# Mafia--T2: Behind the Scenes **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 2, 2008, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699 "2008-09-02T17:07:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/241 "2008-09-06T19:19:27Z")
> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > He could still very well be not-lying scum. Yes, but if the information is true it’s just as useful whether it comes from a Townie or from Scum. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/242 "2008-09-06T19:32:50Z")
> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > This is funny. > > I posted a response to your question, Peeker, because I had an opinion and a perspective and I tend to share those when I play Mafia. It is kinda how the game is played, don’t you think? > > I find it interesting that you attempt to qualify my post as being “jumping in for sachertorte”, as if I had been eaves dropping on a private conversation instead of reading the game in public as we all are. \ But **cookies** that is how it came across to me. Am I not allowed to develop my own opinion and share it as well? (And to the phuquers who just hit the mute button - then Meh) Just because you say it is innocent does not a priori make it so. I only know one thing. I am town and there are a whole lot of suspects. If my “hair trigger” on a first out of the box vote is not supported by the rest of the Day’s activities then it will certainly change. Hell, if you think my opinion sucks then smite my butt. If you think it is _scummy_ then vote me. And, now, I am in total agreement with the whole pre v post set stuff discussions. Just a bunch of random noise in the cosmos. Now I have probably pissed off half the players in this here game. I’ll break it based on the current rule set (if I can) but I am not going to break it (if it could be broken) based on a Mod miscue. The **Mods** are owed as much. IMHO - FWIW - YMMV, et friggin’ cetera. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/243 "2008-09-06T19:42:24Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > Your inability to understand is your problem, not mine. The conversation and motivations for the conversation is plain and clear. Furthermore, the notion that “I don’t understand” equates to “You are scum” is making my blood pressure rise… AGAIN. And I believe this to be the first game that we have been in together. As such keep your Benicar handy. Depending on how it goes we could potentially have several more Socrates and general plebe conversations along the way. The uneducated demand answers - but will settle for malted beverages or fermented grapes. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/244 "2008-09-06T19:55:35Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > …the T-1000 is unknown amongst the other half. > > NAF, could you clarify this for us? \ **sach** This is what I don’t understand. Why are you asking **Naf** about the T-1000’s powers and abilities? Calls 911 and hopes that they arrive before **sach** ’s stroke. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/245 "2008-09-06T20:52:54Z")
**Peeker** , we do have to be a bit careful. Poor **Sachertorte** is stuck in a game with his arch-nemesis. Me. **Sach** hates my playstyle in particular because I strive to be unreadable whether I’m playing townie or scum, so there’s no glaring alterations to shout “_ **He’s scummy this time** _” from the rooftops. (At least, that’s my memory from one of the unspoiled threads in an offboard game). Whether he has enough data to see how I perform in a scum role is open to question, since as at the opening of this game I’ve started in a scum role in a traditional 2-side game exactly twice, neither of them here. Only the last Day or so of Serenity really counts, and I subbed in then with no remaining friends. I’m not sure how my “take time to think things over, then vote late” playstyle is going to work with the Borda count. Not very well, I suspect. I doubt whether you’ll get a vote from me much before Wednesday at the earliest. While I decline to fall back on random voting, it’s going to need a bit of time do decide which of you is going to swing. On top of that, my vote count spreadsheet is going to need revision. ---
**Author:** ![Almost\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@Almost\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Almost_Human)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/246 "2008-09-06T21:23:47Z")
I think it’s safe to assume that NAF was indeed the Jester in the preset game as none of his fellow scum have come back to deny their original roles. What’s getting to me though is why is Sachertorte assuming that NAF is going to tell the truth about anything else preset scum related? After all, as the Jester, he’d presumably have had a different role pm to the other scum so he could lie to his heart’s content if he wanted to. There’s no reason to expect him to be town this time around so what gives? Does Sachertorte know that NAF’s town this time around because he’s scum himself? Is Sachertorte scum and trying to make his fellow scum NAF look innocent this time around? Do I just not know you lot well enough to make these kind of assumptions? I know it isn’t much of a basis to for suspicion but we don’t have much to go on yet. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/247 "2008-09-06T21:24:41Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > But **cookies** that is how it came across to me. Am I not allowed to develop my own opinion and share it as well? Not really an apples to apples comparison considering I’m the only one of us with my name in blue when I had what…4 posts since the game was reset and we haven’t even heard from half of the game yet? ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/248 "2008-09-06T22:22:33Z")
> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > Not really an apples to apples comparison considering I’m the only one of us with my name in blue when I had what…4 posts since the game was reset and we haven’t even heard from half of the game yet? Finally, a cogent argument. For me, at least. **2. Unvote Cookies** **Mod question** **Does my unvote of my number two now move my number three to two too. Or do I just a have an empty space between the Gold and Bronze?** ---
**Author:** ![Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook_of_the_North_Shore)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/249 "2008-09-06T22:37:40Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > **Mod question** > > **Does my unvote of my number two now move my number three to two too. Or do I just a have an empty space between the Gold and Bronze?** As stated previously, incomplete votes do not count at all. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/250 "2008-09-07T00:18:54Z")
Vote count: Complete Votes N/A \*\*Incomplete Votes Peeker: 1.Sach, 3. Rysto NOTE: INCOMPLETE VOTES DO NOT COUNT TOWARDS DUSK TALLIES Extra Effects Sarah Connor is currently intimidtating anyone voting for CatInASuit. Totals: Sach: (3) (Peeker 1st) Rysto: (1) (Peeker 3rd) CatInASuit: (-3) (Sarah Connor Special Effect) …So basically what Nanook said. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/251 "2008-09-07T01:04:27Z")
You people have no patience. Like a fine wine, this Day is best savored slowly and deliberately. We have information swimming about and trying to get a handle on what information exists and what it then means is going to take some time. > [@peekercpa](#): > > \ > > **sach** This is what I don’t understand. Why are you asking **Naf** about the T-1000’s powers and abilities? > > Calls 911 and hopes that they arrive before **sach** ’s stroke. Because NAF claimed pre-reset scum jester. I wanted to know whether or not the scum group knows who the T-1000 is. NAF has that information. I asked him to share it with us. > [@Almost\_Human](#): > > What’s getting to me though is why is Sachertorte assuming that NAF is going to tell the truth about anything else preset scum related? Who the hell said I was assuming anything? > [@](#): > > After all, as the Jester, he’d presumably have had a different role pm to the other scum so he could lie to his heart’s content if he wanted to. There’s no reason to expect him to be town this time around so what gives? So because someone might lie, you don’t want to ask questions? I want to put scum in a position where they have to lie to us and put their lie on record. Then I want to catch them in the lie. Gah! > [@](#): > > Does Sachertorte know that NAF’s town this time around because he’s scum himself? Where did this come from? > [@](#): > > Is Sachertorte scum and trying to make his fellow scum NAF look innocent this time around? Ha. That’s funny. Do you really think anyone here is stupid enough to accept NAF as Town, simply because … wait a second. I haven’t done anything to imply NAF was Town. Peaches Christ. You don’t know what’s swimming around in my head or what my opinion of NAF is. All I’ve done is ask him questions about his pre-reset role. How exactly does that ‘make him look innocent?’ > [@](#): > > Do I just not know you lot well enough to make these kind of assumptions? Bingo. > [@](#): > > I know it isn’t much of a basis to for suspicion but we don’t have much to go on yet. I’m fine with your being suspicious of me. But I’d really like a higher bar than “He could be doing that because he’s scum!” without actually outlining how my behavior is demonstrably something Town would not do. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/252 "2008-09-07T01:11:13Z")
> [@MHaye](#): > > **Peeker** I’m not sure how my “take time to think things over, then vote late” playstyle is going to work with the Borda count. Not very well, I suspect. I doubt whether you’ll get a vote from me much before Wednesday at the earliest. \ My concern as well. It’s going to be a hell dog keeping up with votes. Late ones are going to create all sorts of issues especially if we get a role claim. And I am not so presumptious to suggest that my suggestion about getting a vote out early should be universally accepted. Just the way I am going to play ti. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/253 "2008-09-07T01:17:30Z")
