# Mafia Reunion Day 13 **URL:** \ **Category:** Thread Games\ **Created:** [March 30, 2017, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-13/783324 "2017-03-30T01:38:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-13/783324/61 "2017-04-01T06:57:24Z")
So in other words, I’m scum because even if I’m wrong today I would deviously fight until the end. You’re town because if **you’re** wrong today, you’ll heroically throw yourself on your sword and… what? Throw town into the 1-1-1 situation you just described where town loses? You’re making less sense as this goes on, though I appreciate that your opinion of my persuasive abilities is so high! At this point I think I’ll just go ahead and see if any other players would like me to specifically address any of your assertions. ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-13/783324/62 "2017-04-01T07:04:57Z")
It’s just like Vegas! My odds: **Johnny Bravo** is Scum: 95% \*\*Other \*\*is Scum: 5% Odds that \*\*Johnny Bravo \*\* is Scum and can convince others he is not Scum after a \*\*Biotop \*\* mislynch: 25% The way I see it, if I am mislynched you still have a 25% shot of winning if you are Scum, **Johnny Bravo**. The odds that one of the other is Scum is much smaller than that to me. Odds of a \*\*Biotop \*\* and Mafia win after a single Town mislynch due to some mod reason: 0% **New promise** (this is so dumb): if I am Scum and win after only 1 more mislynch due to some undisclosed mod reasons, I voluntarily forfeit the win for my Team. Why would any Scum team want to win that way? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-13/783324/63 "2017-04-01T07:20:17Z")
> [@Biotop](#): > > **New promise** (this is so dumb): if I am Scum and win after only 1 more mislynch due to some undisclosed mod reasons, I voluntarily forfeit the win for my Team. Why would any Scum team want to win that way? All that means is that you’re promising you’re not third party flavored scum who might win toDay. We know mafia’s win condition and we know that there’s no way for mafia to win with just one more mislynch - even if cult joins up with them. But okay, I’ll take you up on that. I believe that you aren’t third-party scum who will win with Mafia after a single town mislynch due to some mod reasons (what oddly specific wording). That still doesn’t mean I have any obligation to throw myself at a lynch. I never promised that, despite you “calling my bluff.” If town wants to lynch me, well, NAF owes me a great big “fuck you, scum and/or town!” color commentary from answering trivia a few Days back. That’s good enough for me! But hey, how about this? Will you make this promise? “If I am Scum and achieve my win condition at any point between now and the end of the game, I voluntarily forfeit the win for my Team.” If the mods say they’re willing to accept that forfeit as legitimate, I will immediately unvote you. But this is all silly. Nobody should be making promises about forfeiting wins. The mods should not be accepting forfeits in that way. It’s completely against the spirit of the game. ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-13/783324/64 "2017-04-01T07:34:26Z")
Yes. The spirit of the game agreed. Sportsmanship is the most important part of any game. But you were the one suggesting I could be angling for a Mafia win due to something undisclosed by the mods. That cannot be. The rules and the Mafia Mook role are spelled out. Anything undisclosed about Mafia would be…disappointing. ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-13/783324/65 "2017-04-01T07:39:45Z")
And now I am going to bed again. ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-13/783324/66 "2017-04-01T07:40:46Z")
Goodnight, **Johnny Bravo**. ---
**Author:** ![Plumpudding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Plumpudding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plumpudding)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-13/783324/67 "2017-04-01T11:17:10Z")
**Vote Biotop** ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Klutz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captain_klutz/32/4993_2.png) [@Captain\_Klutz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Klutz)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-13/783324/68 "2017-04-01T11:17:19Z")
> [@Biotop](#): > > (lots of snippage) > 8. He says that if I am Scum I knew who the Patsy was on Day nine. Not Guilty. Please tell me how. TexCat somehow knew too. That means we would both not want the Patsy to claim. Or something. I do not understand this but it is 3:30 in the morning so maybe I am just punchy. > > 1. I changed my mind finally on the Patsy reveal. Guilty. Why not? Wolves were all dead. All Scum now really did now know who was whom on Day 11. I revealed vanilla Town as well at this point. > > But I will say this: if \*\*Johnny Bravo \*\* the claimed vanilla who pushed to lynch the real Patsy yesterDay actually manages to convince everyone to vote for me, the claimed vanilla who pushed killing the false Patsy yesterDay— then Mafia deserve to win. Johnny’s reply: > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Yay! I’ll take your post by the numbers. > (lots of snippage) > > 1. This is straightforward reasoning based on the claimant/nonclaimant pools, though I’m currently doing it from memory. Somebody can go back to my original post if they’d like to double check. > > When raventhief claimed, the only players remaining in the unconfirmed pool were [Biotop/Scathach/Texcat/Hawkeyeop]. This means that, if you are scum, the identity of the patsy (provided the patsy didn’t false claim) was confirmed to them as soon as the raventhief claim happened. > > 1. But that’s [not why you said you changed your mind.