# Mafia Reunion Day 4 **URL:** \ **Category:** Thread Games\ **Created:** [January 31, 2017, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-4/778699 "2017-01-31T21:14:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-4/778699/401 "2017-02-04T02:48:07Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > If Manson is of any precedent, he got others to kill for him. Ah but Charlie boy had his voice. What if the SK leader couldnt communicate privately with his disciples? Here is why it keeps rattling. Why are they cultists, if the generally accepted meaning of the cultist role does not apply? there is no recruitment in this game. Maybe they are all survivors, a usually solitary role, but given the one power to find one other of their cut. That is the way its been presented to us. But it seems weird. Bit it feels like there is something more to the role. I dont know what, so it rattles. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-4/778699/402 "2017-02-04T02:51:51Z")
> [@bufftabby](#): > > What would be the difference between the two scenarios? Do you think the cult leader would have a different wincon than the rest of the cult? I don’t know. This is probably simple diversion from the actual process of hunting scum. It’s just something that has been bugging me. Maybe no different wincon? “survive to end of game” - but one player has the ability to kill people. I just keep wondering why they are cultists if the standard facet of cults is not present in this game. ---
**Author:** ![paulwhoisaghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e5b9ba/32.png) [@paulwhoisaghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paulwhoisaghost)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-4/778699/403 "2017-02-04T02:54:15Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > I agree with the idea that an additional team of five with the ability to kill would be really unfair to Town. But… I have had something rattling around in my skull. > > Cult leaders tend to be bad guys, right? So would a Cult Leader who is also a SK be beyond the pale? IE One member of the Cult is a SK, and thus kills, but the rest of them are trying to survive? > > Feel free to mock me but again, it’s been rattling around in my head. Okay. This is possible, but if it’s the case, it’s just as big of a problem for scum because they can’t afford to lose anyone… for every player they lose, they have to compensate with a death from the opposing faction and a death from the general population… and that’s just to get back to the status quo… so the concept that the cult leader is an SK is a dangerous one for scum. Right now, I see it as a good thing for town, as long as they keep targeting players they see as a threat, town has little to fear. So the kill coming from LUTHA is unlikely IMO, but if it’s true, all the more reason for town to align themselves with LUTHA for the time being. If anything, you attributing the extra kill to LUTHA instead of an SK validates just about everything they have claimed, unless you think that Sach’s PM is modified to match the one Crys provided. His role name is Deacon 1 or something about being first. But that’s going pretty deep down the rabbit hole. What I mean to point out is that everything they have told us would be true in your theory. That lends them credibility, lump in the fact that the only kill that can be attributed to them was scum, and I feel like it’s not a problem for town yet. It is a problem for scum. Town should be encouraging the problem, not solving it. Scum should be the only ones that want this resolved right now. This is why I think pushing a cultist lynch looks really scummy right now. Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-4/778699/404 "2017-02-04T02:54:23Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Ah but Charlie boy had his voice. What if the SK leader couldnt communicate privately with his disciples? > Here is why it keeps rattling. Why are they cultists, if the generally accepted meaning of the cultist role does not apply? there is no recruitment in this game. Maybe they are all survivors, a usually solitary role, but given the one power to find one other of their cut. That is the way its been presented to us. But it seems weird. > > Bit it feels like there is something more to the role. I dont know what, so it rattles. I agree that there is probably more to the lutha than has been presented. But at the moment I’m thinking it is more innocuous than apocalyptic. And for balance reasons, I’m thinking good ol’ Chuckles M does NOT have separate lutha board to yap on. And if there is a 3rd party killer, they are either lone wolf lutha or not in lutha at all. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-4/778699/405 "2017-02-04T02:57:44Z")
Ok, I’m not sure how much sense I made. Imma go drink a bunch o sake and eat one the world’s few remaining bluefins for exorbitant prices not paid by me…Ill check in in the morning. ---
**Author:** ![paulwhoisaghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e5b9ba/32.png) [@paulwhoisaghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paulwhoisaghost)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-4/778699/406 "2017-02-04T03:00:12Z")
> [@TexCat](#): > > What on earth makes you think that the wolves haven’t been hunting mafia from the get go? If they could lead a lynch on a mafia, it would increase their town cred. Plus a dead body is just a dead body to them. I don’t see any change in their strategy. No. Again, I disagree. At the beginning of the game they are on equal footing with the mafia. The main obstacle to their victory isn’t the mafia, it’s power roles. Now that they have lost two members that is no longer true. Now the mafia is the biggest threat to their wincon. Or did you think that the number of power roles being offed and the lack of cross killing was unrelated? Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-4/778699/407 "2017-02-04T03:04:00Z")
