# Mafia Reunion - Day Two **URL:** \ **Category:** Thread Games\ **Created:** [January 17, 2017, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425 "2017-01-17T22:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Scathach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Scathach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scathach)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/261 "2017-01-19T17:34:02Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > I don’t really see what we get out of the Batman switch scheme. If Brewha dies, then we know that someone else has the switch, and that it is someone who was ok (actively or passively) with brewha dying. We don’t know if someone used a master switch or not. We know that scum probably watched the death, meaning the scum now knows who our Vig is. If brewha doesn’t die, then scum still knows who our Vig is, and the other switch is in the hands of someone who doesn’t care to flip the switch (whether it’s an on switch or a toggle, we still don’t know.) Plus two out of the three people that would have to be involved in the plan, the vig and the other switch holder, can’t confirm that they’re aware of or agree to the plan. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills that anyone is even considering this. ---
**Author:** ![GuiriEnEspana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc79bd/32.png) [@GuiriEnEspana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuiriEnEspana)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/262 "2017-01-19T17:36:59Z")
Apologies, real life is doing its best to stop me from participating this week, I hope to catch up before Day end so for now three thoughts: 1. I’m alive! 2. Farewell Colby & Burby! 3. I see Toejam has not posted so real life may be messing with him too, **Vote Crys** cause I think she’s active lurking scum ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/263 "2017-01-19T17:41:54Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Hey all. If you want to be specific about what you want clarified feel free to ask in green. > > Switches are not powers any more than the ability to turn on a television is a superpower. Physically via dial, or with a remote control? … Something something Technology indistinguishable from Magic… ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/264 "2017-01-19T17:42:59Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > I don’t really see what we get out of the Batman switch scheme. If Brewha dies, then we know that someone else has the switch, and that it is someone who was ok (actively or passively) with brewha dying. We don’t know if someone used a master switch or not. We know that scum probably watched the death, meaning the scum now knows who our Vig is. If brewha doesn’t die, then scum still knows who our Vig is, and the other switch is in the hands of someone who doesn’t care to flip the switch (whether it’s an on switch or a toggle, we still don’t know.) Goddammit. I always forget watchers. This is what I get for strategizing. That should probably be “strategizing.” ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/265 "2017-01-19T17:44:39Z")
How many switches are in the game? How many switches per side? . Do you really think we will get agreement of toggling, ever? . Does the rest of town even care? It’s moot for most of town. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/266 "2017-01-19T17:47:42Z")
> [@](#): > > [Quoth **Biotop**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19932146&postcount=228): > > Chronos, what happened to your last scheme, the one where everyone was going to say whether they were third party or not? What happened was that some people went along with it, some specifically stated that they didn’t like it, and some said nothing at all on the topic. I’m not sure what else there is for me to say on the topic: I’ve already made my statement. > [@](#): > > 1. The other switch holder, if Town, would also have to agree, and hopefully not be among the 5 or 10 people not seemingly paying attention or not showing up to the game at all. The plan calls for the other switch-holder to do nothing. If they’re among the absent, then presumably they’ll do nothing. > [@](#): > > If the other switch holder is Scum or 3rd Party, then Brewha likely dies. This is true. My belief is that the switches are distributed symmetrically, given that there’s so much other symmetry in the game. If that’s true, then **brewha** wouldn’t die from this case, and we’d have the ability to gauge peoples’ alignments by what switches they hold. If it’s not true, then we’d at least learn that. > [@](#): > > Perhaps we learn something about what happens to switches when a player dies. Which would also be valuable information. > [@](#): > > Perhaps we also give Scum or 3rd Party complete control over whether Batman’s future kills go through. This is a risk, but it’s a risk that, at this point, we can’t avoid. If **brewha** is telling the truth, and if an evil faction has the other switch, then they could just kill him themselves and thus gain control over the Vig (incidentally, this is part of why a Vig should be at least somewhat unpredictable, because if the Scum know who he’s going to target, they can decide whether to mess with him). > [@](#): > > 4.Two Scum have the power to turn off all switches. One Town has the power to turn on all switches. Let’s hope they are all cooperating. Is there a master switch controlling 3rd