# Mafia: Not-so-simple-Simpletown **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 6, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592 "2009-03-06T22:58:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/461 "2009-03-18T21:26:57Z")
> [@BillMC](#): > > Just re-reading this, fair enough that you voted for me for voting an idea, but I’m a little curious **Pleo** - why was **paulwhoisaghost** not on your list? He clearly states that it is the idea, and Straggler’s defense of the idea that he finds scummy. > > That said, I still find **Straggler’s** behaviour anti-town - tho it may be just his style to be very defensive. His list of suspicion is questionable, and why does he find **Pleo** least suspicious? because Pleo effectively got a vote removed from Straggler? I understood that **paul** ’s vote was more for the way **straggler** has been defending his awful idea, rather than the idea itself. The complaints about the idea I took as arguments against the idea. **paul** , would you like to clarify exactly why you’re voting for **straggler**? And, **Bill** I don’t really care if you’re voting for **straggler** or not. I was objecting to the reasoning you used, not the actual vote. Because I am beginning to think **straggler** is a good lynch candidate. His [“scrubbing up clean”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10945950&postcount=387) remark about **Sitnam** is too vague. What exactly does it even mean? That **Sitnam** hasn’t made any anti-Town mistakes? Good for him if hasn’t; it’s a standard we should all aspire to. And **straggler** ’s [“pile-on”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10947830&postcount=448) is really bothering me now. What’s with the winky smiley? Is he being sarcastic, or hinting at something he knows? Then he sets himself up as **kitten** ’s avenger. I think this kind of two-sided post is exactly the sort of thing scum do to try to look Townie. I’m happy to see **kitten** lynched, because of their Scummy voting tactic, but I want to **straggler** lynched more. **unvote BillMC** **vote straggler** On preview: I considered voting for **Seeker** for just that reason, but it seemed too meta-gamey. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/462 "2009-03-18T21:37:12Z")
The day ends in less than 24 hours: 1 - [Undecided] Adrian (Natlaw) 1 - Oredigger77 (Seeker of Truth and Beauty) 1 - Pleonast (peekercpa) 2 - Seeker of Truth and Beauty (Hero From Sector 7G, ok11) 3 - Sitnam (Nanook of the North Shore, Almost Human, straggler) 4 - willthekittensurvive? (**special ed, [Undecided] Adrian, MentalGuy, Batman Jenkems**) 1 - peekercpa (Sitnam) 4 - straggler ( **paulwhoisaghost, pedescribe, Oredigger77, Pleonast** ) 1 - No Lynch (willthekittensurvive?) ---
**Author:** ![Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hero_From_Sector_7G)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/463 "2009-03-18T21:50:43Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > **Seeker of Truth and Beauty** will be replaced as soon as I can find a replacement. Unvote Seeker Day one is a bit of a crapshoot. My early vote on Seeker was flimsy at best, I only parked my vote on him because I thought it was extremely suspicious that he left when the going got tough, but I’m assuming that he is being replaced because of real life. I know I can come off as a bit of a jerk sometimes, but I would like to welcome someone to this _game_ in a friendly manner. I can be a jerk to the replacement later. > [@ok11](#): > > I feel kind of guilty voting for someone who’s not here to defend himself For me, day is useful in learning dispositions and comparing them throughout the game. Absolutely nothing can be gained from voting on Seeker, as he can’t reply and his replacement will have a different disposition. With all that has gone on toDay I think there are better avenues to explore the power of your vote. You’ve just given yourself an excuse to not actively hunt scum and can retire until the replacement arrives. Vote ok11 ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/464 "2009-03-18T22:22:08Z")
I think that **straggler** definitely isn’t playing pro-town, especially with his latest post he seems to try to up hold an ‘aggressive scum hunter’ image. But would a new player as scum not think at some point decide to back down (with it not unlikely scum can Day talk)? About scrubbing **Sitnam** , I don’t think [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10941881&postcount=322) is a shining town one. He accuses **Almost Human** of limiting the choices to **MentalGuy** , **straggler** and **Pleonast** , but actually he does the limiting himself by ignoring the discussion and voting started by those posts. So straggler wiped over that post, but it also a point against Sitnam. > [@Sitnam](#): > > You voted for me because I had a good chance of getting lynched. Please explain how this isn’t scummy. The ‘you’ there is **straggler** , who hasn’t been back to respond to this. I agree that it is