€™t help the rest of the town in any way, shape, or form for you to withhold information that you feel is useful. This isnā€™t poker, not everyone is out to get you. (Unless, again, youā€™re PFK.) What youā€™re doing here is whatā€™s often referred to as a magic bag, though not exactly a magic bag. (For reference, a magic bag is saying something along the lines of ā€œI have important information! Iā€™ll tell you all Tomorrow.ā€) The danger of magic bagging, if you are telling the truth, is that you can and possibly will be killed overNight to stop you from opening your bag. Itā€™s also used occasionally by scum in an effort to forestall a lynch and/or Vig kill. Neither of those cases are good for Town, so it is best to just spill your magic bag immediately. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/423 "2009-03-17T23:30:29Z")
> [@Almost\_Human](#): > > Sach, you seem like a sensible, logical chap. Friendly word of adviceā€¦DONā€™T JOIN FACEBOOK! Itā€™ll turn you into a snarling, axe weilding psychopath - seriously. > > Really? You donā€™t find anything else scummy toDay so youā€™re voting for someone because you donā€™t like the way he posts? > > Weā€™ve got the ā€œI know sach didnā€™t actually say scum could talk during the Day but I think thatā€™s what he meant so it must be trueā€ debate > > The ā€œLetā€™s not vote till thereā€™s only 24 hours left in the game - thatā€™ll bugger scum upā€ theory and subsequent responses. > > Even the ā€œCurious case of the extra mislynches calculationā€ is surely more worthy than the reasoning youā€™ve given for a vote. And as usual. Here we go again. **ah** , no worries. There is a subset of players that for whatever reason donā€™t like me. Crud, I could be handing out cash and they would still shirk. Itā€™s actually kind of condemning, however. My old style is markedly different than my new style. But people read what they wanna read. If you look at my substance to noise ratios itā€™s actually better than a lot. But because some folks already have a preconceived notion there is nada to be done about it. Canā€™t change prejudice, especially if there is an agenda behind it. **Sinjin** , you wanna do a real analysis of what I post as opposed to others or are you content to just bullshit a vote? Yaknow, you kind of brought it up. So are there any facts or are you just stirring the pot on old shit? I am really awaiting the reponse to this puppy. If nothing else it gives a purported analysis of my Day posts as opposed to other players and whether there is something measuarable or whether it is just bias. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/424 "2009-03-17T23:44:00Z")
> [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](#): > > PFK, short for Playing for Keeps. Originally coined in the Batman game at Idleā€™s site. It originally referred to anyone that was neither town nor scum. It has since been refined, for the most part, to refer to people that are neither town nor scum that can prevent them from winning. This is different from third party, which is also not town or scum, but cannot prevent them from winning. In classical Mafia role terms, a Serial Killer(SK) would generally be considered a PFK, whereas a Survivor that can win with either side would be considered a Third Party. Just to clarify: There could be ā€œlone rangersā€ (PFK) in this game who win by themselves, they are neither town nor scum? > [@](#): > > I can understand your through process here, sort of. But it doesnā€™t help the rest of the town in any way, shape, or form for you to withhold information that you feel is useful. This isnā€™t poker, not everyone is out to get you. (Unless, again, youā€™re PFK.) What youā€™re doing here is whatā€™s often referred to as a magic bag, though not exactly a magic bag. (For reference, a magic bag is saying something along the lines of ā€œI have important information! Iā€™ll tell you all Tomorrow.ā€) The danger of magic bagging, if you are telling the truth, is that you can and possibly will be killed overNight to stop you from opening your bag. Itā€™s also used occasionally by scum in an effort to forestall a lynch and/or Vig kill. Neither of those cases are good for Town, so it is best to just spill your magic bag immediately. Ok, I can see some merit in this. I take it that if I die, I _canā€™t_ come back and announce to the board what my thinking was? ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/425 "2009-03-17T23:45:06Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > **Sinjin** , you wanna do a real analysis of what I post as opposed to others or are you content to just bullshit a vote? Um, _who?_ ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/426 "2009-03-17T23:56:22Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Yes! That is exactly what Iā€™m suggesting! > > The Town needs to have discussion to 1) come up with the best ideas to win and 2) catch Scum via slips or anti-Town motivation. In order to have discussion, we need players to post. If players have to second-guess everything they think of, then we might lose that one brilliant idea that sounds crazy but would actually be hugely helpful to us in the current game. So we really, really do want players to openly and freely post their ideas. \ Liar. You only want discussion that you control you already have admitted that you vigged my ass in a previous game, not because I was scum, but because you didnā€™t like the way I posted and the ideas I suggested. This is so freaking lame. Town have caught scum in inconsistencies a couple of times during fluff. So, donā€™t fluff unless the **Pleo** kings allows, and FCS donā€™t post if it is different than what **pleo** would like. Truly absurd. Yaknow, Iā€™ll toss the same challenge down to you. Take the posts, categorize them and then give me an auditable percentage. **Unvote[/color** **[color=blue]Vote Pleo** ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/427 "2009-03-18T00:15:09Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Blowtorch, yeah :rolleyes: > > Answer what? Do I like it when scum lies? Why didnā€™t you ask me if I like the color purple, or what my favorite ice cream topping is? Ok, Iā€™ll take a stab. Nope and never would. Iā€™ll make up stuff about the current players and lie like a mofo. But when I travel, I travel. I try to err on the side of caution, however. Iā€™ve had connecting flights where I honestly did not think that I would be able to tap in. But then you get laid in IAH and I might be more available than if I were home. So, nope on the peek end regarding made up rl. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/428 "2009-03-18T00:28:48Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > There is absolutely no way for me to ever tell if scum is lying about having OOG reasons for lurking, so how _I feel_ about it is also irrelevant. You donā€™t think lurking is necessarily a scum tell, fine, but scum or not, you canā€™t tell me lurking helps town. > > Iā€™m assuming here OOG means ā€˜out of gameā€™, if not, we may have a horrible misunderstanding. Actually, it is. It tells us whether youā€™re a cutthroat min-maxer or a laid-back role player. Given your later response: > [@Sitnam](#): > > Youā€™re saying you trust grandma with the Monopoly bank while you get up and get a glass of water because if you didnā€™t the game wouldnā€™t be any fun to play. > > Alright. Iā€™m going with the former. > [@BillMC](#): > > The long and the short of it is that Pleo and I had pretty much the same discussion, tho a little more heated. In retrospect all it really did was detract us from scum hunting, both of us were town, he got NKā€™d if I recall, and I got lynched after the town concluded my actual PM was fake. > > I agree discussion is good, tho being at the pointy end of an inquisition is probably more painful than getting a vote against you. > > But Iā€™ll cede the point to Pleo and Nanook. > > Unvote Straggler Iā€™m still sorry about that, incidentally. > [@straggler](#): > > Just to clarify: There could be ā€œlone rangersā€ (PFK) in this game who win by themselves, they are neither town nor scum? > Ok, I can see some merit in this. I take it that if I die, I _canā€™t_ come back and announce to the board what my thinking was? No, you canā€™t. After you die, you canā€™t post in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/429 "2009-03-18T00:42:17Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > Um, _who?_ Sorry, our new version of BB software has the ā€œhelpfulā€ functionalty of a fill in option. **Sinjin** shoud be **Sitnam**. If you need some help I can certainly re post. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/430 "2009-03-18T00:51:49Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > No kidding. Weā€™ve got 2 1/2 teams running now at this rate we wonā€™t need mods to divide us up anymore weā€™ll do it ourselves. > > I think people need to reevaluate their trusted list so that it only has one name on it. Its only thing to trust someone who has been proven town but the only people who have a reason to trust right now are the scum because they know who is on their team and who isnā€™t. > > Iā€™d like everyone who has claimed a team or trust to put out reasons for why they trust someone so early in fact I think we should treat it like a vote to lynch with reasons given in the post. **Straggler, Adrian, Mental, Ed and Paul** Iā€™m looking at you. **Pleo** you disavowed Straggler so Iā€™m not looking for an explanation. Actually weā€™ve had explanation from Adrian, Mental Ed and Paul so I donā€™t think we need another I just didnā€™t want to be accused of leaving people out. Please show me a post where I said I was on a team with anyone. I argued along with a few players against **straggler** ā€™s strategy. Those players included **paul, bill, almost, pleo,** and **peeker**. because I responded to stragglerā€™s comment to **paul** , people think Iā€™ve aligned myself with **paul**. The only thing Iā€™ll grant \*\*paul \*\*is that heā€™s correct in thinking **straggler** ā€™s strategy was very poor. Again, as the accusations continue, please show me where I aligned myself with paul. I think you got over zealous in pursuing this after **mental guy** and \*\*Adrian \*\*both actually said they were teamed up. Thereā€™s a difference between agreeing with someone and aligning yourself with someone. So, please present the evidence when youā€™re making this accusation. ---
