# Mafia Reunion - Day Two **URL:** \ **Category:** Thread Games\ **Created:** [January 17, 2017, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425 "2017-01-17T22:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 67
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/1321 "2017-01-24T17:56:48Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > I’m sorry I’ve been AWOL this past week. I completely suck and I have no excuse. I promise that as Day 3 starts I’m going to be more active in this game. > > I want to talk about a few things though: > > > [@Pleonast](#): > > > > Conversely, we need to get 14 lynches correct to win. > > > > I can’t see Town being required to lynch 5 more third parties on top of that. But, we really need to see those players publicly claim so. > > Our win condition isn’t to kill third party. It doesn’t matter how many 3rd parties there are. Town wins “if at any checkpoint (Dawn or Dusk) all 14 Scum players (Wolves + Mafia) are dead.” > > That said, I don’t trust **Crys75** and I don’t think anyone else should either. The list of Role PMs don’t include ones for 3rd party. There are only a couple of investigative roles and, best case scenario, we find out Crys is being truthful in 3rd party claim but NOT what his win condition is. > > In other words, it would be extremely simple to lie and say your win condition has nothing to do with and won’t interfere with Town’s win condition. There’s no possible way we can confirm that. I’ve played in games where a 3rd party claims early with that exact story and the end result was that they were quite truthful about their status and very much lying about what it took for them to win. Well that is the dilemma. But if they have a win condition that can interfere with ours, that means we do need to lynch them before we lynch all the Scum. Thus increasing our lynch burden substantially. That doesn’t seem plausible if there is 5 of them. But what if there’s fewer, maybe 2? Then eliminating them is not unreasonable. This is the reasoning why Town needs to see all LUTHA claim sooner rather than later. Having 5 players saying “yes, I’m LUTHA” and cross-confirming each other would completely remove them as a threat, in mine eyes. Five is the number claimed and so having five actually claiming would virtually confirm them (just like claimed Masons, one would have to die at some point to confirm the group as a whole). I’d advocate lynching anyone trying to lynch LUTHA at that point, since they’d be threatening only to Scum at that point. But either fewer or more than that indicates someone is lying. And we’d have to start lynching claimed LUTHA once we have a few Scum eliminated. ---
**Author:** ![Crys75](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3da27b/32.png) [@Crys75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crys75)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/1322 "2017-01-24T17:58:36Z")
> [@AngeloftheNorth](#): > > Yes, thank you, that’s exactly my concern and it’s a big concern to me because I’ve seen it done many times. Yeah but so many players have said they don’t like to play using metagaming but so many of us do. Which is why I have been telling ya’ll to kill me for confirmation of the others before you go forcing them to claim. ---
**Author:** ![Crys75](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3da27b/32.png) [@Crys75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crys75)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/1323 "2017-01-24T18:02:08Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Well that is the dilemma. But if they have a win condition that can interfere with ours, that means we do need to lynch them before we lynch all the Scum. Thus increasing our lynch burden substantially. That doesn’t seem plausible if there is 5 of them. But what if there’s fewer, maybe 2? Then eliminating them is not unreasonable. > > This is the reasoning why Town needs to see all LUTHA claim sooner rather than later. Having 5 players saying “yes, I’m LUTHA” and cross-confirming each other would completely remove them as a threat, in mine eyes. Five is the number claimed and so having five actually claiming would virtually confirm them (just like claimed Masons, one would have to die at some point to confirm the group as a whole). I’d advocate lynching anyone trying to lynch LUTHA at that point, since they’d be threatening only to Scum at that point. > > But either fewer or more than that indicates someone is lying. And we’d have to start lynching claimed LUTHA once we have a few Scum eliminated. Yeah but it makes it easier for your vig to take us out one by one and totally eliminates our chance of winning at all. I am totally 100% against this. I mean if I were vig if i had an unknown pool of 20 players and then 5 known third parties I would pick them off one at a time unless I had a super strong suspicion about others. I mean they could start picking of the lurkers, but there are no guarantees they will hit scum also. It’s common sense. I offered to work with town, and I plan on doing so if I am left alive, however for the safety of my teams win condition I can’t have the rest of us coming out and claiming. That is a for sure lose for LUTHA. ---
**Author:** ![Crys75](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3da27b/32.png) [@Crys75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crys75)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/1324 "2017-01-24T18:03:46Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Great minds think alike:). I disagree that there is any urgent need to lynch one of them, I’m hoping the Vig or scum will resolve that for us. But if not, yeah, at some point we need to do that. Again I have offered to be the scapegoat for the group, however, you didn’t lynch me yesterday. I’m still here cause I’m taking attention away from the scum at the moment. I do think you need a resolve to move on and start killing scum. At this rate however that likely won’t happen, unless the vig pulls the trigger on one of us tonight ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/1325 "2017-01-24T18:08:06Z")
I will be around for Day reasonably on time, but late a bit. Consider 3:00 a “dawn” period. All actions due by 3:00, though. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/1326 "2017-01-24T18:23:58Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Well that is the dilemma. But if they have a win condition that can interfere with ours, that means we do need to lynch them before we lynch all the Scum. Thus increasing our lynch burden substantially. That doesn’t seem plausible if there is 5 of them. But what if there’s fewer, maybe 2? Then eliminating them is not unreasonable. The rules state “All third party roles are closed. However, the rules shown here are absolute in all cases; no hidden element will contradict or supersede anything explicitly stated in the rules.” It also states “Some third party players may have exclusive win conditions (ie, win conditions that preclude Town and/or Scum wins), while others may be nonexclusive (that is, able to win with any side).” Finally, if there’s a simultaneous win between Town and 3rd party, Town wins. So killing 3rd party members would potentially stop a 3rd Party win condition…but since we don’t know what that condition is right now (and I assume still won’t even after a kill), this won’t provide us with any information. But killing a 3rd party also gets us no closer to our goal of winning as Town. So I have no problem investigating them, or grilling them, or distrusting what they say and ignoring their feedback. Maybe even Vigging them if that’s what the Vig wants to do. But lynching them will bring us no closer to our win condition. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/1327 "2017-01-24T18:24:16Z")
> [@Crys75](#): > > Yeah but it makes it easier for your vig to take us out one by one and totally eliminates our chance of winning at all. I am totally 100% against this. I mean if I were vig if i had an unknown pool of 20 players and then 5 known third parties I would pick them off one at a time unless I had a super strong suspicion about others. > > I mean they could start picking of the lurkers, but there are no guarantees they will hit scum also. It’s common sense. I offered to work with town, and I plan on doing so if I am left alive, however for the safety of my teams win condition I can’t have the rest of us coming out and claiming. That is a for sure lose for LUTHA. If the Vig is killing confirmed third parties, they are playing to lose, by advancing the Scum win conditions and not advancing the Town win condition. Yeah, it’s possible the Vig could sabotage us, but I wouldn’t base my tactics around it. (Also note that one player alone has the switch for the Vig now. It’s quite possible we’ll see no more Vig kills.) But when players say “there’s 5 of us” and yet only 2 have been produced, that greatly weakens your claims. Are you lying about your numbers? We can’t tell. Your actual numbers is the part of your claim that can be verified. The longer it remains unverified, the more it looks like you’re lying to us. ---
**Author:** ![Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook_of_the_North_Shore)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/1328 "2017-01-24T18:27:05Z")
I somewhat agree with Pleo. That is, it is unlikely the Lutha are a threat to town if there are in fact 5 of them. That’s asking a lot. As it stands however, it is not possible to know for certain that 5 is true. So him asking for the other members to claim makes sense. But I can certainly understand Crys75’s worry. So how about a middle ground? Currently there are 2 Lutha claimed. Your claimed win con is that you all win if any 1 is still alive at the end. 2 is a small enough number that it’s entirely within the realm of reason that your win con is a lie and is in fact exclusive. However 3 or 4 strains that reasonableness to the breaking point. So 1 or 2 of the hidden Lutha should/could claim, which would provide reassurance of your overall honesty while still giving you protection in the form of 1 or 2 hidden members. I would suggest waiting until after Daybreak to make any decision of course. The results of Night actions can change things. ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/1329 "2017-01-24T18:32:31Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Crys’ quoted role pm says “Alignment: 3rd Party (Non-Hostile”. Whether that “Non-Hostile” modifier actually appears in the flip when one of them dies is going to be the major factor determining whether I trust them. Pardon me if I don’t entirely trust Crys’ posting of her own PM. > [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Great minds think alike:). I disagree that there is any urgent need to lynch one of them, I’m hoping the Vig or scum will resolve that for us. But if not, yeah, at some point we need to do that. I doubt the scum will do it for us. Hopefully the vig will, but that’s all complicated by Crys having the Vig switch (and god knows who else has the other vig switch.) I like the idea of using the second lynch for a day on them, rather than shooting blindly into the pool of players. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/1330 "2017-01-24T18:32:46Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > So I have no problem investigating them, or grilling them, or distrusting what they say and ignoring their feedback. Maybe even Vigging them if that’s what the Vig wants to do. But lynching them will bring us no closer to our win condition. I agree completely. Lynching or Vigging them is a huge mistake at this point in the game. However, if by midgame, we’ve found no evidence about them beyond the two who’ve claimed so far, I think the possibility that those two have lied to us will be great. And while our win condition doesn’t require us to eliminate third parties, allowing two claimed third parties who are likely liars to survive looks untenable to me. Which is why I’ll really need to be able to count exactly five LUTHA players at some point (to confirm a claim they make) before I’ll consider them a non-threat after midgame. ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/1331 "2017-01-24T18:33:36Z")