scummy of him, but if he is a new, floundering townie, he at least gave a list of suspicions, they he should be definitely be clearer about his reasons. As **Almost Human** noted though, **Sitnam** , you have placed two throw away votes and pre-argued votes for **kitten** and **straggler** without actual voting yet. Bah, on preview: “Don’t do ties! Ties are bad!” Sorry, **sachertorte** :o. So I’ll move my vote to **straggler** later to break a tie if needed, but I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt as a new player. Same for **kitten** - her actions are as bad as straggler, but she seems a more honest helpless beginner. **Unvote [Undecided] Adrian** **FoS straggler** (my vote goes here if still tie tomorrow) **Vote Sitnam** Of the **MentalGuy** / **Adrian** declaring friends, I’m still a bit suspicious of the latter (eg [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10944772#post10944772) ‘I think the discussion around MentalGuy has come to an end’ pings me - on one hand a simple remark about the current discussion, on the other a bit trying to steer town away from the topic). ---
**Author:** ![ok11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8baadc/32.png) [@ok11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ok11)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/465 "2009-03-18T22:32:09Z")
> [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](#): > > Absolutely nothing can be gained from voting on Seeker, as he can’t reply and his replacement will have a different disposition. With all that has gone on toDay I think there are better avenues to explore the power of your vote. You’ve just given yourself an excuse to not actively hunt scum and can retire until the replacement arrives. I’m voting for the person I consider scummiest, which is the best use of my vote. I think **SoTB** is scum and I want him lynched. If he turns up scum then it will get us one step closer to a town victory, so what makes you say, “Absolutely nothing can be gained from voting on Seeker.” I don’t like your implication that I’m lazy, and looking for an easy way to avoid doing work. It’s only Day 1, and this is the second time you’ve accused someone of not actively hunting for scum. ---
**Author:** ![BillMC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@BillMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BillMC)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/466 "2009-03-18T22:43:27Z")
After contemplating another beer, I’m going to go with my original gut feeling - I didn’t like his idea, but I also dislike how **staggler** has played. Whether he’s scum, or just a bull in a china shop newbie, his play is not pro-town. **Vote Straggler** ---
**Author:** ![\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/eada6e/32.png) [@\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Undecided_Adrian)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/467 "2009-03-18T23:33:33Z")
> [@Natlaw](#): > > Of the **MentalGuy** / **Adrian** declaring friends, I’m still a bit suspicious of the latter (eg [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10944772#post10944772) ‘I think the discussion around MentalGuy has come to an end’ pings me - on one hand a simple remark about the current discussion, on the other a bit trying to steer town away from the topic). If you think you still have something useful to add to this topic, knock yourself out. That statement was at that time and is still true, even if I don’t think anybody has forgot the discussion. Note that this post is keeping it alive as well, I’ve even joked about it in an unrelated post. Perhaps it really is better to remind people, though, **ed** said he still thinks we declared role alignment instead of acknowledging similar arguments and public perception. If he really thought that, however, he would probably brought more heat on. About the potential tie - our poor **kitten** pings me a bit more, but \*\*straggler \*\*certainly deserves suspicion as well, as I’ve remarked before. I would certainly switch if it became necessary to prevent a tie. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/468 "2009-03-19T00:04:40Z")
Wow, I’d better start yapping if there’s any chance of avoiding the noose. Hold tight, skeptical townies (and vote-padding scum), just let me do a re-read. