# Mafia: Simpletown **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 27, 2008, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-simpletown/442974 "2008-03-27T21:40:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-simpletown/442974/661 "2008-04-10T18:02:38Z")
[QUOTE=fluiddruid] I liked this point a lot better when I made it myself, upthread. [/QUOTE] The point is, you use his discussion of the detective as a reason to vote for him, but then you go on later to talk about it like maybe it’s not such a scum tell. You’re trying to have it both ways, and you can’t. > [@](#): > > You’re confusing the days. I only did an assessment of Day 1’s posts. He posted an awful lot on Day One, and it was relatively substantive (especially for a newbie) - a lot of suspicion was cast at different players, and he voted/unvoted several times. This didn’t jibe with **NAF** ’s assessment of him lacking posts all game, so I said so. But, again as I’ve mentioned upthread, there was a change and I thought it was worth asking (basically I was fishing for him to post). When he posted so fast, but yet saying he was so busy - I find this suspicious enough to change my vote. His response on the topic was weak. Again, as I asked - do you think it is not so? Does nobody else think that posting about how horribly busy you are 7 minutes after being asked is really most likely to be a coincidence?! Exactly, it’s a coincidence. If he’s scum, then you’re right. But what if he’s town and what he said is true, how’s he suppose to defend himself. You’re looking entirely at the action and ignoring any motivation. Seriously, do you think a scum is sitting there, merely reading the board at 8:40 PM, panics, and HAS to respond right away? Trying to deduce motivation from timing just doesn’t make sense. And even if you ARE right that he’s lurking, you’re ASSUMING that lurking is necessarily a scum tell. Another classic newbie power role tell is lurking, being afraid to post anything, because you’re afraid you’ll give away extra information. So, even if you ARE right, you’ve not put forth any sort of information to differentiate scummy lurking, from power role lurking, or even simple intimidated vanilla townie lurking. Even if you are right that he panicked and had to respond, it could just as easily be a power role trying to prevent himself from being lynched as a scum trying to prevent himself from being lynched. Finally, and this is directed to **pedescribe** , if, per chance, you are fabricating your busy schedule, shame on you. I think using real life reasons, or making them up, to avoid suspicion is very much outside the spirit of the game. As such, I’d tend to believe he was telling the truth, especially when there’s a sudden change like that. Real life DOES get in the way sometimes, and no one should be using it as either an excuse to generate suspicion or avoid it. > [@](#): > > Frankly I could give less than half a damn about who gets credit. But while it’s admittedly most important that we’re voting for the right players, it’s also extremely important that we’re voting for the right **reasons**. I don’t think NAF’s reasoning on his vote was good and that’s something that should be considered as the game proceeds. It’s very easy to make a statement that turns out not to be true and people quote it (heck, I did it myself Day 1 regarding Mad’s posting record). Pedescribe deserved to be defended about his accused lack of posting on day 1. That doesn’t mean he’s not scum and defending a player that something lobbed at them was untrue doesn’t mean they don’t deserve a vote based on different criteria. You’re missing the point here. You disagree with **NAF** ’s reasoning again here. The point is, credit IS important. A good example of this is when **Idle Thoughts** changed his vote to lynch **Kat** in MV when both were scum. He gained a lot of townie cred that he used to almost get away with a mason claim later (and probably would have if **MHaye** didn’t have additional information). By being able to assign credit to yourself, if he shows up scum, you can go “See! I told you!” and if he turns up town, you can adjust the blame to **NAF** and point out where you disagree with him. You’re setting it up so you can either get townie cred if the town likes the lynch or avoid suspicion if we think it was scummy. > [@](#): > > It’s very difficult to enumerate in the first few days why someone is scummy. I’m doing the best I can to give specifics, though frankly it seems like most of that is being ignored. > > So, if Mad is town and I’m scum - why distance myself from the kill? Doesn’t it make more sense NOT to change my vote in this case? I think it would make a lot more sense that we were both scum or something like that, but why waffle on a vote that I started? Of course I’m perfectly aware that swapping votes after pushing for a vote for one player is going to generate interest. It always does - active players always get votes, and I’m sure I’ll get votes. I don’t think I’ll even live past Day 3 (I never have, frankly). But I’m going to push as hard as I can for Town until that time, and that means pointing out the truth of the matter even if it doesn’t always support my position (as with pedescribe’s defense yet vote). Swapping votes is not scummy, we’re all going to do it. What matters is the manner in which you swapped the vote. You were driving his lynch for most of the Day on some pretty wishy-washy evidence, but you’re quick to change it when you see an opportunity to justify a change. The other point is, the justification for that vote, in and of itself, is flimsy precisely because you set yourself up to have it either way. > [@](#): > > Fine, but if I show up dead I hope you’ll reconsider. Not that I think I’m a likely night-kill (there are better candidates) but still. Uh huh… nice try. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-simpletown/442974/662 "2008-04-10T18:10:05Z")