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20084052&postcount=13) If that was your reason, why not say so at the time? Point 8: Actually, while **Nanook** had claimed vanilla, **Zeriel** had not. So if Biotop is mafia, then mafia knew who the Patsy was only after Zeriel’s lynch on Day 10. Alternatively, if Johnny is mafia then mafia knew who the Patsy was after Biotop’s claim at the start of Day 11. It was about 2 days into Day 11 that Hawkeyop finally claimed. Certainly that is time to cook something up, but the timing of Hawkeyop’s claim could not be predicted. It looks like mafia were waiting for that claim, as they had ample time to claim first if desired. Point 9: **Biotop** , at the start of Day 11, this was your reason for the Patsy to claim: > [@Mafia Reunion: Day Eleven](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-eleven/782716/13): > > At this point I am sick and tired of talking about the Patsy. I advocate a claim so we do not have to keep going on about it. Under no circumstances should you, Patsy, let yourself be mislynched. Being sick and tired of talking about it is a really terrible reason for someone to claim. To go from being opposed to the claim to supporting it, on the Day that the Patsy saga happened, is not a good look. It’s time to **Vote Biotop** (if **Biotop** flips town then toMorrow **Johnny Bravo** will be speedlynched) ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-13/783324/69 "2017-04-01T15:49:17Z")
☹ > [@Captain\_Klutz](#): > > Johnny’s reply: > > Point 8: Actually, while **Nanook** had claimed vanilla, **Zeriel** had not. So if Biotop is mafia, then mafia knew who the Patsy was only after Zeriel’s lynch on Day 10. Alternatively, if Johnny is mafia then mafia knew who the Patsy was after Biotop’s claim at the start of Day 11. > > It was about 2 days into Day 11 that Hawkeyop finally claimed. Certainly that is time to cook something up, but the timing of Hawkeyop’s claim could not be predicted. It looks like mafia were waiting for that claim, as they had ample time to claim first if desired. > Point 9: **Biotop** , at the start of Day 11, this was your reason for the Patsy to claim: > > Being sick and tired of talking about it is a really terrible reason for someone to claim. To go from being opposed to the claim to supporting it, on the Day that the Patsy saga happened, is not a good look. > > It’s time to > > **Vote Biotop** > > (if **Biotop** flips town then toMorrow **Johnny Bravo** will be speedlynched) **CaptainKlutz** , I was and am sick and tired of talking about the Patsy. If I never type the word “Patsy” again it will be too soon. But the wolves were gone and hiding roles didn’t matter anymore. Why was \*\*Johnny Bravo \*\*so keen on everyone claiming when power roles could just claim when in danger to avoid mislynch? Here’s what I think. Revealing power helped Scum tell who was Power and thus good to kill, and who was vanilla and thus bad to kill. That just meant Wolves and Mafia, who were both losing deeply in numbers to Town, would have a road map of whom to kill. I am betting they did not want to eliminate each other once the total was down to three members in each faction. They needed to reduce the Town numbers. They needed to keep the Town vanilla alive and to kill the Town powers. So that’s what they did. And \*\*Johnny Bravo \*\*was the biggest pusher of giving them that road map. If a Scum team was eliminated, then that hurt the other Scum team at that point in the game. Scum needed both teams active and killing two Town power roles verses Town’s one lynch. That’s how they could win. Why do you think wolves killed **Lightfoot** when they did? Why did Mafia keep killing claimed roles and not go after wolves? The best reason I can think of is that both teams realized that two active Scum teams killing Town power was better than one. But do you still think I am Scum? Then why can’t you vote for \*\*Johnny Bravo \*\* toDay and speed lynch me toMorrow? +++++ **So now I ask for this for a personal reason that actually relates to this whole Reunion game motif.