party? Who knows? I would hope that the Townie would be cooperating. I have no idea whether the two Scum would cooperate, but it doesn’t matter, because they turn switches off, the same state we’d get if everyone cooperates. > [@](#): > > 1. Two Scum have the power to watch and see who targets a player. That puts a cooperative Batman in danger of being outed. Re-read those powers. Town has a Watcher, who sees actions against their target. Scum have Trackers, who see actions taken by their targets. Scum only learn something here if they target the still-hidden Vig, in which case they learn the same thing they’d learn if they target him anyway. The Town guy could figure out from this who the Vig is, but I don’t mind if a Townie learns something (I’m not certain that’s the best use of the Watcher’s power, but it certainly does no harm). > [@](#): > > 1. We give up any chance Batman actually killing any Scum tonight. Unless, of course, **brewha** is himself a lying Scum. And we also probably give up the chance of him killing a Townie. > [@](#): > > [Quoth **Scathach**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19932164&postcount=229): > > Or if brewha is Scum but still follows the plan? What incentive would they have not to? If **brewha** is Scum, then they only way he can follow the plan is if his team really does have one of the switches. I think it’s safe to assume that they don’t have both, because it wouldn’t make sense to give a pair of switches to people who can freely coordinate their use. And they would then not know who has the other switch, and would have to at least consider the possibility that (as symmetry would suggest) the other Scum team has its mate, and would not cooperate, leaving scummy **brewha** dead. > [@](#): > > [Quoth **sachertorte**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19932227&postcount=234): > > In other news, since none of the dead players showed up with a switch, it seems that we do not receive information about switches upon a player’s death. Maybe, maybe not. We don’t know if any of the dead players had switches in the first place. If **brewha** dies (eventually, of any cause), we’d get a real test. > [@](#): > > [Quoth **LightFoot**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19932234&postcount=237): > > Doesn’t this create a situation where a lot of powers will be focused on Brewa > Won’t that be a tidy corral for identifying and later killing many. > > Think about that. See my response to **Biotop** ’s point 5: The Scum won’t learn anything useful by targeting **brewha** with their trackers. I don’t think they have incentive to target him with anything else, either: It wouldn’t make sense for a Doctor to protect **brewha** , so the Doc-killers are out; he doesn’t have a power himself, so the role-blockers are out; and the Scum protectors certainly don’t want to give their lives for him. > [@](#): > > [Quoth **Prof. Pepperwinkle**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19932279&postcount=246): > > So, what are the chances that Brewha is a 3P who wins if he’s NK’d? Then it’s going to be really easy for him to win, and so we have to trust in the mods that if such a role even exists, it’s not exclusive. ---
**Author:** ![LightFoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LightFoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LightFoot)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/267 "2017-01-19T17:48:23Z")
revisiting my D1 post > [@Mafia Reunion - Day One](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-one/776577/807): > > one post wonders > they posted once, wonder where they went? > [Red Skeezix](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=19908921#post19908921) includes a vote for lakai, for their vote. > > [Koldanar](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=19907742#post19907742) misunderstands roles > [precambrianmollusc](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19905056&postcount=110)Agggggggg better start reading > [Inner Stickler](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19908113&postcount=257) on vacation-vote Lakai, for their vote > 2 were here long enough to form an opinion for a vote - but only posted the once. > > 1 read the rules just enough to misinterpret them > > and PCM appears to have been overwhelmed by the volume of posts and ran screaming. **Red** only posted the once D/N1 **Koldanar** [did eventually vote for Lakai](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19918336&postcount=900) \*\* PCM \*\* Never returned D/N1 **Inner** [posted 3 times D/N1](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/search.php?searchid=13840509) so far D2 \*\* Red and PCM \*\* are still AWOL \*\* Koldanar \*\*[spoiler] > [@Koldanar](#): > > I agree - I assume that Suburban got targeted because of the post count, absent any suspicions (and I certainly didn’t pick anything up from his posting). > > Those of us (and I include myself) that aren’t posting enough aren’t helping much, so we should get louder. > > I’m still catching up, but to those who didn’t post on day 1 - what’s your reasoning? I can see life getting in the way on weekends, but to not make a day 1 vote at all doesn’t help anyone here. [/spoiler] One post - and chastizes non posters . \*\* Inner \*\*[is posting toDay](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/search.php?searchid=13840573) and I will look at those separately. Of these, 3 of them voted \*\* Lakai V1 \*\* with little/no interaction in game. AND no comment about the lynch of same. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/268 "2017-01-19T17:49:53Z")