[QUOTE=fluiddruid] You know, **Blaster** , you’re starting to ping me. Calling my post “blatant misrepresentation” even though our reasoning is nearly identical is bullshit and either you’re just trying to convince yourself that I’m the right votee or there’s something else going on. It’s not “blatant misrepresentation”. Scum **will** and **should** try harder to get off the hook than townies,and that should always be considered - but this was a pretty mild case. I specifically said that I wasn’t calling it a scum tell, but what I do think is scummy or at least anti-town is that he voted without weighing in at all. Hence, why I asked him to defend his vote, just as everyone else should. It’s the voting record that’s our most important evidence here. Blatant misrepresentation, indeed. [/QUOTE] You, of ALL people, should know this isn’t true. In fact, it’s YOUR behavior as scum that I’ve used to explain this point to other people. Remember when you were scum in M3, your neck was ready to be stretched, and you didn’t really try to defend yourself at all. Instead, you presented a WIFOM case against **SnakesCatLady** , that kept the town distracted for Days, and ultimately led to her lynch. Or how about in the recruitment game you moderated where I wanted to save myself, but I obviously couldn’t do it at the expense of the Boss. Saying some **will** and \*\*should] try harder to get off the hook is patently false and **YOU** know better than that. The motivation for self-preservation is approximately equal, so assigning ANY sort of greater scumminess to it is deliberately misleading. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-simpletown/442974/663 "2008-04-10T18:12:23Z")
[QUOTE=fluiddruid] You know, **Blaster** , you’re starting to ping me. [/QUOTE] When did threatening players who disagree with you become acceptable? This game seems to opperate under a different set of rules than the games I have played before. People don’t have to justify votes and an argument is the basis for a de facto FOS. Strange. ---
**Author:** ![MadTheSwine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MadTheSwine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MadTheSwine)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-simpletown/442974/664 "2008-04-10T19:15:06Z")
Less than an hour to go. Again, I am pro-town. Even if **pedescribe** is town,which I hope he isn’t,I believe I can help us more than he will. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-simpletown/442974/665 "2008-04-10T19:20:57Z")
> [@fluiddruid](#): > > Basically, we have two options here - for several real life days he had limited availability, and then, all of a sudden, after my post – immediately, mind you, within 7 minutes – he responds not to all the other posts about him, but to mine, which (again) is the first one that directly asks him to respond. Or, is it that he is intentionally holding back today, and when he was specifically called out to respond, he felt that he needed to. As I said before, Fluiddruid, I was not really responding to you. I was planning to read the thread since I had last posted, then post my thoughts (like last time). As I was scrolling up, I noticed–because of the blue–Ice Cream Man’s vote for me. I read from there, noticed your direct question, and decided it was so important I had to drop everything and respond thouroughly. Now I see that was a mistake. As I’ve said before, what can I do to convince you? Or are you going to ignore everything after that and hound me, like Diomedes did faithfool? Like him, I am town. Oh, and–since I forgot: unvote zuma vote Sitnam ---
**Author:** ![MadTheSwine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MadTheSwine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MadTheSwine)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-simpletown/442974/666 "2008-04-10T19:26:50Z")
[QUOTE=pedescribe] color=red]unvote zuma[/color] color=blue]vote Sitnam[/color] [/QUOTE] This vote makes me feel a bit more comfortable.Seems like an attempt to distance himself from being tied to my lynch. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-simpletown/442974/667 "2008-04-10T19:33:59Z")
> [@MadTheSwine](#): > > I am pro-town, that is about all I know.. I will > > unvote fluiddruid > > Vote pedescribe NO. This is unacceptable. We’ve already discussed how dangerous, how irresponsible, and how scummy voting without explanation is, and I won’t have it. Even if all of the other evidence is flimsy (which it’s not, some of it is, but Mad is very suspicious), this post alone is incredibly scummy. Not only is he not giving an explanation for his vote, he’s siding with the guy who’s leading his bandwagon, who he’s shouted blue in the face with, against someone for God knows what reason. Fluiddruid, until you rise to my challenge, you are my number-two suspicion, but I can’t **not** Unvote Sitnam Vote Madtheswine ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-simpletown/442974/668 "2008-04-10T19:36:23Z")
[QUOTE=MadTheSwine] This vote makes me feel a bit more comfortable.Seems like an attempt to distance himself from being tied to my lynch. [/QUOTE] Guess not 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MadTheSwine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MadTheSwine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MadTheSwine)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-simpletown/442974/669 "2008-04-10T19:38:20Z")
[QUOTE=ShadowFacts] Guess not 😉 [/QUOTE] Definately expected. ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-simpletown/442974/670 "2008-04-10T19:40:51Z")
