# Mafia: Not-so-simple-Simpletown **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 6, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592 "2009-03-06T22:58:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 52
**Author:** ![BillMC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@BillMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BillMC)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1021 "2009-04-13T19:26:59Z")
> [@MentalGuy](#): > > Does your loyalty changing mean that your win condition changes? I am not trying to be a smartass. I just have not played enough to know the exact definitions used in the game. I’m effectively 3rd party and my individual win condition is “you win with the team you are loyal to” - which basically means I need to be pro-town to win with town, and anti-town to win with a scum team. I believe statements like _“Individual win conditions will not change during the course of the game”_ usually mean there is no recruitment - for example, werewolves cannot covert townsfolk to werewolves etc ---
**Author:** ![BillMC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@BillMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BillMC)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1022 "2009-04-13T19:35:02Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > You may have felt it more important to get the fake detective (nice job on that, by the way, if you are telling the truth) than to follow the town, but that was your choice to make. Just to going back to this. Your line of subsequent accusation is pretty much along the lines of you would have preferred me dead and **Peeker** alive. Now, **Ichini** claimed that the Cabal would gain some mysterious power to help them win, as and when the killers were dead. So my death would have given **Peeker** some powers - which would have been bad for the town. ---
**Author:** ![BillMC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@BillMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BillMC)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1023 "2009-04-13T20:05:38Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Ok, but can we afford to trust you toDay and not lynch you? > > Worst case scenario: if BillMC is lying, doesn’t get lynched toDay then doesn’t get night killed, were does that leave us tomorrow? **Pede** has floated speculation that I am SK - now the usual win condition for an SK is to be last man standing - kill everyone else. So if I am SK, I don’t care whether I kill town or scum, only to live till the end. So if I’m not dead in the morning, lynch me. If I were a SK I would then lose. **Pede** on the other hand, is pretty much pleading for us to trust him to be left alive > [@pedescribe](#): > > Also–I am not getting why you all think I have to die. I’m a survivor. The whole point is that I don’t have to die. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1024 "2009-04-14T00:01:57Z")
> [@MentalGuy](#): > > [Quote=sachertorte] > > Win Condition: > Individual win conditions will not change during the course of the game. Your team wins when all threats to your team are neutralized. [Quote=BillMC] However, my loyalties change depending on who I kill - if I kill town, I become non-town, if I kill non-town I become pro-town. [/quote] Does your loyalty changing mean that your win condition changes? I am not trying to be a smartass. I just have not played enough to know the exact definitions used in the game. Oh, this question is for anyone. I just realized that it looks like I am asking BillMC. [/QUOTE] interesting catch, **mental guy** It does seem like his win condition changes. His explanation is weak. Also, **pede** ’s win condition doesn’t seem to hold water with **sachertorte** ’s rules. He doesn’t have a team (OK, maybe he’s a team of 1) and he doesn’t win when all threats to his team are eliminated. He wins when all threats to another team aside from himself are eliminated. I’ve heard **Bill** ’s explanation for why his win condition doesn’t seem to fit the rules, and, like I said, it was weak. I’d like to hear **pedescribe** ’s explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1025 "2009-04-14T00:22:33Z")
I have to say, I love lurking while being above suspicion. I’d too drunk right now to formally vote, but **BillMC** looks guilty and **special ed** right now looks like he’s toadying. Again, drunk, so YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1026 "2009-04-14T00:30:00Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I have to say, I love lurking while being above suspicion. I’d too drunk right now to formally vote, but **BillMC** looks guilty and **special ed** right now looks like he’s toadying. > > Again, drunk, so YMMV. toadying? I applaud your drunken vocabulization. I’m not toadying up to Bill. I want both him and pede dead. I trust neither of them most of all. We can’t have too many anti-town left. I’m all for a \*\*Bill \*\*lynch toDay if that’s the way we want to go. I’m just also for a **pede** lynch too. I have a sinking feeling we might need them both dead to finally win. But, now as masons and confirmed Town, you and mental guy have to give us some direction. You’re the only ones we can trust (though you can still be wrong, which is why I’m trying to offer advice) ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1027 "2009-04-14T02:34:21Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > toadying? > > I applaud your drunken vocabulization. > > I’m not toadying up to Bill. No sir, toadying to **MentalGuy** , the one man here everyone knows is innocent. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1028 "2009-04-14T02:39:22Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > No sir, toadying to **MentalGuy** , the one man here everyone knows is innocent. I’m pretty confident that you’re innocent too. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1029 "2009-04-14T02:45:20Z")
