# Mafia--T2: Behind the Scenes **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 2, 2008, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699 "2008-09-02T17:07:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/401 "2008-09-10T01:40:26Z")
Hey all - I’m back from vacation and I’ve just completed a complete read (finally). I’m going to post a few comments on things I’ve seen, some of it from a while ago, some of it more recently. In an effort to stay organized, I’ll post them one at a time. Also, I still feel like I’m not really caught up, but I’ve got to start going with something, and smaller chunks will be easier for me. There has already been some discussion of this quote: > [@Almost\_Human](#): > > I think it’s safe to assume that NAF was indeed the Jester in the preset game as none of his fellow scum have come back to deny their original roles. > > What’s getting to me though is why is Sachertorte assuming that NAF is going to tell the truth about anything else preset scum related? After all, as the Jester, he’d presumably have had a different role pm to the other scum so he could lie to his heart’s content if he wanted to. **There’s no reason to expect him to be town this time around so what gives?** (bolding mine) I wanted to mention that this really stuck out to me on my read-through. There is a powerful meme from past SDMB games about Perfect Information Syndrome, which can be used to try to find Scum (by showing someone displaying knowledge they shouldn’t have as Town), but it has more often (IMO) been used as a tactic to throw suspicion on players. The above quote is a classic example of that. Paraphrase: “ **sachertorte** seems to have some information he shouldn’t have. How is that possible?? _wink wink_ What explanation for that could there be? _nudge nudge_” It’s also ironic to me that **sach** is a target of this again, after it was used so effectively against him in Simpletown. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/402 "2008-09-10T01:45:55Z")
> [@NaturalBlondChap](#): > > So what I do and do not say is irrelevent. For you to think some one is scum all they need to do is raise an eyebrow (not even a vote ) in **sachertorte** direction. > Why do you have such a faith that **sachertorte** is not sucm and any slight questioning of his line of reasoning is scummy. I assume you have as much knowledge as the rest of us as to the scumminess or not of him or would that be a bad assumption. Here is another example of precisely what I was talking about in my previous post. Don’t like it, don’t like it at all. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/403 "2008-09-10T01:54:43Z")
> [@Santo\_Rugger](#): > > If we don’t do it Today or Tomorrow, you’ve admitted the role **will** become anti-town. > \ > A claimable and confirmable role that\*\* -will- \*\*end up hurting town if they’re around after Tomorrow.Huh? > > Strongly disagree. I dont’ think there is a way to play said role that will end up pro-town. > > At -this- moment, yes. But after Tomorrow it **won’t be**! (bolding mine) I’m not interested in getting in the middle of your fine tete-a-tete with **CAIS** , but your vehemence on this point caught my attention. I just wanted it noted that, if I understand the rules correctly, Sarah Conner’s power-destroying insanity can effect scum as well as Town, _and_ might target Vanilla town (thus having no effect) _and_ might target someone who has already been stripped of power (thus having no effect). So while I agree that, in all odds, if she survives she’s likely to eventually strip some Town power roles of their power, particularly as the Days go on, it’s not nearly as certain or definite as you say, and if we get lucky she could hurt scum, too. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/404 "2008-09-10T01:59:37Z")
> [@Santo\_Rugger](#): > > Sure: > > Pretty obvious: > 13. Paranoid Doc (blocks and protects) > 12. Doc (typical doc) > > Vig can take out Assassin, John can give us good info: > 15. The T-800–Vig, except without suicide. > 16. John Conner–Every night, he asks someone a question. They answer. And everyone hears it via tape recorder the next day. > > Only powerful when used skillfully: > 8. Politican (can buy someone else’s vote, would direct his vote by PM filtered through us) > 9. Bus Driver (switches two people at night and who targets them) > Self confirmable, plus can kind of protect. > Roleblocker can hurt town, too, though, while commuter is valuable mostly to themselves. > 11. Commuter (can hide (be untargetable) at night, can’t use power two nights in a row) > 10. Roleblocker (typical roleblocker) > This group is pretty worthless, although the first two are self confirmable: > 14. Suicidal Vig > 7. Sarah Conner > 11-7: Vanilla Responds while waiting for my driver. Well I am in the bottom quartile - or was it the top quartile? Chasing storms sounds exotic until you realize that my IM director and I will be chsing this storm through our markets for the next week, it looks like. Son of a gun - Kingsville to Alexandria. Garden spots, each and every one. I’m out for a while. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/405 "2008-09-10T03:02:52Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Proposing bad ideas is one thing, getting all defensive and clinging to them after their flaws have been pointed out is a much more suspicious thing. I still don’t think it’s a bad idea. Not as good as I originally thought, but I still give it a 6.5 on a scale of 1 to 10, with 5 being an idea with no advantages or disadvantages. I fail to see how being egotistical is scummy, though. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/406 "2008-09-10T03:50:27Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > So while I agree that, in all odds, if she survives she’s likely to eventually strip some Town power roles of their power, particularly as the Days go on, it’s not nearly as certain or definite as you say, and if we get lucky she could hurt scum, too. _If_ we get lucky. But remember, there are more Town roles than Scum roles. Also, if a Vanilla Scum loses its powers, it doesn’t really lose value to the scum team, since the scum team would be able to use that person to lay down a gambit. Just about everybody who’s replied to my theory/proposal has said they think the role is effectively neutral and/or a net negative (i.e. “in all odd she’ll strip some Town power roles…”), yet think lynching her is a bad idea. Keep in mind that if she suicides, we’ll be lynching a (let’s agree) neutral person, preventing the lynch of a positive person, and we’ll still get all the info we normally get if she claims around 11:00 PM Tomorrow (i.e. the eleventh hour, where we still have time to switch our votes to her). I know how rough it is to agree to an artificial deadline, but still\*. \*[oog]Has anybody ever run the numbers to see if those who wouldn’t follow the artificial deadline were more likely scum or if it was a null tell? For example DrainBead in the offboard game, it was so _obvious_to me that she was scum.[/oog] ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/407 "2008-09-10T03:52:39Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > Well I am in the bottom quartile - or was it the top quartile? Neither, quartile denotes quarters, while my data was in fifths. 😉 Regardless, you shouldn’t be helping scum (if you’re town, of course) narrow down what your role is. Unless you’re claiming Sarah Connor? ---
**Author:** ![Total\_Lost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e56c9b/32.png) [@Total\_Lost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Total_Lost)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/408 "2008-09-10T07:35:28Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > The original (intended, apparently he didn’t get it) recipient was indeed Rysto. To me this means that we really can’t keep suspecting Rysto of being assigned the same scum role to cover up any quirks. I’ll wait to see, if those who voted for Rysto with this as a reason is goint to change their votes… ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/409 "2008-09-10T08:08:07Z")
**vote 1. Santo Rugger** not seeing why we need to kill Sarah. She is a town role and can suicide herself without us wasting the lynch. will complete the vote at a later time ---
**Author:** ![Total\_Lost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e56c9b/32.png) [@Total\_Lost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Total_Lost)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/410 "2008-09-10T10:19:34Z")
> [@Santo\_Rugger](#): > > I’m starting to think SC is worth about .5 points, whereas a Vanilla would be 1. It’s a Town role, but not usefull at best and helpful at worst. Maybe I’m just getting this all wrong! But why is “helpful” worse? Isn’t is good? Could you enlighten me, please? ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/411 "2008-09-10T13:49:13Z")
I find the **Santo Rugger** situation fascinating. While watching Conspiracy 2, I became convinced that CIAS was Town during the first day. His behavior on Day One promoting a course of action that everyone else disagreed with (and general vocal nature) was a big indicator of his townness to me. In the forbidden thread I got a lot of questions about “wouldn’t scum do that to act town?” My reply was that we keep tossing around the idea that scum will ‘act town’ but until we see a real scum ‘play town’ by espousing an unpopular idea to gain town credibility, I won’t believe it. Furthermore, scum won’t ‘play town’ this way until town successfully identifies a townie by this trait. My point was that in C2 CIAS would have only managed to fool me as I looked at his behavior and thought “Town.” But everyone else looked at CIAS and saw “scum” which led to his role-claim. In other words scum have no reason to act this way because the status quo is to look at such behavior and think “scum” So here we have Santo Rugger bringing up an unpopular idea and getting heat for it. Looks like the same old formula to me. Now could Santo Rugger be trying to ‘act town’ in this manner? I guess anything is possible, but I find it unlikely. All he will have managed to do is fool me and convince the rest of you to lynch him. Doesn’t seem like a good idea for scum to play that game. > [@NAF1138](#): > > \ > Real reasons, not just saying that what Rugger posted was anti town. Maybe it was maybe it wasn’t, but I don’t see a pro scum motivation for trying to take out Sarah quickly. Her powers help the scum much more than they hurt them. I do on the other hand see pro scum motivation for trying to get Rugger lynched. I find NAF’s statement peculiar. It’s a small thing, but I wonder why he flat out states that trying to get Rugger lynched is only pro-scum motivated. Trying to get Rugger lynched would only be pro-scum if Rugger is Town, which we don’t know. I’ve already said that I think Rugger is Town, but I don’t expect everyone else to think that way or act as though that is true. **CatInASuit** , do you remember whether is was mostly scum or Town who was on your case in C2? I don’t remember, and I don’t want to look it up. The final point I want to bring up is our Moderator, pedescribe. We’ve had an unusually high amount of interaction with our moderator, I’m a big fan of analyzing the Moderator because not only does he have perfect information, but we know he has perfect information. Pedescribe has done several things that indicate to me he does not want Rysto lynched. First he backed Rysto after Rysto claimed “no PM.” Second, he explicitly stated he randomized the roles for the reset. Third, he posted the T-1000 role PM and essentially told us the T-1000 has no quirks. For each of these points, pedescribe could have quite justifiably stayed silent\*, yet he did not. My impression is pedescribe doesn’t want us to lynch Rysto. My big question is why. \*Point 2 pretty much had to be answered the way it was, even if the roles were assigned “mostly random”. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/412 "2008-09-10T14:24:56Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > My impression is pedescribe doesn’t want us to lynch Rysto. My big question is why. He might be feeling a little guilty that he hung me out to dry by stating outright that I received the PM when he couldn’t be entirely sure that the PM had gotten through. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/413 "2008-09-10T14:49:13Z")