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/469 "2009-03-19T00:59:08Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > In what way did **adrian** ’s name come to the top? > > How can you assess a situation, say it’s scummy, but have no evidence or reasons for it being scummy. > > Remember, your job as Town is to find scum and convince other Town you’ve found Scum. > > I’m not about to trust you that it’s a scummy situation just because you say so. Please tell me _why_ it’s scummy. Very early in the thread, I urged people to avoid pile-on voting. I watched what happened in the Split game, where an early pile-on very quickly resulted in a snowball lynching of an innocent townie. It was from this premise that I posited my wildly popular “hold off voting until the last 24 hours, and vote only for who you think is scum, and don’t change your vote” strategy. We all know how well that went down. While the strategy didn’t get any traction, I was still going to be wary of pile-ons, as it seems as though it’s the best way for scum to get the ball moving quickly against a townie. And indeed, if you read over the last 3 or so pages of this thread, I can identify 2 pile-ons. A clear one against **kitten** , and another one against me. For whatever reason, people love jumping on the bandwagon, probably for reasons of self-preservation. If they can keep the momentum going against someone else, then it won’t be coming for them. Given the effectiveness of pile-on voting, it seems an obvious way for scum to manipulate the game in their favour. So when **kitten** received 3 quick votes in a very short space of time, my scum detector went off and I “fine-tooth-combed” the whole incident. I refused to believe such an obvious pile-on could have happened without scummy influence. But who was it? I tried to put myself in the scum’s shoes. Would they want to be seen as starting the pile on? No, way too obvious. Would they want to be seen as finishing the pile-on (the 3rd vote)? It’s possible, because “scum would never do that”. But there was **Adrian** , right in the middle, ensuring a quick 2nd vote, and of course, delivered this line: > [@](#): > > I think the discussion around **MentalGuy** has now come to an end. “That discussion on **MentalGuy** is over”, he casually informs us, just in case we still planned on voting for someone he didn’t want us to. He then quickly follows **special ed** with a follow-up vote for **kitten**. The trap being laid for the pile-on, in walked **Oredigger** for a quick 3rd vote, with a story (that I believed) about seeing something similar to what kitten did by a scum in another game. Before people had time to click “refresh” on their browsers, **kitten** had vaulted to the lynch lead. People would have known that I’d be sounding horns to any pile-ons, so any scum manipulation of one had to be very careful. And to me, it reeked of **Adrian’s** influence. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/470 "2009-03-19T01:01:01Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > Hmm…I thought he was hoping for the answer “I am scum”…but that interpretation makes more sense given the way he phrased the question… > > **Vote Straggler** I can’t make out at all, **pedescribe** , why you have voted for me. Can you please clarify it to at least give me a chance to defend myself. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/471 "2009-03-19T01:02:18Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > What is your definition of a pile-on? > > Is it when a person gets more votes than someone else? > > because that’s how we lynch someone. I am using the term “pile on” to mean a very quick succession of votes against the same person. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/472 "2009-03-19T01:04:24Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > You voted for me because I had a good chance of getting lynched. Please explain how this isn’t scummy. Nice try, **Sitnam**. I indicated my suspicion towards you _well_ before people started tossing votes your way. I had to choose between making a meaningless “Nader-vote” to one of the others on my List of Suspicion, or make it count and throw it at you. If voting with common-sense is scummy, then I’ve got this game all wrong. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/473 "2009-03-19T01:08:04Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > It’s possible that you’re just bugging me but this strikes me as one of those posts were a scum is taunting the town about getting ready to lynch a townie. Kitten keeps looking more and more like overwhelmed town but you on the other hand are seriously coming across, at the very least, anti-town. I know were building a head of steam towards Kitten but I think I’m going to switch over to you. > > **Unvote willthekittensurvive? > Vote straggler** I have been against pile-on voting from the beginning of the game. When I made my “taunt” (as you call it) about the kitten thing, I was pointing out that kitten had moved in to the lynch lead after a pile-on got the votes against him/her started. Your criticism of me might make sense if it was the first time I’d ever expressed disdain for the use of pile-on voting, but it wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/474 "2009-03-19T01:18:01Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > You know **straggler** , the more I think about it the more having a posted \*List of Suspicion \*and voting for whoever is closest to getting lynched bothers me. Essentially its a _List of People I Want to Smudge_ but your decision (and it’s consequences) are out of your hands because you joined the bandwagon while simultaneously being