# Mafia: Not-so-simple-Simpletown **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 6, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592 "2009-03-06T22:58:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 51
**Author:** ![ok11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8baadc/32.png) [@ok11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ok11)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1001 "2009-04-12T20:09:49Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > What I meant is, IF (and it’s a big if, granted) you’re a werewolf, then you can claim a role in which you’ll know if someone isn’t a werewolf. Oh, I thought you were saying you think I’m a Werewolf, and pretended to “investigate” a fellow Werewolf as town (i.e. that you were saying there are 6 Werewolves). Sorry. I see your point about the Detective too. It just makes the town seem overpowered. If the game started with 5 Werewolves and 5 Cabalists then the town had a 50% chance of randomly finding scum on Day 1. Since 5 Masons knew each other, their chance of hitting scum was even greater. Anyone got any ideas of how this kind of setup would be balanced? ---
**Author:** ![Almost\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@Almost\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Almost_Human)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1002 "2009-04-12T20:11:29Z")
> [@ok11](#): > > If there’s just one killer left, then it’s **BillMC** , and we have to lynch him before he kills a townie. If there are two killers left, then the second one got blocked, chose not to kill, or also targeted **peekercpa**. > > We can try to get some of the players to test each other’s claims Tonight. For example, **BillMC** can target **AH** , and if they’re both telling the truth then **AH** won’t die and **BillMC** will stay town-aligned. Either I, **Hero** , or both of us can visit **special ed** to see if he’s really able to capture. > > **BillMC** , if this game doesn’t have a Detective, then it may not have a Doctor either. (some snippage involved) Let me get this straight. You want the me to announce exactly who I’ll be protecting toNight so anyone who fancies a killing spree knows exactly who it’s safe to target. You say it’s so that BILL will stay town alligned but he could just as easily do that by visiting Ed who could either capture or kill him. None of your ideas do anything to prove your particular allignment but you’ll have effectively left the field clear for any kills you might want to make toNight. I’d very much like to vote for you right now but I’m going to wait on the opinion of our masons as apart from myself, they’re the only ones I know are town. And guys, we really need to vote together again toDay. Surely we must have almost won by now so let’s try not to end up with scattered votes all over the place. We did good yesterDay and I think we’re close to winning. ---
**Author:** ![BillMC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@BillMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BillMC)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1003 "2009-04-12T20:55:27Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > No offense, **Bill** , but I don’t trust you. You’re a claimed unaligned killing machine. None taken - infact I would be highly suspicious of you if you did. And likewise, I don’t trust you. Tho I’ll just repeat from the record, my current alignment is pro-town. ---
**Author:** ![BillMC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@BillMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BillMC)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1004 "2009-04-12T21:09:52Z")
> [@ok11](#): > > I stayed with **Sitnam** last Night, and didn’t get an “unsuccessful” PM. Unfortunately, that doesn’t help us. Your damn right it doesn’t help us. To paraphrase **Ed** from numerous other games: “_The goal of a townie is not to survive, but to find and kill scum_” Staying with a confirmed mason was a pretty pointless choice as you stood to gain no knowledge to help the town - you already knew **Sitnam’s** alignment - you did nothing to actively find scum. > [@ok11](#): > > We can try to get some of the players to test each other’s claims Tonight. For example, **BillMC** can target **AH** , and if they’re both telling the truth then **AH** won’t die and **BillMC** will stay town-aligned. Either I, **Hero** , or both of us can visit **special ed** to see if he’s really able to capture. I have to agree with **Almost** in [#1002](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11031077&postcount=1002), having her announce who she is going to protect would be foolish. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1005 "2009-04-12T21:24:07Z")
First off: **Vote BillMC** You are a LIAR. You said you’d spring Ed’s trap, and you didn’t. You are a liar, and you are a killer, and that makes you the most dangerous player right now. You may have felt it more important to get the fake detective (nice job on that, by the way, if you are telling the truth) than to follow the town, but that was your choice to make. Now you must die, because you cannot be trusted. > [@special\_ed](#): > > I’d like to hear from our Masons as to what their thinking now. They are the only ones I’m trusting right now. I’d also like to hear from **pedescribe**. He’s claimed to be non-town, but I don’t trust him to be a simple survivor. I’m afraid we might have a mad-bomber or some sort of chia bingo manager. He seems the most likely suspect. If I had to vote now, I’d vote to lynch him first, and have you commit suicide in my trap toNight, and then see if the game doesn’t end. Or if you decide to avoid my trap again, then we lynch you toMorrow. Okay, question. If I was a mad bomber, why hasn’t anyone reported any bombs? As for your other suspicions, I’m afraid I have no answer to them. I am a survivor, nothing more, so I don’t know what to say, except please don’t kill me. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1006 "2009-04-12T21:41:17Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > Okay, question. If I was a mad bomber, why hasn’t anyone reported any bombs? > > As for your other suspicions, I’m afraid I have no answer to them. I am a survivor, nothing more, so I don’t know what to say, except please don’t kill me. Again, as I stated, I was just throwing out ideas and trying to start conversations. In many cases, I made assumptions, but to answer this, Perhaps you’re a different type of mad bomber. Maybe we don’t know of our bombs. It’s conceivable that a bomber might have to get every living player. It would be a difficult task, and it would only be made more difficult if we knew who had a bomb attached to them. Usually, we do know when we’ve had a bomb attached to us, but maybe not in this case. This is not a simple game. Also, there are other odd 3rd party roles which can steal a win from Town, like having to know the alignment and role of all the other players, or something like that. Additionally, we can’t rule out the fact that you might be a werewolf still. All of these are just possibilities. We’ve got time to try to figure out who is our biggest threat, but I think we’re on the right track by having conversations. ---
**Author:** ![BillMC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@BillMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BillMC)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1007 "2009-04-12T21:56:13Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > You are a LIAR. You said you’d spring Ed’s trap, and you didn’t. You are a liar, and you are a killer, and that makes you the most dangerous player right now. You may have felt it more important to get the fake detective (nice job on that, by the way, if you are telling the truth) than to follow the town, but that was your choice to make. Now you must die, because you cannot be trusted. I didn’t lie - I fully intended to spring **Ed’s** trap - however Sach’s death post for **Ichini** made me change my mind. **Peeker** had been lying and was scum. Should I go quietly into the need leaving a known scum breathing, or should I do something about it? It appears that you would rather have **Peeker** alive and me dead – you’d rather that a confirmed anti-town element were alive? that’s a very strange position to take. You are damning me because I have a killing power - yet _“if you are telling the truth”_ you don’t accept that I killed **Peeker** - somewhat contradictory. So irrespective of whether there is another werewolf or other non-town power, you want me dead. Am I the most dangerous player to the town, or am I the most dangerous player to you personally? ---
**Author:** ![ok11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8baadc/32.png) [@ok11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ok11)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1008 "2009-04-12T21:58:40Z")
> [@BillMC](#): > > Your damn right it doesn’t help us. To paraphrase **Ed** from numerous other games: “_The goal of a townie is not to survive, but to find and kill scum_” > > Staying with a confirmed mason was a pretty pointless choice as you stood to gain no knowledge to help the town - you already knew **Sitnam’s** alignment - you did nothing to actively find scum. It’s easy to criticize me now **BillMC** , but I wish you had done so Yesterday when I asked for advice. Let me remind you that the only way I can find a Werewolf is by dying, and if I died, you wouldn’t have known whom I picked. So that would have been pretty pointless too. If I visited a Werewolf, the town could have lost 3 players in one Night: you, if you targeted **special ed** like you promised; me, if I picked a werewolf; and a third person due to a scum kill. So I chose to play it safe, and use my last chance of visiting a confirmed townie (because **Sitnam** might not have made it through the Night). I can assure you that my choice wasn’t based on selfishly wanting to keep playing. As for my ideas about players confirming each other, I admit that I haven’t thought them through. I was just trying to find ways for us to find out who is lying, so I looked at what roles would be able to confirm/deny other roles. I wish I had more time to think about it today, but I’m leaving right now, and won’t have time to play again until Monday. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1009 "2009-04-12T22:13:59Z")
> [@ok11](#): > > As for my ideas about players confirming each other, I admit that I haven’t thought them through. I was just trying to find ways for us to find out who is lying, so I looked at what roles would be able to confirm/deny other roles. I’ve been thinking through what might happen if you tell us who you are staying with. If you do, and you live, all we’ll know is that you lived. Because[ol] [li]you could be lying and don’t visit anyone[/li][li]you could have visited a non-werewolf[/li][/ol] If you die we’ll know that either[ol] [li]You visited a werewolf[/li][li]You were targeted by a killing power[/li][/ol] And it gives the Scum every reason to target you to draw suspicion on to whoever you visited. Now, if you visit someone and live, and then we lynch you to determine the truth, we’ll know that the person you visited was a non-werewolf. All of this assumes that you don’t visit me toNight, and I don’t want you to, I want \*\*Bill \*\*to visit me toNight, and put an end to his killing while he’s willing to die (if he’s being honest and provided we don’t lynch him toDay.) > [@ok11](#): > > I wish I had more time to think about it today, but I’m leaving right now, and won’t have time to play again until Monday. It’s OK, Day doesn’t end until Thursday, we’ve got time. Have fun ---