> [@Scathach](#): > > Plus two out of the three people that would have to be involved in the plan, the vig and the other switch holder, can’t confirm that they’re aware of or agree to the plan. > > I feel like I’m taking crazy pills that anyone is even considering this. I mean… I agree **Scathach** We are talking like mid 1960s “Ka Pow” and “Blam” call outs, “BANG!” Flag guns, and the like right? Not Danny DeVito, Jim Carrey, or Heath Ledger Batman, right? 😕 In my opinion, Mafia games pit the Mafia’s Jack Bauer against Towns MacGyver… This plan, at best, is Mr.Magoo. I mean to say, aren’t we all in agreement that it is dubious to begin with? We could repeatedly do it, expecting different results. **But, I’m characterized as the insane one. Right.** ---
**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/269 "2017-01-19T17:52:15Z")
> [@bufftabby](#): > > I was in Dante’s most recent game on GB, The Thing, and so was **Bill** as Town and **Colby** as scum. (I was Town also.) There was some strong initial D1 snuggling of **Colby** by his fellow scum-mates, trying to handwave away his apparent scumminess with “Oh, he always comes across that way”. Colby starts to gain votes for scumminess, he gets testy about it, then clams up. Things continue to not look great for **Colby** , some wacky hijinx ensue, a Town Night power finally gets around to killing him, and BAM! scum. > > I don’t disagree that **Colby** ’s play was similar this game, but I’m also not particularly of the opinion that his crankiness in Dante’s game was related to being scum as much as it was to ‘This D1 crap again? AARGH.’ As one of the scum who was seen as snuggling Colby D1, I want to point out that scum didn’t learn who the other scum were until N1. Any scum-scum snuggles were scum snuggling the unknown and the hand-waves didn’t realize they were dismissing cases on fellow scum. (Had I known he was scum, I would have been happy to bus him.) ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/270 "2017-01-19T18:07:17Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > I don’t really see what we get out of the Batman switch scheme. If Brewha dies, then we know that someone else has the switch, and that it is someone who was ok (actively or passively) with brewha dying. We don’t know if someone used a master switch or not. We know that scum probably watched the death, meaning the scum now knows who our Vig is. If brewha doesn’t die, then scum still knows who our Vig is, and the other switch is in the hands of someone who doesn’t care to flip the switch (whether it’s an on switch or a toggle, we still don’t know.) There are also roleblockers to consider in all this… Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Koldanar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@Koldanar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koldanar)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/271 "2017-01-19T18:16:13Z")
> [@AngeloftheNorth](#): > > This post pings me because of the mention of Lakai. Lakai I is dead, why are you repeating your suspicion of him? I’ve only ever seen scum do this. Taking the meta out of this, this is a really weak argument / suspicion. I’ve been out of these far too long to trust anything meta, as that could easily be a crutch for someone to point fingers. My read is the same as what jsgoddess said - a simple repeating of what happened on Day 1. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/272 "2017-01-19T18:19:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > My belief is that the switches are distributed symmetrically, given that there’s so much other symmetry in the game. There is no reason to assume symmetry in the distribution of switches. Furthermore, I don’t see how brewha’s aliveness or deadness proves anything regarding the symmetry of switches. It’s just as likely that some other factor influenced brewha dying or not dying. Also, even if we somehow, magically, deduce that the other switch is held by Town, that doesn’t say anything about the distribution of the other switches. > [@](#): > > Re-read those powers. Town has a Watcher, who sees actions against their target. Scum have Trackers, who see actions taken by their targets. Scum have a tracker and a watcher (one-time use). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/273 "2017-01-19T18:19:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **HookerChemical** : > > As one of the scum who was seen as snuggling Colby D1, I want to point out that scum didn’t learn who the other scum were until N1. Any scum-scum snuggles were scum snuggling the unknown and the hand-waves didn’t realize they were dismissing cases on fellow scum. (Had I known he was scum, I would have been happy to bus him.) My first, second, and third reactions to this post were all “Wait, what!?”, before I realized you were talking about that other game. ---