** I started playing Mafia in a storyteller game back in July 2015. In that very first game I was a mason and **Johnny Bravo** was Scum. The game was a blast, I did very well as a newbie. Newbies are ignored by long term players. I think “Newbie” is actually a power role, though most do not view it that way. No one sees Newbies as a danger. They don’t usually get lynched, and the Scum ignore them and concentrate on dangerous old foes. Newbie is a great role and I thrived in it, I think. When finally I was killed by Mafia, and it was because of my good play even as a Newbie. I was hooked. After that I next played here in the \*\*Johnny Bravo \*\*game. I was Scum in that one. In the earlier first game \*\*Chronos \*\* had made a comment about how Scum do not scheme much, and reading their boards after the game was usually rather boring. So I tried to play non-boring. In that game Scum almost won. It came down to a coin flip between me and **HookerChemical**. I lost the flip, but those are the breaks. I next played a sachertorte game here. I was Scum and **Johnny Bravo** was Town. He nailed me right off the bat. I have played many games on the Giraffe boards since then. I have been Scum several times, and Town several times. In the games where I was Town I was always able to talk myself out of a mislynch like I am trying to do now. I have played something like 15 games of Mafia since I began nearly two years ago. I have had many experiences. But in all those games I have never been mislynched. Not even once. I have mentioned this in other games because I think it is kind of fun. I like my never-been-mislynched streak. I always assumed I would eventually be mislynched. But if my streak ends in this game after what went down with the 3 P-word claim, I will be disappointed. There is absolutely no reason not to kill \*\*Johnny Bravo \*\*first and me toMorrow. If I am the final Scum, then Town wins either way. There is no scenario where I can win if you all instead lynch me next after \*\*Johnny Bravo \*\*. None. Why would I be jacking everyone around like this if I am the final Scum? Why would I continue to fight like this when I am willing to die toMorrow if I am wrong? I don’t expect you to care that I have never been mislynched. But the whole theme of this game is Mafia history. In the spirit of the “reunion” theme of this game, I ask you to lynch \*\*Johnny Bravo \*\*first. If he flips Town I will assist your speed lynch of me. What do you have to lose? ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-13/783324/70 "2017-04-01T15:55:26Z")
> [@Plumpudding](#): > > **Vote Biotop** That’s it **Plumpudding**? No commentary on what I have said? Remember how I defended you back in that first storyteller game when everyone thought you were Scum? I wish you would at least extend me the courtesy of a thoughtful reply. Why can’t you lynch me toMorrow and \*\*Johnny Bravo \*\* today? ---
**Author:** ![Plumpudding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Plumpudding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plumpudding)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-13/783324/71 "2017-04-01T15:59:09Z")
:rolleyes::dubious:😕 Sorry man, you know I love you right? I think you’re one of the funnest players to play with. I’m not gonna go ahead and ignore my sincere belief that you are scum, and lynch someone I believe is town, just because you’ve never been mislynched. Why would I do that? And yes, you really would jack everyone around if you were scum. ---
**Author:** ![Plumpudding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Plumpudding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plumpudding)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-13/783324/72 "2017-04-01T16:07:52Z")
> [@Biotop](#): > > That’s it **Plumpudding**? No commentary on what I have said? Remember how I defended you back in that first storyteller game when everyone thought you were Scum? I wish you would at least extend me the courtesy of a thoughtful reply. > > Why can’t you lynch me toMorrow and \*\*Johnny Bravo \*\* today? You know what, I extended you the courtesy of reading all of yours, Raventhief’s and Johnny’s posts, even though I was pretty sure you’re our last scum. I remember your defense, I appreciated it. Actually, Thing Fish’s case against me perfectly illustrates Johnny’s point earlier toDay about his Hawkeyeop-case. Good cases, great cases even, gets made by town against town all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-13/783324/73 "2017-04-01T16:14:46Z")
> [@Plumpudding](#): > > And yes, you really would jack everyone around if you were scum. For no good reason but to prolong the game? No, I actually would not do that. ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-13/783324/74 "2017-04-01T16:16:02Z")
> [@Biotop](#): > > For no good reason but to prolong the game? No, I actually would not do that. And it kind of disappoints me that you think I would. ---
**Author:** ![Plumpudding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Plumpudding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plumpudding)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-13/783324/75 "2017-04-01T16:22:48Z")
But you would do that as town? And for no reason? I’m sure you’d have convincing arguments toMorrow for how we should not lynch you, maybe go after me instead. Also, I find it telling that you’ve focused your attention solely on Johnny Bravo toDay, and more or less stopped going after me in any meaningful way. Instead you’re trying to appeal to me on an emotional level. A tip, this rarely works with paranoid cynics. ---