**Author:** ![BillMC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@BillMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BillMC)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1010 "2009-04-12T22:20:51Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > All of this assumes that you don’t visit me toNight, and I don’t want you to, I want \*\*Bill \*\*to visit me toNight, and put an end to his killing while he’s willing to die (if he’s being honest and provided we don’t lynch him toDay.) Fair enough, since dying is the only way to prove things, I will absolutely visit **Ed** tonight - just don’t enjoy it too much!! ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1011 "2009-04-12T23:24:29Z")
> [@BillMC](#): > > Fair enough, since dying is the only way to prove things, I will absolutely visit **Ed** tonight - just don’t enjoy it too much!! And I shall set my trap to kill, not to capture. And I will enjoy it. ---
**Author:** ![MentalGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MentalGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MentalGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1012 "2009-04-13T03:15:30Z")
Wow, I just am not sure where to start. Here is just some thoughts about each player and their claims. I will try to do a little more in-depth analysis tomorrow. Hero - claims coward. Since nothing apparently happens as the result of his hiding, this is a perfect role for a scum to hide in. We have no real way of testing his truth claim and it was not a role that was likely to be counterclaimed. He also claimed before anyone (supposedly to point out that there were likely no vanilla townies), but I don’t know if that tells us anything or not. Sitnam - is a Town Mason. ok11 - claims shepherd. Some of the same problems as Hero’s claim. If she doesn’t visit a werewolf nothing really happens. Another good role to hide in. If she is telling the truth, though, her role might have some value. Almost Human - claims doctor and no one has counterclaimed. This leads me to believe that she is telling the truth. However, when I Ichini declared Cabalist, the first thing that crossed my mind was to wonder if her and peeker were in cahoots. I pretty much immediately dismissed this since I thought it was dangerous for peeker to declare detective if he wasn’t. So, I don’t trust the doctor claim 100%. Special Ed - claims Paranoid Freak. Scum could hide in this role since it might be dangerous to investigate him. We can do the BillMC thing tonight though, and that would provide some confirmation (though not 100%). MentalGuy(Me) - Town Mason. pedescribe - claims survivor. Another role with no real action and no way to check it out. BillMC - claims Master Assassin. Admits he could be anti-town if he kills townie. Like I said, I will try to do more analysis tomorrow, but reading what I just wrote, my first idea is to lynch either Hero or pedescribe. Send ok11 to find her sheep to the other one. Have BillMC to go after special ed, if he is not dead tomorrow, then he gets lynched no matter what reason is given. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1013 "2009-04-13T04:31:57Z")
I still don’t get why you guys think BillMC will voluntarily kill himself. He already broke our trust once, and we don’t know what his real win condition is. For all we know, he could win tomorrow! And even if he is just a straight-up serial killer, he could easily take down a mason, at least (since he’s got nothing to lose at this point), and we have no idea if he has other powers he hasn’t revealed. Also–I am not getting why you all think I have to die. I’m a survivor. The whole point is that I don’t have to die. For anyone. If there were five scum (generic scum, which could be the wolves or the cabal or neither) alive right now, they would win without having to kill me. If there were no wolves alive, no cabal alive, and BillMC was telling the truth (any or all of which may be false), then the town would win without having to kill me. Why waste a lynch on me? I mean, if you think I’m lying, at least have the decency to build some sort of alternate theory. I mean, that’s a legitimate thought. But I haven’t seen it developed beyond ‘He needs to figure out who everyone is’, which, while a possible scenario, seems outlandish given the total lack of color clues, or ‘He’s a sooper sekret mad bomber’, something that would be, in my opinion, significantly worse than recruitment. But if you think I’m telling the truth, and still want to lynch me…well, that’s just stupid. ---
**Author:** ![BillMC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@BillMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BillMC)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1014 "2009-04-13T11:09:02Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > I still don’t get why you guys think BillMC will voluntarily kill himself. He already broke our trust once, and we don’t know what his real win condition is. For all we know, he could win tomorrow! This still sounds very much like you would prefer me to be dead, **Peeker** to be alive, and the rest of the town oblivious to the fact **Peeker** was Cabal. “_For all we know, he could win tomorrow!