# Mafia Reunion - Day Two **URL:** \ **Category:** Thread Games\ **Created:** [January 17, 2017, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425 "2017-01-17T22:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/101 "2017-01-18T16:13:15Z")
I know that post has no analysis, btw. Just some thoughts for now. Has anyone been maintaining a full vote/unvote record? I want to look at Colby’s train more closely. ---
**Author:** ![AngeloftheNorth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angelofthenorth/32/19559_2.png) [@AngeloftheNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngeloftheNorth)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/102 "2017-01-18T16:13:37Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > First, This post is pinging me. You just put an “official FOS” on half the remaining players. > > I’ll bet my bottom dollar that there are several scum on the Colby train. The “slips” that people were latching onto were weak - I’m honestly surprised that he got as many votes as he did. > > I’ve been thinking about the difficulties that the double scumteam setup has been giving us. It lets each scum team do “real” hunting, which is troublesome. But it also means that any given train is more likely than normal to be riddled with scum, because the teams can’t coordinate with one another to keep the scum/train ratio low enough to be safe. > > Even though they get to hunt for real, they’re still working with a huge pool of “them” vs. a tiny pool of “us.”\* And it’s a larger “them” pool than it would normally be for a game this size. > > So what does that mean? I think it means that we can go after trains harder than we otherwise might. > > In other words, I think a **lynched townie** is likely to have more scum in the vote count than we might expect from a normal game. > > I also think that, at least for the moment, it’s helpful to think of scum as a single team with two independent cells rather than two teams with opposing victory conditions. > > \*From their perspective, not mine. Don’t lynch me for shifts in person, you pedantic jerks. I’m pretty sure he’s joking about the FOS on everyone. I share your thoughts about the dual scum teams, up to the last one. Why do you think it’s helpful to think of them as a single team? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/103 "2017-01-18T16:17:49Z")
> [@AngeloftheNorth](#): > > Why do you think it’s helpful to think of them as a single team? Because I think that it’s creating an unnecessary signal:noise ratio for the most part. It’s not relevant to us (at the moment) that they’re actively fighting against one another. The only really important detail to consider is that they’re unaware of the other team’s identities. This may be a distinction without a difference for most people, but it’s a helpful shift in perspective for me. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/104 "2017-01-18T16:20:47Z")
> [@AngeloftheNorth](#): > > I still don’t think your vote on me makes sense and it still bothers me that you’re reiterating suspicion of Lakai I today when he flipped town. I was giving a full rundown of the suspicions I had Day One, roughly in order of suspicion. I was obviously wrong on Lakai. I’m not sure what leaving him off the list would accomplish, other than potentially distorting my track record. ---
**Author:** ![brewha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@brewha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brewha)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/105 "2017-01-18T16:28:43Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > I know that post has no analysis, btw. Just some thoughts for now. > > Has anyone been maintaining a full vote/unvote record? I want to look at Colby’s train more closely. TexCat did back on page one. I haven’t checked to verify it’s accuracy, though. > [@TexCat](#): > > And for those who want to see the unvotes. > > **Normal Phase(1):** [del]Texcat[29-91][/del], Johnny Bravo[36], [del]Pleonast[241-511][/del] > \*\*Angel(3): \*\*[del]SNF[37-157][/del], Zeriel[413], TotalLost[493], [del]JSGoddess[503-716][/del], BoozySquid[546],[del] Septimus[981-993][/del],[del] Lakai[1006-1209][/del] > **Johnny Bravo(0):** [del]Meeko[41-130], BuffTabby[259-1094], Septimus[488-659][/del] > **ToeJam(15):** CaptKlutz[57-347,796], Sunny[113], Normal[147-322,1011], Hooker[184], Sinjin[200], Sachertorte[534], Lakai[775-1006,1209], ProfP[1057], BillMc[1152], Septimus[1155], Biotop[1178], Guiri[1182], Ender[1195], Chronos[1197], SNF[1205] > **Pleonast(1):** [del]Septimus[85-106][/del], ThingFish[794],[del] Normal[824-1011][/del], [del]Nesta[1187-1187][/del] > **Colby(6):** Texcat[91],[del] Guiri[101-977], Septimus[106-231,993-1034], Meeko[130-1082][/del], ToeJam[132], [del]HockeyMonkey[152-1101][/del], [del]Lakai[154-775][/del], Suburban[162-541,1026], [del]Diggit[249-264][/del], Hawkeye[350], [del]Nanook[455-1208][/del], Brewha[683], Pleonast[841] > **Meeko(0):** [del]Drain[94-888][/del] > **Drain(0):** [del]Angel[97-542][/del] > **BoozySquid(0):**[del] Normal[102-147], SNF[157-295], Angel[542-1078], Biotop[709-957][/del] > **JSGoddess(0):** [del]Chronos[183-917][/del] > **Hawkeye(0):** [del]BoozySquid[188-540][/del] > \*\*Capt