# Mafia Reunion - Day Two **URL:** \ **Category:** Thread Games\ **Created:** [January 17, 2017, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425 "2017-01-17T22:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![paulwhoisaghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e5b9ba/32.png) [@paulwhoisaghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paulwhoisaghost)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/421 "2017-01-20T04:31:04Z")
> [@Captain\_Klutz](#): > > . > > As for wording, the mods have told me “The PMs say the same thing with different words. Read them again.” I can’t agree that they say the same thing: “Each Night, it begins in the “on” position and you may flip it to “off” or leave it alone” is an off switch, not a toggle. However, we now know that they are meant to be the same. I see what you are saying now… off means off… if it toggles, then hitting the switch could turn it from off to on… there is a difference. Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/422 "2017-01-20T04:34:58Z")
> [@Captain\_Klutz](#): > > I don’t understand why having control over a scum power pings you. Can you expand? Note that I have already explained why I redacted it. Not to answer for anyone else but IMHO you painted a really weird WIFOM target on yourself by specifying “scumpower” rather than just “power”. If you’re town, it’s bizarre–scum might want to kill you to reduce the number of scumpower switches, or they might want to leave you alive in order to maintain WIFOM on the scumpower switches. Meanwhile, I can’t think of any particular way town benefits from knowing you have a “scum” switch as opposed to just a “switch”–IF you revealed the actual power (and I’m explicitly not saying you should have!) you might have been able to put scum in a kill vs blocker WIFOM especially if your switch blocks a power that the scum might be particularly interested in keeping active, because the other person with that switch (if town, 3P, or oppositely scum-aligned from the revealed power) would have every incentive to keep letting you and only you flip it. Now that you’re out of the bag this far, it changes the calculus, but not IMHO by much. Anyone better at game theory than I am want to take a crack at it? If you’re scum, it’s bizarre in even weirder ways and I think I hurt myself trying to figure out why you might have done it. If you’re lying, well, all bets are off. FOS Captain Klutz for giving away free previously-secret information that, as far as I can tell, doesn’t actually help town much. ---
**Author:** ![paulwhoisaghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e5b9ba/32.png) [@paulwhoisaghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paulwhoisaghost)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/423 "2017-01-20T04:36:23Z")
> [@Crys75](#): > > Meh there is more than one mod running the game but I think putting redacted scum power makes you more of a target…Unless you don’t need to care… > > Sent from my XT1526 using Tapatalk But if they know what switch he is holding then it furthers their info assuming the other holder of the switch is scum… and for balancing I assume this is the case. Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![paulwhoisaghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e5b9ba/32.png) [@paulwhoisaghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paulwhoisaghost)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/424 "2017-01-20T04:58:10Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > All I can say to this is, huh? What’s pinging you about that? Do you think that the Scum have the switches which control their own powers, or something? That would make no sense at all. Yes it would… by your logic you should be voting for brewha… following your logic town shouldn’t have a switch for its own vig right? I need to check a vote count, but if you aren’t already voting brewha then you just shot up my list of suspicious characters. If you are voting brewha based on this logic you missed one key thing… there are 2 switches for each power that they control. It makes way more sense for the two switches to be in the possession of opposing factions… (i.e. Town have one vig switch and the scum have one. Or mafia have one switch and wolves have its counterpart…) I think is probably even likely that town have one scum power switch and the opposing scum team has the other. (I.e. Town has a switch that controls a wolf ability and mafia have the matching switch.) If this is true it’s also possible that wolves have a switch that controls one of our powers and mafia have the matching one. Which still leaves open the possibility that brewha is scum of one kind or the other… but is much more complicated then you indicate in your statement that scum wouldn’t have a switch for their own power. It makes total sense to me that they would… so that they have a chance that their power would go through even if the other switch was used. Example: mafia power 1 has two switches that affect it. Town holds one switch, mafia hold the other. Town has to decide whether to turn off the power or if the mafia will use their switch and it would be better for town to not hit the switch. If town does use their switch and mafia doesn’t use theirs, the power is cancelled. If both use their switch the power goes through. If town doesn’t use their switch and the mafia uses theirs, the power is cancelled. If neither use the switch the power goes through… makes perfect, balanced, game theory sense to me… not even that complicated… your post above seems more intended to lend disbelief to the concept… but why? Either you didn’t think of all of this, you don’t think it likely, or you KNOW scum have a switch for their own power and you want to play down that info… FOS Chronos Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/425 "2017-01-20T04:59:53Z")