Hey everyone - Just checking in very briefly. I haven’t read a damn thing except for the whole role PM fiasco, and I am confirming my second role PM. What I really needed to post is that my frikkin’ ferry home from Nova Scotia tomorrow was cancelled due to Hanna, so I won’t be able to play until Tuesday, not Monday as I originally thought. Stupid weather. I do have limited internet access now, so I will try to read as much as I can, but I don’t expect to post anything until Tuesday. Back as soon as I can… ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/254 "2008-09-07T01:34:24Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > You people have no patience. Like a fine wine, this Day is best savored slowly and deliberately. We have information swimming about and trying to get a handle on what information exists and what it then means is going to take some time. > > Because NAF claimed pre-reset scum jester. I wanted to know whether or not the scum group knows who the T-1000 is. NAF has that information. I asked him to share it with us. > Who the hell said I was assuming anything? > So because someone might lie, you don’t want to ask questions? I want to put scum in a position where they have to lie to us and put their lie on record. Then I want to catch them in the lie. > Gah! > Where did this come from? > Ha. That’s funny. Do you really think anyone here is stupid enough to accept NAF as Town, simply because … wait a second. I haven’t done anything to imply NAF was Town. Peaches Christ. You don’t know what’s swimming around in my head or what my opinion of NAF is. All I’ve done is ask him questions about his pre-reset role. How exactly does that ‘make him look innocent?’ > > Bingo. > I’m fine with your being suspicious of me. But I’d really like a higher bar than “He could be doing that because he’s scum!” without actually outlining how my behavior is demonstrably something Town would not do. A might prickly me thinks. In watching these games **sach** comes off as take that shit o way. Whether he is town or scum any questioning is back directed to the questioner. Shit … I won’t even go down the Mason disaster. You made a positively questionable comment. Your shit is getting called. **AH** is dead on with what I was thinking. Pontificate all you want it don’t take away your - whatever. And **Almost Human** welcome aboard. Stuff like you and me are doing is typically poorly received. All the more reason to keep it and step it up. Let’s get the greybeards away from their geritol. [Santo]Kyyyaaaahhh[/santo] ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/255 "2008-09-07T02:05:30Z")
I’m curious, Peeker. What exactly is the difference, by your estimation, between the thesis behind what AH said and the thesis behind what I’ve been saying? ---
**Author:** ![Flyfisheron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Flyfisheron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyfisheron)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/256 "2008-09-07T02:48:23Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > Because NAF claimed pre-reset scum jester. I wanted to know whether or not the scum group knows who the T-1000 is. NAF has that information. I asked him to share it with us Where did **NAF** make the pre-reset Scum Jester claim? I can’t find it. There certainly wasn’t anything in my first role PM that made any hint of any of us being a Jester. ---
**Author:** ![Precambrianmollusc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/precambrianmollusc/32/63_2.png) [@Precambrianmollusc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Precambrianmollusc)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/257 "2008-09-07T02:50:31Z")
> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > I see absolutely no reason for myself or anyone else to trust what is being said in the pre-reset conversations at this time, and I consider that to be a pro-town perspective that is worth repeating a few times, so their’s a third for you. The best I’m hoping for by saying this is to instill some cynical vigilance where perhaps there was a lack thereof. Y’all can talk about whatever you want. I am not stopping any of you nor voting for any of you. I cannot see any reason to distrust what some one might say about their role prior to the reset, no one has any real reason to lie about what they were in the past. If a current scum is lying about their prior role they do run the risk of screwing up, so I would geuss they would not. At the same time, I agree with you and cannot see any reason to pay the slightest bit of attention to what someone said their role was prior to the reset. So far with all this chatter about the prior roles