Klutz(0): \*\*[del]HoopyFrood[195-480], Drain[889-1108][/del] > **Septimus(1):** Ender[243], [del]TotalLost[273-493], Normal[322-714], Colby[335-946], CaptKlutz[347-796], HoopyFrood[480-736], Pleonast[511-841][/del] > **Lakai(17):** InnerSticker[257],[del] SNF[295-1205][/del], RedSkeez[319], PlumPudding[647], Lightfoot[883], Koldanar[900], [del]Guiri[977-1182][/del], HoopyFrood[1031], Angel[1078], Meeko[1082], HockeyMonkey[1102], Drain[1108], RavenThief[1109], JSGoddess[1129], MHaye[1176], Nesta[1187], BuffTabby[1194], Cookies[1206], Nanook[1208] > \*\*SNF(0): \*\*Diggit[264] > **Biotop(0):** [del]PlumPudding[412-470][/del] > **Prof(0)P:** [del]PlumPudding[472-647], Septimus[659-981][/del] > **Ender(0):** [del]ProfP[528-545][/del] > **PlumPudding(0):** [del]Suburban[541-1026][/del] > **Koldanar(0):**[del] ProfP[545-908][/del] > **TotalLost(0):**[del] RavenThief[679-912], JSGoddess[716-1129][/del] > \*\*Texcat(1): \*\*Scathach[758] > **Scathach(0):** [del]HoopyFrood[798-1031][/del] > **ThingFish(0):** [del]Chronos[917-1197][/del] > **Brewha(1):** Colby[946] > **Chronos(0):** [del]Biotop[957-1178][/del] > > Notes: Other vote counts show that Scathach voted Lakai in 1031, but that was actually the post where Hoopy unvoted Scathach and voted Lakai. ---
**Author:** ![AngeloftheNorth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angelofthenorth/32/19559_2.png) [@AngeloftheNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngeloftheNorth)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/106 "2017-01-18T16:28:50Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I was giving a full rundown of the suspicions I had Day One, roughly in order of suspicion. I was obviously wrong on Lakai. I’m not sure what leaving him off the list would accomplish, other than potentially distorting my track record. Okay. I have seen scum do this in order to pretend to look more transparent. I have never seen town do it, so I’m suspicious. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/107 "2017-01-18T16:33:20Z")
> [@AngeloftheNorth](#): > > Okay. I have seen scum do this in order to pretend to look more transparent. I have never seen town do it, so I’m suspicious. I’ve never before tried to lay out every suspicion I had in a whole Day. It’s actually harder than I expected to recapture what I was thinking when something hit me wrong. I guess that’s a good argument for always dropping a note in real time when we get pinged. ---
**Author:** ![Hockey\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a183cd/32.png) [@Hockey\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hockey_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/108 "2017-01-18T16:41:08Z")
> [@Plumpudding](#): > > Sorry, I was referring to TexCat, not you. She knows Colby, but went ahead and voted him anyway, for what many of us felt was pretty consistent with how we know Colby. I hate this here. If \*\*Colby \*\*had turned out scum we would all be hootin and hollerin and pattin ourselves on the back. I have to base my votes on the content of the game because it has been so many years since I’ve played I don’t remember how any specific players post or play as scum vs town. \*\*Colby’s \*\*posts were flat out scummy, so much so that he may have been vigged for it. (If I am interpreting the night events correctly.) Going back now and saying essentially “you should have known he was town 'cause he always posts that way” is disingenuous at best. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/109 "2017-01-18T16:46:55Z")
I asked Pleo in the night part of the D1 thread if he was going to continue throwing out multiple votes. The reason I asked is because the choice to formulate a list of scummy looking people as votes is confusing for me and I assume confusing for the mods and I don’t particularly care for people making vote tracking any harder than it already is. Is it scummy behavior? I don’t know, but I know that I don’t like it. I hated the arguments against colby. They reminded me too much of a mini-mafia game where I was mislynched for using alpha to refer to the godfather when many of the players were new and only familiar with mafia terminology as opposed to werewolf. Barring something exceptional, I do not care for arguments based on typos or ‘slipups’. I think hunting in the pool of colby voters will net us a fair number of scum. I always think Texcat is scummy. I’m starting to wonder if Angel and Boozy aren’t putting on a show for us. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/110 "2017-01-18T16:47:29Z")
> [@Mafia Reunion - Day One](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-one/776577/1431): > > after reading the responses from Lakai later in the Day- you don’t see how at least some of the voters felt justified? > > fwiw I did correct your comment re: my vote there- did you see it? post 1203 I wanted to bring this over from the other thread because I couldn’t comment there. I absolutely see some legitimate reasons why you might vote for Lakai. I also realize that many - if not most - voters for Lakai were probably Town just given the numbers in this game. We’re playing with imperfect knowledge here and I’m not advocating that someone be accused of being scum simply because they voted for someone who happened to flip Town. But the case Lakai was, at its core, pretty crappy. It was a very easy bandwagon to latch onto and I’m certain we’ll find scum if we look there. Maybe including you? Who knows? Time will tell. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/111 "2017-01-18T16:49:00Z")