OK, I’ve got what I hope is a solid contribution now. Rather than try to evaluate the case against each player, which would have taken forever, I decided to analyze Day 1 voting patterns with an eye to how each vote and unvote _helped_ and _hurt_ other players. The particular formula I used I may reveal later. The results of my analysis suggest that four players operated as a team on Day 1 to shift the voting away from **fluiddruid** and onto **Menocchio** : **fluiddruid** **peekercpa** **Nanook of the North Shore** **zuma** (or if not him then **MadTheSwine** ) I suspect all our Mafia are in this list. In light of this, I would like to shift my vote to a player whose scumminess I am more sure of, but at this point all I would be doing is possibly saving **MadTheSwine** and hanging **pedescribe** , of whom I have no suspicions. So I’ll leave my vote where it is. ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-simpletown/442974/671 "2008-04-10T19:44:30Z")
[QUOTE=NAF1138] When did threatening players who disagree with you become acceptable? [/QUOTE] It’s perfectly acceptable if you’re Mafia . . . ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-simpletown/442974/672 "2008-04-10T19:48:03Z")
[QUOTE=Blaster Master] She claimed that a mod-kill was like a second lynch; this just isn’t true. A lynch carries information because there’s reasoning attached both to those who vote FOR it and those who DON’T vote for it. When someone is mod-killed, sure, we gain information about their role, but if they’re killed for not posting, we get no idea why they did what they did (if they even did anything) and, even if they’re scum, we have no way to connect them to anything. [/QUOTE] You’re even more right about this than you think you are. In the rules, it says that if a player is mod-killed for not posting, it will be done “with no public indication of role or alignment”. So if someone gets removed we get no information at all! ---
**Author:** ![MadTheSwine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MadTheSwine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MadTheSwine)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-simpletown/442974/673 "2008-04-10T19:48:37Z")
Well,I can’t wait any longer, I think some of you have picked up on it,since I left plenty of crumbs,but I AM THE DETECTIVE. I investigated **ShadowFacts** last Night and got a town result. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-simpletown/442974/674 "2008-04-10T19:53:02Z")
[QUOTE=Blaster Master] You, of ALL people, should know this isn’t true. In fact, it’s YOUR behavior as scum that I’ve used to explain this point to other people. Remember when you were scum in M3, your neck was ready to be stretched, and you didn’t really try to defend yourself at all. Instead, you presented a WIFOM case against **SnakesCatLady** , that kept the town distracted for Days, and ultimately led to her lynch. Or how about in the recruitment game you moderated where I wanted to save myself, but I obviously couldn’t do it at the expense of the Boss. Saying some **will** and \*\*should] try harder to get off the hook is patently false and **YOU** know better than that. The motivation for self-preservation is approximately equal, so assigning ANY sort of greater scumminess to it is deliberately misleading. [/QUOTE] I disagree. Ultimately there is always a better reason for a Town person to accept a lynch than a scum player. When you are scum, it is simply a numbers game (barring unusual rule sets) - you want to keep the most players the longest. Townies have very different motivations. YOU of all people should know this. Townies are most interested in **information**. Lives are expendable. (More lives, less information) Scum are most interested in **lives**. Gaining information is expendable. (Fewer information, more lives) Now, I think you’re blowing what I said way out of proportion. As I said, all players want to stay in the game and, yes, of course, every Town player knows 100% they are town. That’s _fine_. But you still haven’t touched the core of my argument. This is why you’re coming across to me as somewhat scummy. In the case of **pedescribe** , you ignored my argument and wanted to talk about what I said and how I said it. The same is applying here and you’re ignoring my argument - that **MadTheSwine** should not vote without explanation or comment. Do you really want to argue that this argument is false? No, so you’re trying to move the discussion in a different direction. Whether or not you’re willfully mischaracterizing what I said is debatable, but again, you’re taking my simple (and easily observed) comment that scum’s lives are more precious to them than townies and making it into that I have some grand case against MadTheSwine voting for pederast - when in fact I said _no such thing_! In regards to your specific comments about M3, heck, I **was** doing what I thought would get me off the hook without incriminating my team. I felt bad about getting lynched so early so I tried to do what I could to damage Town. I was a much less experienced player then and I didn’t seriously consider a role-claim because I, frankly, did not feel that I could pull it off. And regarding the recruitment game, well, you were pretty flatly hosed regardless and I think you knew it. And, heck, we saw the **Detective** vote for _themselves_ in that game, and from what I could tell, quite sincerely! If that’s not a good argument for the fact that scum self-preserves more, I don’t know what is. Again, though, I don’t think what he did was a scum tell. That’s why I didn’t say that it was. I was responding to Ice Cream Man, a (presumably) new player, about his analysis and my thoughts on it. > [@NAF1138](#): > > When did threatening players who disagree with you become acceptable? This game seems to opperate under a different set of rules than the games I have played