All right. I agree. I dont see the benefit in going after LUTHA. Not now, and maybe, honestly, not ever. I have zero issue with a survivor making it to end game and sharing the Town victory. I have just been wondering about a possible SK role. Shading it into a seemingly innocuous group of survivors would be diabolical on the part of the designers of the game. (Players take note-- this is the sort of shit I might do if I were to ever design a game) ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-4/778699/408 "2017-02-04T03:05:52Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > All right. I agree. I dont see the benefit in going after LUTHA. Not now, and maybe, honestly, not ever. I have zero issue with a survivor making it to end game and sharing the Town victory. I have just been wondering about a possible SK role. Shading it into a seemingly innocuous group of survivors would be diabolical on the part of the designers of the game. > > (Players take note-- this is the sort of shit I might do if I were to ever design a game) NETA I most definitely do not think that, even if LUTHA is hostile, they have their own board. That would elevate them to the status another scum faction. And that would be FUCKED. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-4/778699/409 "2017-02-04T03:08:11Z")
And I would probably have - of a group of five - 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th Deacons…And DEAR LEADER.) In case anyone thinks I am trying to smudge our claimed 1st deacon… ---
**Author:** ![bufftabby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bufftabby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bufftabby)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-4/778699/410 "2017-02-04T03:09:32Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > And if there is a 3rd party killer, they are either lone wolf lutha or not in lutha at all. This is where my opinion lands as well. (I know, I know, I’m lousy with the “me too” tonight. I just got home and I’m exhausted, sorry.) ---
**Author:** ![LightFoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LightFoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LightFoot)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-4/778699/411 "2017-02-04T03:28:56Z")
iF you consider the Town Vig as non hostile. then a cultists with a killing power (if they are indeed non hostile) is no difference\>? ---
**Author:** ![paulwhoisaghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e5b9ba/32.png) [@paulwhoisaghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paulwhoisaghost)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-4/778699/412 "2017-02-04T03:50:16Z")
> [@LightFoot](#): > > iF you consider the Town Vig as non hostile. then a cultists with a killing power (if they are indeed non hostile) is no difference\>? I agree with your line of thinking except that we don’t know what info from their PM may have been altered. I consider them a potential threat, just not an imminent one. Right now, the more scum we kill the longer this game goes on. That’s a bonus for town, it’s why town has to outnumber the scum. The longer the game goes, the better for town. Lynching a 3P doesn’t get us there unless we know they are hostile and are killing townies. Barring blocks/protections this extra kill seems have only been used once. And it was in towns favor, but several players have popped in renewing the call to deal with the cultists. Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![nesta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a4c791/32.png) [@nesta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nesta)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-4/778699/413 "2017-02-04T07:17:29Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Holy cow MHaye. I’m so sorry to hear this. Best wishes and I hope the test was bad. Oh man. I hope it doesn’t come across as flippant to wish you good luck **MHaye**. I’ve had life changing medical test results turn out to be incorrect, and it’s rough, but better than the alternative. > [@paulwhoisaghost](#): > > > [@Pleonast](#): > > > > > [@Hoopy\_Frood](#): > > > > > > > [@TexCat](#): > > > > > > > > When we can’t seem to tell the difference between scum and town, how do you propose we tell the difference between mafia and wolves? I just don’t see the point in discussing it, and can’t imagine why you do. > > > > > > As time goes on and we get more info, we likely will begin to tell the difference between mafia and wolves, through voting patterns, interactions, and detective reveals. There probably will come a time where it’s going to matter from which side we choose to lynch. Especially because the only thing we seem to have right now is the lynch if the vig is truly leashed. > > > > > > Since when is discussing long term plans a bad thing? Am I supposed to have waited until later in this game to bring it up? What if I’m dead before then? What time do you think it should be brought up? > > > > > > Or do you think it’s a bad idea to discuss this in general? If so, why? > > > > > > You too, **Pleonast**. Since you agree with her, why do you think it’s so bad? > > > > It’s bad because we have to lynch them all. Maybe I’m missing a case, but in any situation where it matters what flavor of Scum we lynch, Town will no longer be a majority of players. So Scum will control the lynch at that point, even if they haven’t won yet. That is, we will have lost, even if the game is not ended. I don’t fancy picking winners between the two factions. > > > > While there’s nothing inherently wrong with discussing end game scenarios, we’d do better by lynching any Scum at all rather than discerning if they’re the better flavor. > > I disagree. First blood has been spilled. Wolves need to even the score and mafia will want to retain their lead. If a wolf kill or a lynch takes out a mafia, they are going to want to take out a wolf. **As long as they are hunting each other, it would behoove town to try to strike a balance that maintains their bloodlust for each other.