> [@Hockey\_Monkey](#): > > Going back now and saying essentially “you should have known he was town 'cause he always posts that way” is disingenuous at best. I think it’s a dangerous way to think/play, especially when it’s used to try to sway other players. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/112 "2017-01-18T16:52:17Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Because I think that it’s creating an unnecessary signal:noise ratio for the most part. It’s not relevant to us (at the moment) that they’re actively fighting against one another. The only really important detail to consider is that they’re unaware of the other team’s identities. > > This may be a distinction without a difference for most people, but it’s a helpful shift in perspective for me. Hmm. Part of the “two scum teams” consideration for me is the idea that people will be able to be significantly less visible with conventional scum tells and PIS–a wolf after all can freely hunt mafia as though they’re town without ever cluttering up the voting record, which has some impact for those of us who primarily (more so on later days) hunt in the voting patterns. ---
**Author:** ![Plumpudding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Plumpudding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plumpudding)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/113 "2017-01-18T16:52:25Z")
> [@Hockey\_Monkey](#): > > I hate this here. If \*\*Colby \*\*had turned out scum we would all be hootin and hollerin and pattin ourselves on the back. I have to base my votes on the content of the game because it has been so many years since I’ve played I don’t remember how any specific players post or play as scum vs town. \*\*Colby’s \*\*posts were flat out scummy, so much so that he may have been vigged for it. (If I am interpreting the night events correctly.) Going back now and saying essentially “you should have known he was town 'cause he always posts that way” is disingenuous at best. You’re misinterpreting me, or mischaracterizing what I said. This was directly aimed at TexCat, specifically. TexCat has recent experience playing with Colby. She did not address Colby-meta Day 1. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/114 "2017-01-18T16:57:50Z")
To be quite honest, I’m not understanding the distinction you are making, Plumpudding. ---
**Author:** ![Hockey\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a183cd/32.png) [@Hockey\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hockey_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/115 "2017-01-18T17:19:44Z")
> [@Plumpudding](#): > > You’re misinterpreting me, or mischaracterizing what I said. This was directly aimed at TexCat, specifically. TexCat has recent experience playing with Colby. She did not address Colby-meta Day 1. My point stands regardless. Using meta reasons like playstyle in past games of a dead player to build a case against a living one raises my eyebrow. It doesn’t matter whether she addressed Colby-meta or not…you are. Using meta info to inform your suspicions on a player based on their own meta data is not in my opinion a scum tell, but using the meta data from one player to accuse another could be, especially when you have the hindsight of death info to make yourself credible. It’s the difference of “Hey he always plays like that, so him doing that in this game isn’t scummy” vs “Hey he always plays like that so you should have known he wasn’t scum”. ---
**Author:** ![Plumpudding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Plumpudding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plumpudding)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/116 "2017-01-18T17:21:23Z")
The distiction being, my comment was aimed at one player, not a whole wagon? Anyway, that comment does not sum up my entire case on TexCat, it’s one point. Do I think it the point matters? Yes, to a certain degree it does. On meta in general: Do I like to base my entire impression of a player on meta? No, I don’t like that (sometimes it happens, sue me). Does meta influence how I read a player? Yes. Is that valid? IMO, yes. Is meta still valid, if the rest does not have that meta? Yes. Should I share this with the rest of the group? If it plays a part in how I read a player, of course I should. ---