**Author:** ![MentalGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MentalGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MentalGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/431 "2009-03-18T00:56:02Z")
I am having a hard time deciding who to vote for. Batman is absent until the seventh page, then shows up to vote for someone not in the game. willthekittensurvive? seems like he is trying to avoid confrontation, which seems like something a relatively inexperienced scum would do. special ed and paulwhoisaghost seem a bit too coordinated in their arguments, but also a bit too obvious. I am suspicious of the three who originally voted against me(ok11, Almost Human, and pedescribe) because it seemed if someone was trying to get a pile-on started. Two of them have since rescinded their votes, but they may have just realized their argument against me wasnā€™t gaining much traction. I am tempted to vote for Batman for his absence and his weirdness, but I honestly donā€™t know what they imply. So while I donā€™t have a great deal of commitment behind it I will **Vote willthekittensurvive?** because he (she?) does seem to me the most likely to be scum. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/432 "2009-03-18T00:56:33Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > I didnā€™t like the way the **willthekittensurvive** pile-on thing happened. I think it would be (should be) unnatural for something like that to happen without some scummy influence. I re-read it a few times to try and figure out which way the scum could have best manipulated it, and Adrianā€™s name came to the top. Thatā€™s about as specific as I am going to get. In what way did **adrian** ā€™s name come to the top? How can you assess a situation, say itā€™s scummy, but have no evidence or reasons for it being scummy. Remember, your job as Town is to find scum and convince other Town youā€™ve found Scum. Iā€™m not about to trust you that itā€™s a scummy situation just because you say so. Please tell me _why_ itā€™s scummy. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/433 "2009-03-18T01:03:40Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > The player who I am suggesting I have a player-specific tell on, is attempting to encourage me to spill the beans on that tell, because otherwise no one else will believe me. > > On my list of players whom I am most likely to listen to on whether I should publicly announce the tell, _the player whom the tell relates to_ is pretty close to the bottom. **peeker** , can you translate this into peekish so I can understand it? ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/434 "2009-03-18T01:31:31Z")
Ok, **ed** you had me and then you lost me. Iā€™ve already said my peace. There are those that manufacture and those that support that manufacturing. I can not do anything against bias. People refer to the past and try to extrapolate to the present. That, also, I can not help. Agendas are what they are. We have players that have freely admitted that in the past that they will not act in the townā€™s best interest because they have a personal agenda. Meh, kind of a cruddy way to play. Thatā€™s kind of the definition of someone I would like to eliminate. And **dogmom** brought this up on the giraffe board and I totally disagree. She seems to want it to be clean slate each encounter. Not so clear for me. I think that history impacts the present. Off of soapbox I go. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/435 "2009-03-18T01:44:51Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > Ok, **ed** you had me and then you lost me. better to have loved and lost than never to have loved ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/436 "2009-03-18T01:59:43Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > **peeker** , can you translate this into peekish so I can understand it? Only, cause I owe you. Got a magic bag or something Got a read (doubtful) on game play or a PM (possible) on alignment. Thatā€™s about it. I can make it more convolutedā€¦ But. This lady I hired from Michigan always talks about their favorite Mexican food restaurant in Detroit. **Chi Chiā€™s** Of course in SoTex chi chi is tit. She carries on about how her husband loves chi chiā€™s and how ā€œherā€ chi chiā€™s are the best in all of Detroit. I just kind of grin. She had her birthday party today and was talking about chi chiā€™s. The girls in billing were aghast. They "splained to her and her comment was along the lines of, ā€œOMG do you think Phil and the rest of leadership know?ā€ Of, fucking, course. Great hilarity ensued. Oh, and just so you donā€™t think I am more oinkish than necessary. I am in an office of three males and approximately 70 females. The ladies were lauighing and having a good time. I took the other guys outside to have a smoke. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/437 "2009-03-18T02:16:04Z")