** Right now, all mafia has to do to win is keep killing whomever they want. Wolves now need to kill 3 mafia in addition to the overall population goal. Don’t you think that demands that they change strategies? **And if they are, then shouldn’t town?** [bolding mine] I had to follow the quote trail to figure out where you were coming from (and it goes back even further). How exactly do you think town should change strategies? Sure, the wolves can start trying to hunt mafia specifically, but they know who is on their team. They can hunt amongst the rest of the pool for true scummy behavior and vote or kill for it instead of just taking the expedient option. Town, on the other hand, has a much harder time differentiating between just overall scummy behavior and specific wolf or mafia behavior. As **Pleo** pointed out, are you talking about endgame or now? Endgame can come later, and I don’t see a reason to do anything other than hunting “scum” now. We can use patterns and interactions that point to one team or the other for clues, but to concentrate on one scum team in particular might exclude a player more likely to be scum because they don’t match the pattern. It’s a numbers game, and all scum count against us. > [@TexCat](#): > > > [@paulwhoisaghost](#): > > > > I disagree. First blood has been spilled. Wolves need to even the score and mafia will want to retain their lead. If a wolf kill or a lynch takes out a mafia, they are going to want to take out a wolf. As long as they are hunting each other, it would behoove town to try to strike a balance that maintains their bloodlust for each other. Right now, all mafia has to do to win is keep killing whomever they want. Wolves now need to kill 3 mafia in addition to the overall population goal. Don’t you think that demands that they change strategies? And if they are, then shouldn’t town? > > What on earth makes you think that the wolves haven’t been hunting mafia from the get go? If they could lead a lynch on a mafia, it would increase their town cred. **Plus a dead body is just a dead body to them.** I don’t see any change in their strategy. [bolding mine] This seems contradictory. If a dead body is a dead body, why put much effort into hunting mafia? This post pings me. It is accusatory, but I don’t understand how **TexCat** is getting from point a to b. I have issues with **paul’s** post, but the fact that the wolves might change strategy based on two of their team getting killed seems obvious, so I think you are reading his post very differently than I am. I read it and thought, “how are you saying town should change their game?” It looks like you read it and thought, “how are you saying scum should change?” See the difference? **FOS TexCat**. Something doesn’t feel right with you. I want to review the lynch leaders, but I think you just jumped in front of them. ---
**Author:** ![paulwhoisaghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e5b9ba/32.png) [@paulwhoisaghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paulwhoisaghost)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-4/778699/414 "2017-02-04T08:17:24Z")
> [@nesta](#): > > [spoiler]Oh man. I hope it doesn’t come across as flippant to wish you good luck **MHaye**. I’ve had life changing medical test results turn out to be incorrect, and it’s rough, but better than the alternative. > > [bolding mine] > > I had to follow the quote trail to figure out where you were coming from (and it goes back even further). How exactly do you think town should change strategies? Sure, the wolves can start trying to hunt mafia specifically, but they know who is on their team. They can hunt amongst the rest of the pool for true scummy behavior and vote or kill for it instead of just taking the expedient option. Town, on the other hand, has a much harder time differentiating between just overall scummy behavior and specific wolf or mafia behavior. > > As **Pleo** pointed out, are you talking about endgame or now? Endgame can come later, and I don’t see a reason to do anything other than hunting “scum” now. We can use patterns and interactions that point to one team or the other for clues, but to concentrate on one scum team in particular might exclude a player more likely to be scum because they don’t match the pattern. > > It’s a numbers game, and all scum count against us. > > [bolding mine] > > This seems contradictory. If a dead body is a dead body, why put much effort into hunting mafia? This post pings me. It is accusatory, but I don’t understand how **TexCat** is getting from point a to b. I have issues with **paul’s** post, but the fact that the wolves might change strategy based on two of their team getting killed seems obvious, so I think you are reading his post very differently than I am. I read it and thought, “how are you saying town should change their game?” It looks like you read it and thought, “how are you saying scum should change?” See the difference? > > **FOS TexCat**. Something doesn’t feel right with you. I want to review the lynch leaders, but I think you just jumped in front of them.[/spoiler] Well… I don’t know. I was raising the point because I thought it needed discussion. I expected others to off suggestions, not oppose the idea that the game has shifted. This is new ground for me. Right now I’m just watching who is voting who, in light of it all. I’m still trying to figure out how to capitalize on it. Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![paulwhoisaghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e5b9ba/32.png) [@paulwhoisaghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paulwhoisaghost)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-4/778699/415 "2017-02-04T08:18:46Z")
