# Mafia: Not-so-simple-Simpletown **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 6, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592 "2009-03-06T22:58:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/561 "2009-03-22T13:28:51Z")
Sweet Jaysus this game’s a mindfuck. **Adrian:** > [@](#): > > _The name cabalist suggests cult to me. But in that case **straggler** would have been alone the first day and the cabalists would be extinct. This would only fit with the werewolf nightkill if there was a combination of doctor protection and vigilante kill Tonight, however, or with a townie power role where his attacker dies instead. I didn’t find a role with that description, though, Elite Bodyguard is close but not it._ What about a Paranoid Gun Owner? > [@](#): > > **The Paranoid Gun owner does not choose when to use his ability, but if he is targeted during the night then he kills whomever targeted him, regardless of alliance.** > [@](#): > > _One far-out thought: Perhaps the cabalists are normal scum and the werewolves were a cult? sachertorte might be having fun with the naming. Not sure if in this case Pleonast would have recruited somebody before his death._ ! That would certainly explain things neatly… I’m not sure what a “cult” is though. How does a “scum kill” work exactly? I thought they got together, decided who to kill, and submitted the name to the mod. Or do they vote to kill the way we vote to lynch in the day? ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/562 "2009-03-22T13:43:10Z")
> [@'\[Undecided](#): > > Adrian;10960856’] > Anyway, this is only my second online game and I’m not familiar with the various roles, but based on the [flash role overview](http://mikeburnfire.sitesled.com/mscumB.swf) these are my speculations: This flash role overview is not the be all/end all of mafia roles, but more of a simple overview. > [@'\[Undecided](#): > > Adrian;10960856’] > > The name cabalist suggests _cult_ to me. But in that case **straggler** would have been alone the first day and the cabalists would be extinct. no recruiting! > [@'\[Undecided](#): > > Adrian;10960856’] > > One far-out thought: Perhaps the cabalists are normal scum and the werewolves were a cult? **sachertorte** might be having fun with the naming. Not sure if in this case **Pleonast** would have recruited somebody before his death. still no recruiting!! > [@the rules](#): > > Win Condition: > Individual win conditions will not change during the course of the game. Your team wins when all threats to your team are neutralized. If my win condition cannot change, I cannot be recruited to another side. > [@'\[Undecided](#): > > Adrian;10960856’]NETA: If the scum majority nightkill idea and my number estimate are correct, that would mean that the three wolves had spread their votes out and the two remaining cabalists voted for the same person. Very unlikely for the wolves to do that. Or there was a tie, as willthekittensurvive suggested, ties are bad. But why didn’t the wolves vote unanimously then? except maybe the various factions don’t or didn’t know of the others existence, and so weren’t concerned about making a tie, or not voting unanimously…We can only speculate here. I’m still not convinced cabalists are Scum..werewolves seem scummier.. If indeed we do have 2 Scum factions, it’s not entirely surprising to have only 1 NK. Perhaps \*\*Pleo \*\*was the wolf designated to make the NK for his side and he was killed before he could, or perhaps the wolves target was protected in some fashion. ---
**Author:** ![ok11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8baadc/32.png) [@ok11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ok11)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/563 "2009-03-22T13:46:23Z")
> [@'\[Undecided](#): > > Adrian;10960856’]With several scum factions, how is a nightkill normally decided? Do they not get one each? I don’t know the answer to either question, but want to share my speculation. If there are two scum factions, one could have a night kill and the other some kind of different power(s). This would explain why there was only one NK, and tell us that the Cabalists are the ones that can kill. If both have a kill then one could have been blocked. Alternatively, both could have targeted **Pleo**. **Kitten** asked yesterDay whether the scum know each other. What if one or both of the scum factions don’t know all their partners in crime? The only other game I played was SDMB Mafia, and in that game one of the scum had to investigate a fellow scum before he could join them. So the other scum didn’t know he was on their side until Night 2 or 3. On preview: **special ed** ’s ideas also make sense. ---
**Author:** ![willthekittensurvive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@willthekittensurvive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/willthekittensurvive)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/564 "2009-03-22T13:53:49Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > If my win condition cannot change, I cannot be recruited to another side. maybe the cabal can only recruit town players, if they try to recruit a wolf they fail? that way:"Individual win conditions will not change during the course of the game. " but wouldnt stragler then be called master cabalist or something. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/565 "2009-03-22T14:04:28Z")
**special ed:** > [@](#): > > _I’m still not convinced cabalists are Scum..werewolves seem scummier.._ What makes you say that? ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/566 "2009-03-22T14:37:52Z")
> [@ok11](#): > > **What is a Cabalist? What is a Werewolf?** JHC people! A Cabalist is a member of the Cabal Faction. A Werewolf is a member of the Wolf Faction. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/567 "2009-03-22T14:40:39Z")
> [@'\[Undecided](#): > > Adrian;10960856’] > **With several scum factions** , how is a nightkill normally decided? Do they not get one each? One of the options randomly chosen? Each scum player votes and the majority wins? _Several_ scum factions? more than 2? What happened has your faction not been revealed? ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/568 "2009-03-22T14:43:05Z")