I’m drunk but I’m pretty sure I’m making sense, a great reason to toady to an innocent person is because you AREN’T innocent. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1030 "2009-04-14T02:52:02Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I’m drunk but I’m pretty sure I’m making sense, a great reason to toady to an innocent person is because you AREN’T innocent. because I said it was an interesting catch that he posted the actual rules about win conditions?Please, it was me who came up with the implications thereof in regards to \*\*Bill \*\*and **pede**. So while it was interesting, it was meaningless until pressed further. Now maybe Mental Guy was going to get there, but he hasn’t. So, maybe the reason I said it was interesting is because we have 2 players whose win conditions seem to not follow the rules. But all that aside, without toadying, at all, it’s yours and mental guy’s inputs only that Town can trust. You might not be right, but you two haven’t ulterior motives. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1031 "2009-04-14T02:58:44Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > But all that aside, without toadying, at all, it’s yours and mental guy’s inputs only that Town can trust. You might not be right, but you two haven’t ulterior motives. Sir again, it’s not **MetallGuy** ’s motives I question. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1032 "2009-04-14T03:09:13Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Sir again, it’s not **MetallGuy** ’s motives I question. yeah, yeah, I got that. You think I’m scummy because I pointed out that Mental Guy finally did something useful. I get it. I did it. I’ve no defense for it. But if this is the best our confirmed Town can come up with for a case then Og help us all. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1033 "2009-04-14T03:11:35Z")
I hope people read our exchange. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1034 "2009-04-14T03:17:50Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I hope people read our exchange. hope you read it when you’re sober 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hero_From_Sector_7G)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1035 "2009-04-14T04:56:47Z")
Easter weekend kept me busy and now I’m behind on schoolwork. I won’t be able to post much. > [@MentalGuy](#): > > my first idea is to lynch either Hero or pedescribe. Both **Ped** and **Bill** have claims contradicting the rule laid out by **Sach**. I’m more inclined to lynch them. ---
**Author:** ![BillMC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@BillMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BillMC)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1036 "2009-04-14T09:25:54Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > It does seem like his win condition changes. His explanation is weak. Here we go again :smack: getting lynched due to a PM that doesn’t seem to fit. Kinda ironic that it was **Pede** as mod who did this to me last time, and oh yeah, it was **Ed** who led the lynch mob. My win condition as a 3rd party doesn’t change - I win if the team I’m loyal to wins. I pick the wrong side by making a wrong kill and I lose. If you want me to go to **Ed’s** trap tonight, commit suicide, or kill someone of the town’s choosing, or lynch me today or tomorrow, so be it. I’m pretty confident I am aligned with the winning side, so I don’t mind dying. **Pede** on the other hand is literally begging to be left alive, and would have preferred me to be dead, and **Peeker** alive with his new powers – tho I guess the only way that he wouldn’t be worried about **Peeker** gaining new powers would be if **Pede** himself was a killer. **vote pede** ---
**Author:** ![ok11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8baadc/32.png) [@ok11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ok11)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1037 "2009-04-14T13:58:48Z")
I think we should lynch **BillMC**. If he’s a serial killer, then he might be our last threat. If the Cabalists really couldn’t kill, then it would make sense balance-wise for the less-powerful scum group to have fewer members. So a set up with 5 Cabalists, 4 Werewolves, and 1 SK makes sense to me. If **BillMC** is telling the truth and was going to commit suicide Tonight, then lynching him is the equivalent of having a no lynch. I think we can afford that at this stage of the game. If the game doesn’t end Today, I think my best option is to visit **special ed** Tonight. He should capture me, and if I’m alive but can’t post the next Day, the town should lynch me to confirm my alignment. Then, you can be sure that **special ed** isn’t a Werewolf. If I die from visiting him, you should lynch him Tomorrow. Of course, I could die from a NK rather than from visiting **special ed** , but the upside is that the scum would waste their NK on me instead of a Mason. What do you think of this idea? ---
**Author:** ![ok11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8baadc/32.png) [@ok11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ok11)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1038 "2009-04-14T14:03:20Z")
NETA: If **BillMC** is a serial killer, then he can’t be our last threat, because he would have won already :smack: So forget that part. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1039 "2009-04-14T14:43:42Z")
> [@ok11](#): > > NETA: If **BillMC** is a serial killer, then he can’t be our last threat, because he would have won already :smack: So forget that part. why would he have won? He hasn’t eliminated all threats to him. We can still lynch him, that’s a threat ---
**Author:** ![MentalGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MentalGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MentalGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592/1040 "2009-04-14T14:51:18Z")
> [@ok11](#): > > NETA: If **BillMC** is a serial killer, then he can’t be our last threat, because he would have won already :smack: So forget that part. I don’t think this is necessarily true. He may need to eliminate everyone (though if this were the case, I don’t think he would have claimed a killing power). He may have some other win condition than what he is telling us though. I have come to believe that the best option is to get rid of him as soon as possible. **Vote BillMC** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592.md?page=51) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-not-so-simple-simpletown/488592.md?page=53)