**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/117 "2017-01-18T17:26:30Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **Colby** was an obvious choice for the Vig and a lousy choice for the Wolves, so absent any evidence to the contrary, I assume it was him vigged and **Suburban** wolfed. I don’t think he gave any indications of his role, which would mean that the wolves choosing him was just dumb luck. And it hurts us significantly to be down two investigators so early: One, we could replace with the Understudy, but now one’s gone completely. > > As to why he was chosen, I think (unless I missed a change somewhere) he ended the day with his vote on **Colby** , so that definitely wasn’t it. He wasn’t the most prolific poster left, but he was pretty high, with **Meeko** , **Angel** , and **Plumpudding** ahead of him. I can understand why the Scum might not have targeted **Meeko** or **Angel** , both of whom they probably considered lynchable, but I’m not sure off the top of my head about **Plumpudding**. It’s possible that they skipped over him because he was one of their own, or it’s possible that they just considered **Suburban** a greater threat as a player. > > I’m honestly a little surprised that there were only two kills. We’ve had a full cycle now, with five deaths, and all of them can be accounted for. I would have expected there to be a third-party serial killer out there somewhere. Though of course we can’t rule out the possibility: Two killers might have targeted the same person, or someone might have been successfully protected, or we might have a serial killer who can choose not to kill, and so on. > > On the topic of **Pleonast** ’s casting of multiple votes, even though only one would count, I think that his fault (and that of all of the rest of us) is in doing too few, not too many. I read that as “I find all of these people sufficiently suspect that I would cast a vote for them if I could, and the only reason I’m not voting for the others is that I’m only allowed to do one”. But the thing is, there are at least 14 people in this game that we _should_ suspect, and getting out information about that helps Town in the long run. I think that we should all be striving, not just to vote for one person, but to also make clear somehow a significant number of other people we consider worthy of votes. We don’t necessarily need to format them as votes, like **Pleonast** did, but there should be a lot more FOSes flying around than there are. As I catch up with the tail of N1 and beginning of D2, I agree with this post. The other alternative motivation for SP’s presumed killing at the hands of scum is the potential that they found a breadcrumb. Also agreed on Pleonast. The formatting of his suspicions is odd, but his thoughts and accusations are coming through clearly and his vote is being counted. ---
**Author:** ![Plumpudding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Plumpudding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plumpudding)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/118 "2017-01-18T17:30:59Z")
> [@Hockey\_Monkey](#): > > My point stands regardless. Using meta reasons like playstyle in past games of a dead player to build a case against a living one raises my eyebrow. It doesn’t matter whether she addressed Colby-meta or not…you are. > > Using meta info to inform your suspicions on a player based on their own meta data is not in my opinion a scum tell, but using the meta data from one player to accuse another could be, especially when you have the hindsight of death info to make yourself credible. > > It’s the difference of “Hey he always plays like that, so him doing that in this game isn’t scummy” vs “Hey he always plays like that so you should have known he wasn’t scum”. “Hey, I’ve seen this before.” and “You have also seen this before.” Go back and read my posts re: Colby, if you’re uncertain about my position on it. Btw, you’re ascribing me with a certainty in our characterization of me which I have not displayed myself. ---
**Author:** ![Koldanar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@Koldanar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koldanar)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/119 "2017-01-18T18:04:29Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > ETA: …don’t Lynch the Loud. Yet. I agree - I assume that Suburban got targeted because of the post count, absent any suspicions (and I certainly didn’t pick anything up from his posting). Those of us (and I include myself) that aren’t posting enough aren’t helping much, so we should get louder. I’m still catching up, but to those who didn’t post on day 1 - what’s your reasoning? I can see life getting in the way on weekends, but to not make a day 1 vote at all doesn’t help anyone here. ---
**Author:** ![Hockey\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a183cd/32.png) [@Hockey\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hockey_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/120 "2017-01-18T18:39:06Z")
> [@Plumpudding](#): > > “Hey, I’ve seen this before.” and “You have also seen this before.” Go back and read my posts re: Colby, if you’re uncertain about my position on it. Btw, you’re ascribing me with a certainty in our characterization of me which I have not displayed myself. I’m just saying regardless of who is the finger pointer and who is finger pointee, that this kind of reasoning is dubious. A “You’ve seen this before so you should know better” argument is, in my opinion, ridiculous to even bring up. I’m not specifically addressing any player or argument for or against any other player. Take the player names out of it. You don’t know what any other player remembers about how someone else has played in the past. And that’s all I got to say about that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425.md?page=7)