> [@willthekittensurvive](#): > > maybe the cabal can only recruit town players, if they try to recruit a wolf they fail? > that way:"Individual win conditions will not change during the course of the game. " > but wouldnt stragler then be called master cabalist or something. Do you mean like a recruiting mason? That’s possible, but changing sides isn’t possible. otherwise, a recruited Town will not have the win condition of “Town wins when all anti-Town elements are dead.” ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/569 "2009-03-22T14:48:48Z")
[quote=“Mr.Svinlesha, post:565, topic:488592”] **special ed:** > [@](#): > > I’m still not convinced cabalists are Scum..werewolves seem scummier..\*\* > > What makes you say that? Werewolves are one of the typical scum in a mafia game. I’ve never heard of cabalists in a mafia game before. I’m not certain we can say with 100% certainty that a cabalist = Scum. Now, we also cannot say they are not scum. I’m open to the concept of a cabalist being a mason of sorts. I’m open to them being Scum. I’m open to them being just about anything I’m not as open to the concept of a werewolf as being good for Town, though I’ll admit it is possible. I would assume they are Scum or at best, 3rd party, though I’ll hold open a very very small possibility that they are pro-town. To me, the concept of a werewolf just seems scummier than a concept of a cabalist. That’s all I intended to mean. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/570 "2009-03-22T14:49:55Z")
Sorry, I messed up the tags in my previous post. It should have looked like this: > [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > **special ed:** > > > [@](#): > > > > I’m still not convinced cabalists are Scum..werewolves seem scummier.. > > What makes you say that? Werewolves are one of the typical scum in a mafia game. I’ve never heard of cabalists in a mafia game before. I’m not certain we can say with 100% certainty that a cabalist = Scum. Now, we also cannot say they are not scum. I’m open to the concept of a cabalist being a mason of sorts. I’m open to them being Scum. I’m open to them being just about anything I’m not as open to the concept of a werewolf as being good for Town, though I’ll admit it is possible. I would assume they are Scum or at best, 3rd party, though I’ll hold open a very very small possibility that they are pro-town. To me, the concept of a werewolf just seems scummier than a concept of a cabalist. That’s all I intended to mean. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/571 "2009-03-22T14:52:15Z")
**ed** : Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![willthekittensurvive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@willthekittensurvive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/willthekittensurvive)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/572 "2009-03-22T15:02:11Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > JHC people! > A Cabalist is a member of the Cabal Faction. > A Werewolf is a member of the Wolf Faction. If we lynched a Mason, would he read as a member of the cabal fraction? ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/573 "2009-03-22T15:38:01Z")
What with our night, I’m starting to think this might be a modified version of Conspiracy. How appropriate that Pleo was the first to be nightkilled. In [Conspiracy](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=436661), there were three anti-town factions: the werewolves (normal scum), the cabal (malignant survivors\*), and the undead (needed lots of zombies). Furthermore, the town only won because the Vampire took out some wolves and cabal. \*If they had survived to the end and outnumbered the witches, they would have stolen the win. ---
**Author:** ![Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook_of_the_North_Shore)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/574 "2009-03-22T15:44:04Z")
I suggest everyone that’s going crazy trying to figure out why there’s Cabalists and Werewolves in this game go take a brief look at one of Pleonast’s Conspiracy games. He used the Cabal as an additional scum faction, in addition to Werewolves and Undead(Yes, there were in fact 3 scum factions against the Town. But they were against each other too. Great couple of games.) They are definately not Cabalists in the traditional sense, aka Cultists that recruit, since Sach has definately stated no recruiting in this game. As for whether both factions, Cabal and Werewolves, can kill? You can’t figure that out from one Night. I’m sure at least one of them can, perhaps both. So why only one kill, and a werewolf at that? I think the most likely answer is that either the Cabal can kill or we have a Vig/SK and they took out Pleo. While the Wolves kill was either blocked or failed for some other reason, like it being percentage based or someone’s power role. Most likely was a block. It’s Sunday and I’m tired and feeling lazy, so I’ll leave it at that for now, but I’ll be back either later or tomorrow with more. All this speculation is fun, but we still need to worry about our main goal, killing whatever scum exist. ---
**Author:** ![\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/eada6e/32.png) [@\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Undecided_Adrian)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/575 "2009-03-22T15:59:04Z")
[QUOTE=special ed] no recruiting! [/QUOTE] Well, after my day 1 experiences I’m wary of such definitive proclamation of facts, even based on subjectively unambiguous moderator statements. Or do you have additional information beyond the win condition quote? I agree though, if win conditions can’t change, allowing to recruit would make for a very misleading role assignment. > [@special\_ed](#): > > _Several_ scum factions? more than 2? > > What happened has your faction not been revealed? This was a very very general question, so I did not tailor it to this game. Apparently there _are_ games with more than one scum faction, though I doubt this is one. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/576 "2009-03-22T16:24:21Z")