Sorry. Misread above. Ignore my first response there. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/1332 "2017-01-24T18:34:51Z")
> [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](#): > > I doubt the scum will do it for us. Hopefully the vig will, but that’s all complicated by Crys having the Vig switch (and god knows who else has the other vig switch.) I like the idea of using the second lynch for a day on them, rather than shooting blindly into the pool of players. I’ve been skimming, but I though **brewha** had the Vig switch. Am I confused, or you? ---
**Author:** ![Plumpudding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Plumpudding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plumpudding)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/1333 "2017-01-24T18:39:57Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Oh-kay. Not to be too blunt, but we have 40+ people playing _Mafia_ who have successfully managed to lead Town into repeated lynches of… Town. This isn’t unusual in this game. I’m looking for ways to improve Town’s chances of actually hitting Scum. Because all Scum has to do in this particular game is lay low and automatically escape lynch votes. You’re not blunt enough!🙂 You know my position on LtL, I think. I’m not against it. What I am against, is to focus solely on that. Why is your focus more or less only on lurkers? Especially at this point, where you yourself admit you don’t have a big enough data-set to separate the wheat from the chav. ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/1334 "2017-01-24T18:43:13Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I’ve been skimming, but I though **brewha** had the Vig switch. Am I confused, or you? It’s entirely possible it’s me. The whole episode is kind of a single mass in my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/1335 "2017-01-24T18:43:32Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > Haven’t finished the thread yet, so not sure if anyone has brought this up, but why the unforced claim? If true, you just shrunk the pool in which the remaining Town power roles could be hiding. > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk **No. I get to claim. That’s the only thing thing I get, and you won’t take even that from me.** . . . Either all claiming is bad, or no claiming is bad. But I don’t think our group will ever, ever, EVER get that. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/1336 "2017-01-24T18:46:59Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > I 100% disagree with your post. You should go into every single game expecting to be vanilla town - even a game of 55 players. > > As a sidenote, this was one of the coherent long-form posts you’ve created all game. Just write more like that and less like, say, post #1250. Really? What is your issue with 1250? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/1337 "2017-01-24T18:53:21Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I’ve been skimming, but I though **brewha** had the Vig switch. Am I confused, or you? Brewha had the vig switch. Captain Klutz and Crys each claimed a switch that controls a [redacted] power. CKs was controlling a scum power role. I don’t know if Crys ever specified the alignment of the power they controlled. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/1338 "2017-01-24T18:55:49Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I’ve been skimming, but I though **brewha** had the Vig switch. Am I confused, or you? Brewha had the Vig switch. See, for example, [post=19936239]D02.0562[/post]. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/1339 "2017-01-24T18:59:56Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > Either all claiming is bad, or no claiming is bad. > > But I don’t think our group will ever, ever, EVER get that. :rolleyes: Do you not understand how your claiming, if truthful, has helped scum to eliminate you as a potential target? You are correct that no one can take claiming away from you. That doesn’t mean you somehow get a pass when you screw it up and claim inappropriately. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2017, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425/1340 "2017-01-24T19:03:08Z")
> [@Hockey\_Monkey](#): > > Oh and **Meeko** , > > Eep, Opp, Ork, Ah Ah. > [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](#): > > Ching chang walla walla bing bang! > [@Hockey\_Monkey](#): > > Rut-roh Reorge. Better ruck next time. That would have been Ooo Eee Oo Ah Ah. > > **Meeko** , see how using obscure references can muddy up your meaning? > > Eep Opp Ork Ah Ah (that means I love you) - Jet Screamer - The Jetsons **Ah. Ok. You guys would rather me reference a cartoon from over 50 years ago, that only had 3 seasons, and 75 episodes, instead of a cartoon from 18 years ago, that is still in production, currently sitting on 205 episodes.** I’m sorry, but you just made my point for me, that my references are less obtuse as opposed to more. Merits of Jetsons V. SpongeBob notwithstanding. :eek: Oh, and if you skipped over Yabba Dabba Do … If you consciously said “No, not Flintstones, he’ll know that” that then means I get to quote Brandy and Mr.Whiskers or King of the Pride… _ **SARMOTI!** _ Ting Tang. … And the Ting part immediately follows the Ooo Eee… But that’s a cartoon (the song at least) from 60 years ago. And I didn’t see the references couched with anything else. If it’s just a reference for reference sake… And not even attempt at connecting to the game… I’m not sure you can level a question of clarity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425.md?page=66) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-reunion-day-two/777425.md?page=68)