_” - assuming we are right and there is a single werewolf left, and is lynched today, then yes, I could win, as would everyone else, yourself included. Tho you appear to be suggesting that I have some other win condition - and even if I did - by your own claim - you would also win by being still alive. Indeed the second half of your post is making your case as to not killing you because you win as long as you are alive. > [@pedescribe](#): > > If there were five scum (generic scum, which could be the wolves or the cabal or neither) alive right now, they would win without having to kill me. Yet you then suggest everyone is scum except **MentalGuy** , **Sitnam** and of course yourself? That’s a pretty broad smudge, and if it were the case, the scum would already control the voting, so the game would most likely be over unless the Masons or yourself had some undisclosed power. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1015 "2009-04-13T11:56:49Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > But if you think I’m telling the truth, and still want to lynch me…well, that’s just stupid. I have no reason to believe you are telling the truth. I have no reason to believe that anyone aside from **Mental Guy** and \*\*Sitnam \*\*are telling the truth. To me, all options are open toDay. As to not lynching **Bill** , I haven’t said we shouldn’t, but even if we don’t, I would recommend we lynch him toMorrow. I don’t see how he can escape it. If he’s honest, he’ll die toNight. (And I know he’s already lied). If he’s not, he’ll die toMorrow. It dies almost seem worth the risk of saving a lynch to see if he’ll kill himself toNight. Of course, I wonder what happens if \*\*Bill \*\*targets himself at Night… ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1016 "2009-04-13T12:18:39Z")
> [@BillMC](#): > > This still sounds very much like you would prefer me to be dead, **Peeker** to be alive, and the rest of the town oblivious to the fact **Peeker** was Cabal. I would prefer that you be trapped, you could make your case about Peeker toDay, and we would lynch him. That way, you would have been contained. I don’t trust serial killers, plain and simple. And you can put up any amount of smoke and mirrors, but at the end of the day you’ve claimed an unreliable alignment and a requirement to kill, and even if you’re telling the truth, that’s still basically a serial killer. > [@BillMC](#): > > Yet you then suggest everyone is scum except **MentalGuy** , **Sitnam** and of course yourself? > That’s a pretty broad smudge, and if it were the case, the scum would already control the voting, so the game would most likely be over unless the Masons or yourself had some undisclosed power. Um, no. What I meant was that, if the scum were big enough to win right now, they wouldn’t have to kill me. Same with the town. I wasn’t actually saying that it was a reasonable possibility. ---
**Author:** ![BillMC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@BillMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BillMC)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1017 "2009-04-13T12:50:32Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > I would prefer that you be trapped, you could make your case about Peeker toDay, and we would lynch him. That way, you would have been contained. The minor flaw with that is that it would have required **Ed** to change his mind and not kill me in the trap – so by your definition, **Ed** would need to have lied. I’ve no idea if being _in_ the trap makes you immune from lynch - but either way, I suspect that you would have cried LIAR at **Ed** or went after him or me. **Ed** also stated that his trap would prevent someone talking or voting for the day - so I couldn’t have said a thing about **Peeker** until tomorrow, and **Peeker** would have been free to lead the town on a false investigation. So your plan would have kept **Peeker** alive at least another day/night. ---
**Author:** ![BillMC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@BillMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BillMC)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1018 "2009-04-13T13:02:08Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > Of course, I wonder what happens if \*\*Bill \*\*targets himself at Night… My PM didn’t say I couldn’t target myself - so I guess I can. Tho I can see why you favour a suicide run, it would keep your trap intact and provide you to night protection. But fair enough, if its suicide you want, then suicide it will be. Hmm, it does raise the question of what my final alignment will be - tho since I am pro-town when I die, I guess I am pro-town in death. I am ok with suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1019 "2009-04-13T16:56:47Z")
> [@BillMC](#): > > I am ok with suicide. Ok, but can we afford to trust you toDay and not lynch you? Worst case scenario: if BillMC is lying, doesn’t get lynched toDay then doesn’t get night killed, were does that leave us tomorrow? ---
**Author:** ![MentalGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MentalGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MentalGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1020 "2009-04-13T18:08:21Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > Win Condition: > Individual win conditions will not change during the course of the game. Your team wins when all threats to your team are neutralized. > [@BillMC](#): > > However, my loyalties change depending on who I kill - if I kill town, I become non-town, if I kill non-town I become pro-town. Does your loyalty changing mean that your win condition changes? I am not trying to be a smartass. I just have not played enough to know the exact definitions used in the game. Oh, this question is for anyone. I just realized that it looks like I am asking BillMC. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592.md?page=50) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592.md?page=52)