**Author:** ![Koldanar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@Koldanar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koldanar)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/274 "2017-01-19T18:22:24Z")
Snipping for ease of reading - found my name here as I’m reading the day. > [@LightFoot](#): > > revisiting my D1 post > > … > > **Koldanar** [did eventually vote for Lakai](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19918336&postcount=900) > > … > > so far D2 > > … > > \*\* Koldanar \*\* One post - and chastizes non posters . > > … > > Of these, 3 of them voted \*\* Lakai V1 \*\* with little/no interaction in game. > AND no comment about the lynch of same. I’ll always admit I’m not vocal, a lurking habit I suppose? Here I am trying to break out now. Chastising non-posters should happen. Plenty of people here make the point that less information out there means less for the town to go on. And in Day 1, I was one of those. As far as the lynch goes? I still defend my choice - lakai(1)'s posts didn’t read as pro-town. The fact is, they were enough on Day 1 for me to point a finger, and I was incorrect. Mostly, it was his (did I get that right?) defense (or seeming lack thereof) that justified this for me. I am continuing with my read of this day. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/275 "2017-01-19T18:22:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Scum have a tracker and a watcher (one-time use). Ah, right, the Consigliere and Omega’s second powers. Which can be turned off (again, one-time use) by the Basement-Dweller, but that does make the plan considerably more complicated. ---
**Author:** ![LightFoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LightFoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LightFoot)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/276 "2017-01-19T18:32:23Z")
> [@Koldanar](#): > > Snipping for ease of reading - found my name here as I’m reading the day. > > I’ll always admit I’m not vocal, a lurking habit I suppose? Here I am trying to break out now. > > Chastising non-posters should happen. Plenty of people here make the point that less information out there means less for the town to go on. And in Day 1, I was one of those. > > As far as the lynch goes? I still defend my choice - lakai(1)'s posts didn’t read as pro-town. The fact is, they were enough on Day 1 for me to point a finger, and I was incorrect. Mostly, it was his (did I get that right?) defense (or seeming lack thereof) that justified this for me. > > I am continuing with my read of this day. any thoughts on the other 2? ---
**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/277 "2017-01-19T18:41:08Z")
> [@Scathach](#): > > I’m just saying that Chronos’s plan doesn’t really prove anything and in it’s worst case has the potential to waste a vig kill on a townie. In it’s best form it proves what? Not that brewha is town exactly. Possibly that brewha actually has a switch? Even then if the vig was targeted by a blocker or one of the one-shot “flip all switches” gets used the whole thing is moot. > > It’s a rube goldberg plan with no very obvious benefit. I agree with this. There are too many things that could go wrong with the “switch test” and what we gain is negligible in comparison. Biotop pointed out the list of things that have to go right for it to work out (Post 228). I’ll add the potential problem of the Enforcer: > [@Role Document](#): > > POWERS: > You are a souped-up role-blocker; target a player of your choice by Night and that player will be unable to act during that Night or the subsequent Day on account of… let’s say the flu. They’ll have the flu. (Note from Doug: it’s not going to be the flu. You’re going to beat them up). It’s not 100% clear that this works on the switch, but it certainly might, meaning that even if the scum don’t have the switch, they may have the power to make the vigilante work. ---
**Author:** ![Koldanar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@Koldanar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koldanar)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/278 "2017-01-19T18:44:29Z")
> [@LightFoot](#): > > any thoughts on the other 2? You mean Red and PCM? Their non-posting is distinctly anti-town (note, I am not saying scummy). They need to get themselves in here and contribute - this is helping no-one. ---
**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/279 "2017-01-19T18:47:29Z")
> [@HookerChemical](#): > > I agree with this. There are too many things that could go wrong with the “switch test” and what we gain is negligible in comparison. Biotop pointed out the list of things that have to go right for it to work out (Post 228). I’ll add the potential problem of the Enforcer: > > It’s not 100% clear that this works on the switch, but it certainly might, meaning that even if the scum don’t have the switch, they may have the power to make the vigilante work. > [@NAF1138](#): > > Hey all. If you want to be specific about what you want clarified feel free to ask in green. > > Switches are not powers any more than the ability to turn on a television is a superpower. This is what I get for posting responses as I read. It appears that the Enforcer will not work. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/280 "2017-01-19T18:49:21Z")
With brewha’s magic bag already open, I don’t think we risk too much for trying the switch gambit, with the exception of the possibility of the one-time Scum watcher getting a chance at discovering Batman’s identity by way of watching Brewha. It actually would set up a nice little stand off between Batman and the Scum watcher and I’d be just fine with Batman playing that standoff however he/she wants and potentially wasting the Scum’s one time watch. This of course assumes that Batman is paying attention to the game… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425.md?page=15)