Ok, I’m off work until sunday. Meaning I’ll be on my phone. Meaning I’ll probably be constantly redirected while trying to play, so expect my post frequency to decrease. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Klutz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captain_klutz/32/4993_2.png) [@Captain\_Klutz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Klutz)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/426 "2017-01-20T05:00:50Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Not to answer for anyone else but IMHO you painted a really weird WIFOM target on yourself by specifying “scumpower” rather than just “power”. > > If you’re town, it’s bizarre–scum might want to kill you to reduce the number of scumpower switches, or they might want to leave you alive in order to maintain WIFOM on the scumpower switches. > > Meanwhile, I can’t think of any particular way town benefits from knowing you have a “scum” switch as opposed to just a “switch”–IF you revealed the actual power (and I’m explicitly not saying you should have!) you might have been able to put scum in a kill vs blocker WIFOM especially if your switch blocks a power that the scum might be particularly interested in keeping active, because the other person with that switch (if town, 3P, or oppositely scum-aligned from the revealed power) would have every incentive to keep letting you and only you flip it. > > Now that you’re out of the bag this far, it changes the calculus, but not IMHO by much. Anyone better at game theory than I am want to take a crack at it? > > If you’re scum, it’s bizarre in even weirder ways and I think I hurt myself trying to figure out why you might have done it. > > If you’re lying, well, all bets are off. > > FOS Captain Klutz for giving away free previously-secret information that, as far as I can tell, doesn’t actually help town much. I think it is useful to know that town have switches for both town and scum powers (yes, I am assuming **brewha** is town). Scum might kill me to eliminate a switch, but it will help them little as they do not know what it controls. In addition, brewha’s switch appeared to work differently to mine. That is something I wanted to sort out. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/427 "2017-01-20T05:17:21Z")
> [@LightFoot](#): > > Go home you are loaded- this post sounds disconnected and you may explain it tomorrow > > > [@Crys75](#): > > > > Meh there is more than one mod running the game but I think putting redacted scum power makes you more of a target…Unless you don’t need to care… > > > > Sent from my XT1526 using Tapatalk I think that 1) loaded is right (two percocets were mentioned) and 2) he meant that a person stating he had a **scum** switch rather than simply **any** switch might make a person a target, the logic being that that person could turn off a scum power and scum might not like that. The follow up statement then is a implication that this is a tell because the the claimant doesn’t need to worry about being killed by scum, presumably because they are scum. I find myself very curious about why **Captain Klutz** would reveal that he had a scum switch. While I was composing this I find he had this to say. > [@Captain\_Klutz](#): > > I think it is useful to know that town have switches for both town and scum powers (yes, I am assuming **brewha** is town). > > Scum might kill me to eliminate a switch, but it will help them little as they do not know what it controls. > > In addition, brewha’s switch appeared to work differently to mine. That is something I wanted to sort out. I think the Mods have been as clear as they can be without chiseling words on marble that the switches all operate the same. We even have an example with a vigilante all spoilered up and everything. I think if you do have a scum switch it would help scum just fine to kill you. They don’t have to know what power it controls. They just know that you can’t turn it off anymore, which can only benefit them. Unless there’s something I missed in the role descriptions about the “accidental restoring of the lynched from the dead” power or something, why wouldn’t the scum want you dead right now? Which makes me wonder why you did it - some weird third party win condition, carelessness, or was it actually a scum tell? ---
**Author:** ![paulwhoisaghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e5b9ba/32.png) [@paulwhoisaghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paulwhoisaghost)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/428 "2017-01-20T05:19:37Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Not to answer for anyone else but IMHO you painted a really weird WIFOM target on yourself by specifying “scumpower” rather than just “power”. > > If you’re town, it’s bizarre–scum might want to kill you to reduce the number of scumpower switches, or they might want to leave you alive in order to maintain WIFOM on the scumpower switches. > > Meanwhile, I can’t think of any particular way town benefits from knowing you have a “scum” switch as opposed to just a “switch”–IF you revealed the actual power (and I’m explicitly not saying you should have!) you might have been able to put scum in a kill vs blocker WIFOM especially if your switch blocks a power that the scum might be particularly interested in keeping active, because the other person with that switch (if town, 3P, or oppositely scum-aligned from the revealed power) would have every incentive to keep letting you and only you flip it. > > Now that you’re out of the bag this far, it changes the calculus, but not IMHO by much. Anyone better at game theory than I am want to take a crack at it? > > If you’re scum, it’s bizarre in even weirder ways and I think I hurt myself trying to figure out why you might have done it. > > If you’re lying, well, all bets are off. > > FOS Captain Klutz for giving away free previously-secret information that, as far as I can tell, doesn’t actually help town much. It does help town if he is being honest and is town… before he revealed this we only knew that there was a switch that targeted the town vig… now we know that there is also a switch that targets scum powers. The game theory is sound… and balanced if the switches are given to the team whose power it affects and an opposing factions. It doesn’t makes sense for both switches to fall to that team though. If it was a mafia or wolf power they would be able to communicate with each other and