before. People don’t have to justify votes and an argument is the basis for a de facto FOS. I didn’t threaten him. I said he was starting to ping my scumdar and he is - now that he’s posted again, I’ll state more clearly that it’s because he’s ignoring key parts of my responses, picking out bits and ripping them to pieces. People do not **have** to justify votes. But, it’s pro-Town that they do. Everything in the thread that is already posted is history. It’s fact. You can squirm and squirm and it won’t change something that’s already been said. That’s why we need to get people to post (a point nobody argues with) and what is more important to post than why they are voting the way they do? To exaggerate your question, do you think it would be better for Town or for Scum if nobody posted anything but their votes – no explanations? Of course, that’s pro-scum. The more you say, the more you can screw up. As more roles are revealed, it’s too easy to let people change the potential reasoning behind their vote to get off the hook. If you believe someone’s argument, fine, say so! It’s not scummy to be wrong. > [@pedescribe](#): > > As I’ve said before, what can I do to convince you? Or are you going to ignore everything after that and hound me, like Diomedes did faithfool? Like him, I am town. I know how you (presumably) feel, I always feel the same way when I play vanilla Town. It’s frustrating because you have no role to claim. I don’t mean to hound you. I am simply defending myself because people are trying to make me out for being scum for voting for you. I could be wrong and you’re town - the odds are you ARE town, same as for Mad. But, I’m going with my best impulse and my best impulse says you’re more likely to be scum than Mad. There’s nothing you can do to convince me otherwise than to keep playing or to find a better candidate. ---
**Author:** ![Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook_of_the_North_Shore)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-simpletown/442974/675 "2008-04-10T19:53:18Z")
[QUOTE=MadTheSwine] Well,I can’t wait any longer, I think some of you have picked up on it,since I left plenty of crumbs,but I AM THE DETECTIVE. I investigated **ShadowFacts** last Night and got a town result. [/QUOTE] Why oh why would you wait until NOW to claim? It’s almost certainly too late to save yourself. Damn it. **Unvote MadtheSwine** ---
**Author:** ![MindWanderer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@MindWanderer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MindWanderer)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-simpletown/442974/676 "2008-04-10T19:54:08Z")
I’m very short on time before the end of the Day (work went long), so I won’t be able to analyze Mennochio’s voting in time. Luckily someone has for me: > [@WF Tomba](#): > > The results of my analysis suggest that four players operated as a team on Day 1 to shift the voting away from fluiddruid and onto Menocchio: > > fluiddruid > peekercpa > Nanook of the North Shore > zuma (or if not him then MadTheSwine) I have had suspicions about fluiddruid all Day because of the two lynch argument. Which is flawed. As Blam said, One lynch and one modkill is not two lynches, and as I said, two lynches is not two kills. I think fluiddruid has been manipulative, and put suspicion on Menocchio that lead to his killing as WF says above. So: **Vote fluiddruid** I know it will have no effect today, but as many veteran players have said, its important to be on record. So I now am on record. I think the main arguments involving BOTH MTS and pedescribe are largely OMGUS so I won’t go there. ---
**Author:** ![MindWanderer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@MindWanderer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MindWanderer)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-simpletown/442974/677 "2008-04-10T19:56:02Z")
gah, I need to preview to see who else is posting already at times like these. Two posts came in while I was composing mine. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-simpletown/442974/678 "2008-04-10T19:56:21Z")
[QUOTE=MadTheSwine] Well,I can’t wait any longer, I think some of you have picked up on it,since I left plenty of crumbs,but I AM THE DETECTIVE. I investigated **ShadowFacts** last Night and got a town result. [/QUOTE] Well. Damn. If you’re telling the truth, then that really sucks for us. If you’re lying, then I’m likely to go down with you. Sad to say that I hope the latter is true. I guess it goes without saying that if there are protective roles in play… use 'em tonight. Fuck. ---
**Author:** ![Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook_of_the_North_Shore)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-simpletown/442974/679 "2008-04-10T19:58:28Z")
Well by my count, it’s currently 5 for Mad and 4 for Pedescribe. Since ties result in a random lynch, I’m not sure what the best decision here is. I think I believe Mad’s claim, so even though I don’t really believe necessarily that pedescribe is scum, I would rather lynch a vanilla than a detective. **Vote Pedescribe** ---
**Author:** ![MadTheSwine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MadTheSwine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MadTheSwine)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-simpletown/442974/680 "2008-04-10T19:59:27Z")
[QUOTE=Nanook of the North Shore] Why oh why would you wait until NOW to claim? It’s almost certainly too late to save yourself. Damn it. **Unvote MadtheSwine** [/QUOTE] Well I’m dead anyway,guess it don’t really matter. Just hoping pedescribe is scum so i don’t go out in complete failure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-simpletown/442974.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-simpletown/442974.md?page=35)