**Author:** ![Plumpudding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Plumpudding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plumpudding)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-13/783324/76 "2017-04-01T16:25:16Z")
> [@Biotop](#): > > And it kind of disappoints me that you think I would. It’s not personal, and you know that very well. It’s just a game, even though we both really want to win! And btw, why would you care if you got mislynched, if it has no effect on the outcome? It happens, get over it. ---
**Author:** ![Plumpudding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Plumpudding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plumpudding)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-13/783324/77 "2017-04-01T16:30:22Z")
> [@Biotop](#): > > And it kind of disappoints me that you think I would. Let me put it like this: I know you to be a fair player, no doubt. But you also know why I can’t trust that, why I would be outright foolish to trust you based only on that. I think you’d be more disappointed in me if I let scum-you skate on something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-13/783324/78 "2017-04-01T16:48:22Z")
> [@Biotop](#): > > Why was \*\*Johnny Bravo \*\*so keen on everyone claiming when power roles could just claim when in danger to avoid mislynch? Yeah, waiting a long time worked out well for us. Patsygate never would have happened if hawkeye had claimed along with the other remaining power roles. > [@](#): > > Why did Mafia keep killing claimed roles and not go after wolves? The best reason I can think of is that both teams realized that two active Scum teams killing Town power was better than one. Or because the first four scum kills were all wolves and they had the luxury of waiting? I said many, many times that one of the reasons I wanted people to claim was to make it easier for the scum teams to kill one another (and thus incentivize them to go after one another rather than after town). For most of the back half of the game, Mafia had a nice big pool of claimed folks to kill out of, both town and cult. They already had their “road map.” > [@](#): > > There is absolutely no reason not to kill \*\*Johnny Bravo \*\*first and me toMorrow. If I am the final Scum, then Town wins either way. There is no scenario where I can win if you all instead lynch me next after \*\*Johnny Bravo \*\*. None. And if I am scum, there is no scenario where town can lose tomorrow if they lynch me. Will it make you feel better if they promise not to let me Grima Wormtongue them with my magical powers of persuasion? > [@](#): > > Why would I be jacking everyone around like this if I am the final Scum? Why would I continue to fight like this when I am willing to die toMorrow if I am wrong? It’s scum’s job to fight until the end, just like town. If town lynches me first, I fully expect you to try and talk your way out of the lynch **regardless of your role** , because doing anything else would be completely antithetical to the way the game is played. That’s why all of this falls apart, Biotop. The idea that a player, town **OR** scum, would commit suicide at this stage of the game is completely unbelievable. You want to talk about disappointed? That would disappoint the hell out of me. Luckily for my opinion of you, \*\*I don’t actually believe that you’d play that way. \*\* > [@](#): > > In the spirit of the “reunion” theme of this game, I ask you to lynch \*\*Johnny Bravo \*\*first. Wow. There’s meta arguments and then there’s \*this \*one. ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-13/783324/79 "2017-04-01T17:12:33Z")
\*\*Johnny Bravo \*\*, I am playing a game of odds. I think anything that allows you a chance to post your way out of a jam is a worse plan. I would stand by my promise to not fight and to vote myself toMorrow, which you refuse to make. You said you would smile if you were lynched toDay. I called you on it and again you talked your way out. You are very good at talking. You are a very good player. I posted at the start of this game about how this would be a game of attrition. Well now I am worn out. I shouldn’t have posted about my mislynch record. Why should any of you care? I should not let it be so important to me. But I have been making promises, so now I ask others to make one. If everyone except \*\*Johnny Bravo \*\*who votes for me will also promise to lynch \*\*Johnny Bravo \*\* toMorrow if I flip Town, then I will quit fighting this mislynch and let the chips fall where they may. If **raventhief** or \*\*Plumpudding \*\*is the final Mafia, I will once again say that they deserve to win. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-13/783324/80 "2017-04-01T17:19:05Z")
I did say I would smile if I’m lynched. That wasn’t a request to BE lynched. You know that perfectly well. And no, I won’t promise to quietly accept a lynch tomorrow. Neither should you. It’s bad play. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-13/783324.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-13/783324.md?page=5)