After having slept on it, I now agree with **story’s** implied argument from yesterday; if being wrong is not in and of itself a scumtell, then being _obstinately_ wrong can’t be, either. I think it really is just a difference in temprament and personal style. Without wanting to bring GD into the Game Room, we certainly see this same thing in politics; some people like leaders who are “tough” and “stick to their principles”, while others prefer those who are willing to change their positions if what they’re doing isn’t working and/or a compelling argument can be made for an alternative position. But both sides really have the best interests of the country at heart (something I often find very hard to remember IRL in the heat of an election season!:p). I remember in my last game (I was Town) I said some things early on that were not well thought through, and got called on them. I thought I was being a good little Townie by admitting my errors and retracting my statements, but the people criticizing me (who were also Town) reacted with “OMG! Look at him _backpedaling_!! He must be scum!!” Goes to show you don’t ever know… So, hoping that won’t happen again, I retract the last sentence of my case against Rugger _(" Proposing bad ideas is one thing, getting all defensive and clinging to them after their flaws have been pointed out is a much more suspicious thing")_. However, I will leave the vote in place for now based on the last sentence of my last post _(“using a 3rd vote on a player who is making illogical arguments to promote anti-Town proposals, even if he is not more likely than anyone else to actually be scum-aligned, is not bad for Day One.”)_ ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/414 "2008-09-10T15:03:27Z")
NETA: Hi, **Wanderers**! I’ll get my vote off you by lunchtime. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/415 "2008-09-10T15:28:09Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > I find NAF’s statement peculiar. It’s a small thing, but I wonder why he flat out states that trying to get Rugger lynched is only pro-scum motivated. Trying to get Rugger lynched would only be pro-scum if Rugger is Town, which we don’t know. I’ve already said that I think Rugger is Town, but I don’t expect everyone else to think that way or act as though that is true. I would have thought that my next statment would have explained why I don’t think any scum in their right mind would want Sarah Connor lynched. I didn’t say Ruggers lynch was sum motivated, just that I could see scum motivation for it. I can not see why scum would push for a Sarah Connor lynch as it will effectivly hurt them as much as it would help them. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/416 "2008-09-10T15:30:13Z")
Also, the more I think about it the more that snip out of context bothers me. I am clearly asking for people to provide reasons for their vote in that post. I am in no way saying that only scum would vote for Rugger (as you seem to imply). Really troubling sach. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/417 "2008-09-10T15:54:37Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Real reasons, not just saying that what Rugger posted was anti town. Maybe it was maybe it wasn’t, but I don’t see a pro scum motivation for trying to take out Sarah quickly. Her powers help the scum much more than they hurt them. I do on the other hand see pro scum motivation for trying to get Rugger lynched. > > Full disclosure, I took a look at the balance of the game before pede set it up. I didn’t see anything more than what is in the current rules, but I gave pede my ok on the balance for this version of sarah connor (this is I think his third pass at the role) because my feeling was her powers ultimately negated her being town and she was a zero sum gain, a neutral party in terms of balance. How am I taking out out of context? I’ve included your next statement in the quote above. I don’t see how your having looked at the setup _a priori_ has anything to do with Santo Rugger. My point isn’t about Sarah Connor, it’s about Santo Rugger and why you think scum are motivated to try and get Santo Rugger lynched. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/418 "2008-09-10T16:17:51Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > He might be feeling a little guilty that he hung me out to dry by stating outright that I received the PM when he couldn’t be entirely sure that the PM had gotten through. He also might hate the meta-gaminess of trying (successfully or not) to manipulate a mistake brought on by the board update into game information. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/419 "2008-09-10T16:20:47Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > How am I taking out out of context? I’ve included your next statement in the quote above. I don’t see how your having looked at the setup _a priori_ has anything to do with Santo Rugger. My point isn’t about Sarah Connor, it’s about Santo Rugger and why you think scum are motivated to try and get Santo Rugger lynched. My apologies, I missed your point. I don’t think that scum are motivated to get Rugger lynched any more than they would be motivated to get any random townie lynched on Day 1. And yes, I think Rugger is a townie of some flavor because, once again, trying to get Sarah Connor lynched is a bad move for the scum. I can not come up with a single reason why they would a) stick their neck out and call for a town role to be lynched b) call for that particular role to be lynched. It doesn’t make sense to me. Sorry if that wasn’t clear. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699/420 "2008-09-10T16:21:48Z")
And for another double post, thanks for clarifying sach. Also, happy birthday to Story. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-t2-behind-the-scenes/461699.md?page=22)