_(Given that youā€™re clearly posting while under the influence):_ Hey, **peeker** , what role are you in this game? ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/438 "2009-03-18T02:17:26Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > better to have loved and lost than never to have loved This is so wrong on so many levels. But thatā€™s otay. We get to wait for \*\*Pleo[/b and **sitnam** on their analysis. I am really looking forward to it. And how they take various folksā€™ post and categorize them. Hey, they are the prosecutors. Theyā€™ve got to make the case. Shoot they have already stated it, so shouldnā€™t be no big thing to justify it. Any update, fellers? ---
**Author:** ![rexnervous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@rexnervous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rexnervous)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/439 "2009-03-18T02:25:40Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Itā€™s gotten quiet. Time to call out the lurkers. At the very least, all players should have a vote on whoever they think is most likely to be Scum. Donā€™t forget to explain why you think that person is most likely to be Scum. If youā€™re not sure, then you need to reread the thread until you form an opinion. > > Players who do not have any votes currently (I think I have this right): > **pedescribe > rexnervous > peekercpa > straggler > MentalGuy > Almost Human > Batman Jenkems** > > Yes, we about two days left, but letā€™s not wait to the last minute. Thereā€™s plenty of material right now to base your vote on. You can always change your mind later. THis is just a little condescending, but I get where youā€™re coming from. But donā€™t confuse people not voting with people not participating. Seems like a few of the people you listed are very active, and I donā€™t see how (unless theyā€™re posting fluff) that doesnā€™t count. Simple fact is this week IRL is way busy for me. I was participating over the weekend on the whole MentalGuy alleged PIS, but just havenā€™t had time since then. And every time I look at this thread itā€™s like ā€œwhoaā€ - better not post w/o having seriously reviewed everything. So tomorrow Iā€™m away from computer all day (in a car or in an all day meeting). And I if vote now, I wonā€™t be here to defend it, which will create all sorts of unwarranted suspicion in and of itself. Iā€™ll be back, but not until tomorrow nite. And no, Iā€™m not lying about OOG stuff, for whomever it was that thought that was part of the game. ---
**Author:** ![ok11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8baadc/32.png) [@ok11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ok11)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/440 "2009-03-18T02:56:22Z")
**Unvote MentalGuy** Iā€™d rather base my vote on a pattern of suspicious behavior than on just one incident. **MentalGuy** , I read your explanation, and it rings true, so Iā€™ll believe you. Based on your subsequent posts (their tone and content), I now think itā€™s likelier that your statement wasnā€™t a true slip. However, before I let it go, Iā€™d like to disagree with you on one point you made [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10943399&postcount=353). > [@](#): > > Based on sachertorteā€™s comment at the end of the revised rules, I do not see how this could be an example of a PIS. PIS is when a player forgets that he know for a fact something that the rest of us donā€™t, and accidentally mention it in casual conversation. Regardless of how likely it is that the scum can talk during the Day, itā€™s not a certainty. Your comment made it sound like you were sure that the scum could talk during the Day, and you said it in a somewhat offhanded manner. I am unvoting you because now I believe that your certainty wasnā€™t due to extra info, but simply based on your interpretation of the rules. I was hoping **SoTB** would be back by now. Iā€™ll wait a while longer for him to address my [post 330](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10942342&postcount=330), but itā€™s very likely that Iā€™ll be voting for him toDay. Iā€™m also getting very suspicious of **straggler**. Iā€™ll take a closer look at him tomorrow morning, but the general impression I have of his posts so far is that he doesnā€™t fully understand the rules of the game, and yet acts as though heā€™s got it all figured out. To me, this mindset seems more anti-town than **willthekittensurvive?** ā€™s, who is also acting anti-town, but seems to be doing so unintentionally. Iā€™m not saying this to smudge anyone. Itā€™s just that weā€™re getting close to the end of the Day, and I want the people I mentioned to be prepared that I might vote for them, so it doesnā€™t catch them off guard. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592.md?page=23)