it makes the switches pointless. It also makes sense if the three factions control each other’s powers. In that case mafia and town would hold wolf switches and town switches, wolves and town would hold mafia and town switches and mafia and wolves would hold each other’s switches and town switches. Does that make sense? If he’s being honest it makes sense. It doesn’t give us any info about his alignment though… but in this situation we are left with a dilemma… no one can counterclaim the switch holders because two of the three haven’t given the power they affect. And no one has counterclaimed the third. That means she is either telling the truth but scum dont want to counter because they lose the ability to shut down the vig or she is scum and fishing for our switch holder so that scum can shut him down until their switch holder dies. It’s WiFoM… but if there is a town counterpart… I think they should counterclaim… I find it highly unlikely that town holds both switches for our own vig… to do so borders on Gastard IMHO. So if we get a counterclaim we Lynch one or both of them if necessary, town don’t need a switch to turn off our vig as much as we need to eliminate scum holding that switch or as much as we need to kill scum… so I say counterclaiming would be a good idea right about now. Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![paulwhoisaghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e5b9ba/32.png) [@paulwhoisaghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paulwhoisaghost)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/429 "2017-01-20T05:20:40Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > Ok, I’m off work until sunday. Meaning I’ll be on my phone. Meaning I’ll probably be constantly redirected while trying to play, so expect my post frequency to decrease. Why is everyone being redirected? I’m on my phone with 0 redirects. Are you using Tapatalk on your phone? Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/430 "2017-01-20T05:25:40Z")
> [@paulwhoisaghost](#): > > Why is everyone being redirected? I’m on my phone with 0 redirects. Are you using Tapatalk on your phone? > > Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk Terrible ads I suspect. And as Uchiha as I hate tapatalk, I may concede and reinstall it. Eta: Uchiha? Should be “much” ---
**Author:** ![LightFoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LightFoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LightFoot)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/431 "2017-01-20T05:32:58Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > ~snipped~ > I think if you do have a scum switch it would help scum just fine to kill you. They don’t have to know what power it controls. They just know that you can’t turn it off anymore, which can only benefit them. Unless there’s something I missed in the role descriptions about the “accidental restoring of the lynched from the dead” power or something, why wouldn’t the scum want you dead right now? Which makes me wonder why you did it - some weird third party win condition, carelessness, or was it actually a scum tell? upside- it is not stated if it is a Mafia switch or a Wolf switch. so that could make it less dangerous for the holder ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Klutz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captain_klutz/32/4993_2.png) [@Captain\_Klutz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Klutz)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/432 "2017-01-20T05:34:01Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > I think the Mods have been as clear as they can be without chiseling words on marble that the switches all operate the same. We even have an example with a vigilante all spoilered up and everything. > > I think if you do have a scum switch it would help scum just fine to kill you. They don’t have to know what power it controls. They just know that you can’t turn it off anymore, which can only benefit them. Unless there’s something I missed in the role descriptions about the “accidental restoring of the lynched from the dead” power or something, why wouldn’t the scum want you dead right now? Which makes me wonder why you did it - some weird third party win condition, carelessness, or was it actually a scum tell? That switch clarification by the mods was after my claim. And yes, scum do need to know what power it is. If they kill me then one switch is out of action. What do they now do? Flip all their switches, in the hope that mine matches one of theirs? That would be a great result if a townie also holds the matching switch. ---
**Author:** ![paulwhoisaghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e5b9ba/32.png) [@paulwhoisaghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paulwhoisaghost)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/433 "2017-01-20T05:35:28Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > I think that 1) loaded is right (two percocets were mentioned) and 2) he meant that a person stating he had a **scum** switch rather than simply **any** switch might make a person a target, the logic being that that person could turn off a scum power and scum might not like that. The follow up statement then is a implication that this is a tell because the the claimant doesn’t need to worry about being killed by scum, presumably because they are scum. > > I find myself very curious about why **Captain Klutz** would reveal that he had a scum switch. While I was composing this I find he had this to say. > I think the Mods have been as clear as they can be without chiseling words on marble that the switches all operate the same. We even have an example with a vigilante all spoilered up and everything. > > I think if you do have a scum switch it would help scum just fine to kill you. They don’t have to know what power it controls. They just know that you can’t turn it off anymore, which can only benefit them. Unless there’s something I missed in the role descriptions about the “accidental restoring of the lynched from the dead” power or something, why wouldn’t the scum want you dead right now? Which makes me wonder why you did it - some weird third party win condition, carelessness, or was it actually a scum tell? You missed a point of logic. Scum dont know what power his switch controls… so even if they kill him they don’t know whether or not to flip their matching switch. This assumes they have multiple switches. Also you seem to be forgetting that he only specified scum… so he could have a wolf or a mafia switch. And neither team would find out which switch he was holding when he died… so they gain zero information from his death and they could potentially be aiding the other team. There is so much WiFoM built into this mechanic that it doesn’t really benefit any of the teams to kill a switch holder without knowing what switch they hold. If brewha is town… we have a problem because they now have a huge target on them. If scum, then the townie with the matching switch should claim so we can start killing scum. Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![paulwhoisaghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e5b9ba/32.png) [@paulwhoisaghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paulwhoisaghost)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/434 "2017-01-20T05:44:05Z")
> [@Captain\_Klutz](#): > > That switch clarification by the mods was after my claim. > > And yes, scum do need to know what power it is. If they kill me then one switch is out of action. What do they now do? Flip all their switches, in the hope that mine matches one of theirs? That would be a great result if a townie also holds the matching switch. Wait what? That makes no sense… it would only be a great result if the townie holding the switch didn’t use it. If they did… both switches being used would make the power active. The only one that wouldn’t go through is the one you were holding… it wouldn’t matter though… all they would know is that every power that went through had both switches thrown… if even one other power goes through they still don’t know which switch you had. But all of this assumes the scum hold more than one switch for their own powers. I have no reason to think that is the case. I think it more likely that each faction had one kill power with an attached switch. If there are other townies with town switches I would be wrong… but given what is out in the open so far… I see no reason to assume scum each have multiple powers that are tied to switches. Why do you? Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![paulwhoisaghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e5b9ba/32.png) [@paulwhoisaghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paulwhoisaghost)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/435 "2017-01-20T05:49:23Z")
Does anyone else think this is likely the case? That each faction has three switches? One for their own power and one for a power of each opposing faction? If so, we have had three switches claim… I tend to put them in the townie column barring a counterclaim or further info. I think each mafia faction had their own conversation on this matter privately. And wouldn’t have needed to take the risk of claiming to further discussion on this topic. I think brewha, capt, and crys should consider block voting toDay while they are all still around… Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![paulwhoisaghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e5b9ba/32.png) [@paulwhoisaghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paulwhoisaghost)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/436 "2017-01-20T05:55:01Z")
@Brewha , I’m sorry… for some reason I assumed you to be female… what is your preferred pronoun. Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![LightFoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LightFoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LightFoot)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/437 "2017-01-20T05:57:17Z")
> [@paulwhoisaghost](#): > > Does anyone else think this is likely the case? That each faction has three switches? One for their own power and one for a power of each opposing faction? If so, we have had three switches claim… I tend to put them in the townie column barring a counterclaim or further info. I think each mafia faction had their own conversation on this matter privately. And wouldn’t have needed to take the risk of claiming to further discussion on this topic. I think brewha, capt, and crys should consider block voting toDay while they are all still around… This statement has some merit. Not sure about the voting bit, but the rest is viable ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/438 "2017-01-20T06:04:08Z")
I’m more likely to believe that the switches are power specific, rather than faction specific. Or maybe power category specific. So protection roles vs doc specific. Role blockers vs zoning guy. ---
**Author:** ![nesta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a4c791/32.png) [@nesta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nesta)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/439 "2017-01-20T06:05:42Z")
> [@paulwhoisaghost](#): > > Why is everyone being redirected? I’m on my phone with 0 redirects. Are you using Tapatalk on your phone? > > Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk I suspect Tapatalk isn’t as susceptible to the malware. With Chrome on Android I am constantly getting the Antivirus malware redirect, which makes keeping up on my phone nearly impossible. I tried the Ghostery browser (with stock settings) based on the recommendation in this thread but it also had the same issue. If anyone else is having this issue and doesn’t want to use Tapatalk, I disabled javascript in Ghostery and I think that will finally solve the problem. Other sites will probably have issues if you try them in Ghostery without javacript, but if you only use it for SDMB this should avoid all the malware. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/440 "2017-01-20T06:09:39Z")
Most sdmb I rarely get the redirect. BUT getting to the game thread or refreshing sometimes takes 6 tries. Just disabled javascript, we’ll see how that goes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425.md?page=23)