we have not really discovered anything significant that was not in the role descriptions back in post 4. Sache said he is trying to flush out the quirks and catch people in a lie. Could that not equally work in scum favour, if a town is lying to cover up a known town quirk, once they have been shown to be lying they will find themsleves in a vat of molten metal rather sharpish So I see not much upside for sachs charge on the prior role windmills, and a non zero downside, which does make me wonder why he is pushing it. In other random thoughts, Peeky, if you are our vig and as eager with your vig powers as you are with your votes, I´ll spend the night buying you margaritas or whatever Boozahol PI can rustle up in an attempt to disuade you from nightly drastic actions (barring juicy scum slip ups of course) ---
**Author:** ![Precambrianmollusc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/precambrianmollusc/32/63_2.png) [@Precambrianmollusc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Precambrianmollusc)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/258 "2008-09-07T02:54:14Z")
> [@Flyfisheron](#): > > Where did **NAF** make the pre-reset Scum Jester claim? I can’t find it. There certainly wasn’t anything in my first role PM that made any hint of any of us being a Jester. Post 122 [QUOTE=NAF] I was the scum Jester before the reset and that role was just as described on the role description. The color was kinda cool, but that’s about it. On a side note…I have always wanted to play a Jester type, I think I would be REALLY good at it. I am a little sad that I didn’t get to keep that role. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/259 "2008-09-07T02:54:49Z")
> [@Flyfisheron](#): > > Where did **NAF** make the pre-reset Scum Jester claim? I can’t find it. There certainly wasn’t anything in my first role PM that made any hint of any of us being a Jester. Here ya go. Post 122. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10157054&postcount=122](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10157054&postcount=122) Sach, did all your questions for me get answered? I think some other people covered a few of them. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/260 "2008-09-07T03:06:58Z")
> [@NaturalBlondChap](#): > > I cannot see any reason to distrust what some one might say about their role prior to the reset, no one has any real reason to lie about what they were in the past. And… > [@](#): > > Sache said he is trying to flush out the quirks and catch people in a lie. Could that not equally work in scum favour, if a town is lying to cover up a known town quirk, once they have been shown to be lying they will find themsleves in a vat of molten metal rather sharpish > So I see not much upside for sachs charge on the prior role windmills, and a non zero downside, which does make me wonder why he is pushing it. And… > [@](#): > > At the same time, I agree with you and cannot see any reason to pay the slightest bit of attention to what someone said their role was prior to the reset. So… you can’t see a reason someone would lie about what they were in the past (Quote 1). But you can’t see a reason we should pay attention to what people said they were in the past (presumably because they could be lying) - Quote 3 No one has any reason to lie about what they were in the past (Quote 1) but Town might lie to cover up Town quirks (Quote 2)? I think you’re saying whatever you can to push suspicion on **sachertorte** , whether it makes sense or holds together or what. I think you’re scum. 1. vote NBC 2. vote storyteller 3. vote Cookies (Latter two votes placeholder votes, to be changed as genuine targets manifest - nothing personal, Cookies, but I want a vote for NBC on the record and the only way to do that is to have multiple targets). Also from **NBC** : > [@](#): > > Sache said he is trying to flush out the quirks and catch people in a lie. Could that not equally work in scum favour, if a town is lying to cover up a known town quirk, once they have been shown to be lying they will find themsleves in a vat of molten metal rather sharpish Town should not be lying for any reason. **sach** has asked questions specifically of those who have been claimed (by NAF) to have been scum in the previous assignment. If any of them claims not to have been, then we have an interesting conflict right there. If all of them say they are scum, but none of them claim to know anything about the scum roles that aren’t in the PMs, then we know one of two things: (1) There ARE no scum quirks; or (2) One of the players from the past game is lying, and is scum. For that reason alone, this is a worthwhile discussion, and I call upon direct answers from all of those who NAF has claimed were pre-reset scum: (1) _Were_ you scum? (2) Which scum role? (3) Did you have a quirk, and if so, what was it? No pro-Town reason on Earth not to answer this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699.md?page=14)