I have no idea what a Cabalist is, but **straggler** didn’t role claim to save himself from a lynch so unless anyone has some compelling evidence the Cabal isn’t an anti-town faction asking whether or not they are ‘the scum’ of this game is kind of moot. I think right now the most important question is to ask is why a werewolf was killed last night, so far these are the theories offered: [Quote=MentalGuy] With a werewolf being NK’ed, can we assume something went wrong for the scum? Might they have tried to night-kill a player with a special power that backfired on them? [/quote] This is what I thought at first, **sachertorte** said repeatedly ‘ties are bad’, but I also thought the rule was the second victim that made the tie was the one killed, not the voter (this all assumes it was the werewolves voting here). The problem is either the werewolves were the ones voting and the person they picked had an incredible power or this was just some rookie snafu. Not being able to be night killed and then killing one of the people who voted for you seems way too powerful, and I seriously doubt that they couldn’t reach some kind of agreement. [QUOTE=Natlaw] So that means we got (at least) three factions: Town, Cabal and Wolf. Downside (with balanced teams): simple odds to win is only one third, compared to fifty-fifty with two. Upside: my guess is that the Cabal killed Pleonast and either the Wolves can’t, didn’t or failed to kill. Maybe our moderator was being cryptic and Pleonast was a lone wolf? That would mean he mostly likely was a Serial Killer but we didn’t have a second death. straggler as PFK makes even less sense, since he was dead Night One and then who did kill the werewolf? [/quote] I strongly doubt Pleonast was a lone wolf, this game started with 20 people and to me two anti-town factions seems the most likely. However, having a Cabal kill and a lone wolf kill would offset the large amount of townies and make a lot of sense of [**sachertorte’s post**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10959729&postcount=541) I agree the Cabalists are the most likely candidate for night killers overall though. > [@Adrian](#): > > The name cabalist suggests _cult_ to me. But in that case straggler would have been alone the first day and the cabalists would be extinct. This would only fit with the werewolf nightkill if there was a combination of doctor protection and vigilante kill Tonight, however, or with a townie power role where his attacker dies instead. I didn’t find a role with that description, though, Elite Bodyguard is close but not it. No recruiting. > [@ok11](#): > > If there are two scum factions, one could have a night kill and the other some kind of different power(s). This would explain why there was only one NK, and tell us that the Cabalists are the ones that can kill. If there are two scum factions but only one night kill it seems strange to open the game targeting the other scum faction that can’t night kill, if they didn’t know who each other was in the beginning being scum with no information powers and no night killing is a lame gig. Shit, I don’t know. - I’m still trying to wrap my head around the meaning of this: > [@sachertorte](#): > > Luck is an interesting concept. I’ve had terrible luck with a certain moderator’s game; and I’ve had wonderful luck with a different moderator’s game. I wish I could reciprocate that good luck, but I can’t. > > Pleonast, a werewolf, is dead. This leads me to believe it’s this game **sachertorte** is having bad luck with meaning the ballance is off (so we’re now too pro-town). Does anyone else have any thoughts on the mods lament? ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/577 "2009-03-22T16:34:33Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > - I’m still trying to wrap my head around the meaning of this: > > > [@sachertorte](#): > > > > Luck is an interesting concept. I’ve had terrible luck with a certain moderator’s game; and I’ve had wonderful luck with a different moderator’s game. I wish I could reciprocate that good luck, but I can’t. > > > > Pleonast, a werewolf, is dead. > > This leads me to believe it’s this game **sachertorte** is having bad luck with meaning the ballance is off (so we’re now too pro-town). Does anyone else have any thoughts on the mods lament? I think he means it’s unfortunate that \*\*pleonast \*\*is killed in Night 1, yet again. He seems to have lousy luck in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/578 "2009-03-22T17:18:11Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > I think he means it’s unfortunate that \*\*pleonast \*\*is killed in Night 1, yet again. He seems to have lousy luck in that regard. This is why I work hard to build my reputation of mediocrity. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/579 "2009-03-22T19:38:32Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > This is why I work hard to build my reputation of mediocrity. Mediocrity comes naturally to me. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/580 "2009-03-22T20:03:04Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > What with our night, I’m starting to think this might be a modified version of Conspiracy. How appropriate that Pleo was the first to be nightkilled. > > In [Conspiracy](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=436661), there were three anti-town factions: the werewolves (normal scum), the cabal (malignant survivors\*), and the undead (needed lots of zombies). Furthermore, the town only won because the Vampire took out some wolves and cabal. > > \*If they had survived to the end and outnumbered the witches, they would have stolen the win. Final **penelope** ly. I was gonna bring this up. \*\*Pleo/b] does the whole Cabal thing. \*\*Pleo gets killed. Yeepers peepers. I think sach be laughing. There is a wolf, there is a cabal. There are town. Wootie woot, this could be fun, not so simple me thinks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592.md?page=30)