NETA that should say offer suggestions, not off suggestions. Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Khameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dec6dc/32.png) [@Khameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khameleon)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-4/778699/416 "2017-02-04T12:08:41Z")
> [@GuiriEnEspana](#): > > Well, it works both ways. If you’re town, there’s a vig, and who knows what other killing powers out there, so a response could have been relevant. > [@paulwhoisaghost](#): > > If you had been night killed you wouldn’t have been able to post at all, so it would have made sense to post at Night before the possibility of you getting killed. You could have reposted toDay in order to have the post in the current thread, but you waited, showing that you didn’t have any concern that you would be killed and your thoughts would go unheard. Your response doesn’t address this logic. My post would have been irrelevant if I was night killed because it was defending against a possible lynch. That was the purpose of the post so the information simply wouldn’t have mattered if I was night killed. To me that appears quite logical. I would also think that it’s not unreasonable to stay relatively quiet at night so that any would-be killers might forget about me while they’re deciding who to off. > [@sachertorte](#): > > Too much FOS, not enough voting. It’s been a long time since I’ve played as scum, but I do recall not wanting to commit to voting. I always wanted the luxury of knowing which way the wind was blowing before putting down a vote. On paper, it seems easy for scum to move votes around to effect the result they want, but in reality, if my memory is correct, moving votes felt very difficult. We don’t all play the same way. I’m not waiting too see which way the wind is blowing - I’m waiting to see which way my mind is blowing. Which simply means I want to think about it more before I place a vote. I posted the FOS’s to show what I was thinking at the time. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-4/778699/417 "2017-02-04T12:31:40Z")
Thanks for all the well-wishes. I appreciate it. I’ll just have to avoid biting my nails. Results in around two weeks. So. Yesterday I voted Prof P. My reasoning was that I distrusted what seemed to be an effort to get me and another player into a fight. If he’d actually done what he’d urged himself, I wouldn’t have voted him, but he didn’t, and as at the time of writing, still hasn’t. Prof P. If you want someone to analyse my posts? Do it yourself. (Yes I know someone has but can you trust anyone else to do your thinking for you?) Today, as far as I can see, you’ve continued promising much and delivering little; for instance post [post=19968699]D04.148[/post] was a significant time investment, but even after reading all those posts to compile the list, you don’t draw conclusions. My suspicions of Yesterday have not been allayed Today, so: - **Vote Prof Pepperwinkle** ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-4/778699/418 "2017-02-04T13:14:35Z")
> [@MHaye](#): > > Thanks for all the well-wishes. I appreciate it. I’ll just have to avoid biting my nails. > > Results in around two weeks. > > So. > > Yesterday I voted Prof P. My reasoning was that I distrusted what seemed to be an effort to get me and another player into a fight. If he’d actually done what he’d urged himself, I wouldn’t have voted him, but he didn’t, and as at the time of writing, still hasn’t. > > Prof P. If you want someone to analyse my posts? Do it yourself. (Yes I know someone has but can you trust anyone else to do your thinking for you?) > > Today, as far as I can see, you’ve continued promising much and delivering little; for instance post [post=19968699]D04.148[/post] was a significant time investment, but even after reading all those posts to compile the list, you don’t draw conclusions. > > My suspicions of Yesterday have not been allayed Today, so: - > > **Vote Prof Pepperwinkle** Okay. Paul asked me to create D4.148. I assumed he’d provide analysis from data I provided, which is what he asked me to do. The fact that I didn’t come up with anything is because I suck at analysis these days. I’m good at data assembly. Paul didn’t provide any analysis either, FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-4/778699/419 "2017-02-04T13:18:44Z")
It occurred to me this morning that maybe, just maybe, Angel was not killed because she was protecting me. Why would she be? I’m just another Townie. One with unpopular ideas, but just another Townie. So, if that’s not the reason, then it would be: **Angel has a long-standing proviso that 3P are always bad for Town.** She didn’t vote for sachertorte or Crys yesterday because Idle came around waving his arms and shouting “Look at me, I’m a target” and we obliged him. I trust Angel’s advice better’n anybody else’s toDay. **unvote Khameleon** \*\* vote sachertorte\*\* Because the more we discuss the possibilities of the known 3P, the more dangerous they become. IF they even are 3P’s. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-4/778699/420 "2017-02-04T13:22:43Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > Okay. But what do you think it means? > > [big snip] This is in regards to the list I put up of those people who voted for now-known Town all 3 days. Upon further reflection, I’ve decided it means absolutely nothing. If we only had one Scum faction it might, but with two? Nope. I see you’ve only posted 4 times this week. So has Crys. Way to keep a low profile, guys. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-4/778699.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-4/778699.md?page=22)