able to claim you didn’t jump on a bandwagon because you’ve posted your List before it started. > > Tonight I’m going to read the thread over again and make a final voting decision, but I’ll pay particular attention to you sir. ooOOooo! Cue the scary music! You’d better tell your scum buddies to reconsider lynching me, because if I get lynched, my vote against you will earn more cred than any other vote that was made. Remember, if I die, _mine becomes the only lynch vote_ that can be 100% authenticated as “clean”. (_After I inevitably turn up as town, of course_). And that vote will be for _you_, **Sitnam**. > [@](#): > > because you joined the bandwagon while simultaneously being able to claim you didn’t jump on a bandwagon because you’ve posted your List before it started. But I _did_ post the list before the “bandwagon” started. Yes I _was_ able to claim I didn’t just jump on it. Apt observations. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/475 "2009-03-19T01:21:40Z")
> [@MentalGuy](#): > > Straggler, I feel this may be partially directed at me since I may have appeared to be arguing against pile-ons earlier in the thread. First, I don’t know if the situation with kitten is an actual pile-on or simply people coming to their own conclusions based on their own reasoning and past experience . But I was not trying to argue that pile-ons are never justified, I just thought one was trying to get started against me for unjustified reasons. If my comment had been a more explicit PIS then a pile-on against me would have been entirely justified. **MentalGuy** , when I said I’d be p\*\*\*\*d if a pile-on initiates a lynching of a townie on Day 1, I was merely referring to the fact of how I rallied so hard to avoid such a situation. However, if it did happen, suspicion would naturally lend itself to everyone who voted for the lynched. That’s only fair, though. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/476 "2009-03-19T01:24:13Z")
**pleo** , I think you’re still holding the grudge about me announcing you as the person I am least suspicious about. I still feel that way, incidentally, but I doubt there’s anything I can say that’s going to sway your vote. Hence, I’ll be focusing my energies elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/477 "2009-03-19T01:29:00Z")
> [@BillMC](#): > > After contemplating another beer, I’m going to go with my original gut feeling - I didn’t like his idea, but I also dislike how **staggler** has played. Whether he’s scum, or just a bull in a china shop newbie, his play is not pro-town. > > **Vote Straggler** My defences are there for you to read, **BillMC**. I’m inclined to think you are town, but I have no idea if there’s any angle open to me that will allow me to prove to you that we’re on the same team. You haven’t appreciated my playing style - perhaps a reference to my subtle cockiness and no-holds-barred confrontational aggressiveness - fair enough. I am simply trying to flush out the scum, by spraying my bullets as far and wide as I can. If there’s specific moves I’ve made that tipped you towards me being scum, can you please highlight them, so I can give myself a chance to explain them. You reversed your vote for me once already, I am hoping you can do it again. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/478 "2009-03-19T01:30:19Z")
_inhales and exhales loudly_ “Town, I’m innocent!” Over to you guys. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/479 "2009-03-19T01:33:04Z")
> [@straggler](#): > > I can’t make out at all, **pedescribe** , why you have voted for me. Can you please clarify it to at least give me a chance to defend myself. Yeah. Your comment against peeker was a joking request for secret info. If you had wanted his alignment (because you were a town), the natural phrasing would be ‘Are you scum?’. But you used the much more awkward phrasing "What role are you?', a phrasing elicited to get peeker’s power role-or-not status, something that would be more important than alignment only if you were scum. ---
**Author:** ![straggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@straggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straggler)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/480 "2009-03-19T01:44:20Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > Yeah. Your comment against peeker was a joking request for secret info. If you had wanted his alignment (because you were a town), the natural phrasing would be ‘Are you scum?’. But you used the much more awkward phrasing "What role are you?', a phrasing elicited to get peeker’s power role-or-not status, something that would be more important than alignment only if you were scum. Ok.. well.. I honestly wasn’t thinking that hard about how to phrase the question. I’m not really sure how power-roles work, so I can assure you that’s not what I meant by “role”. I meant “role” as in.. town or scum. That’s all I can say on the matter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592.md?page=25)