# MAFIA: The Game - Ideal for Beginners \[Game in Progress\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Thread Games\ **Created:** [July 14, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099 "2015-07-14T00:45:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Cygnus42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Cygnus42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cygnus42)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/401 "2015-07-23T15:05:14Z")
So…first off, sorry I didn’t get on to post yesterday. I was following along a bit on my phone, but didn’t have time to get on and reply at any point. Honestly, I was hoping that this Tie-voting plan would burn itself out yesterday…but it seems to be back in force today instead. It doesn’t seem like a very ‘Mafia’-way to play really. It seems like it’s more of an exploit / ‘clever use of game mechanics’ to me. I suspect that when \*\*storyteller \*\*came up with this tie mechanic, he probably just figured it would give us something to talk about on the first day, and not lead to a mass-tie / everyone vote for themselves deal. Since the majority seems to be going along with it now, I’ll go along too - obviously it’d be considered anti-town to resist at this point. Prior to all this, I was becoming more suspicious of Dante G - I was initially ready to write off his initial slip as just being excited for a new game. But, his followup posts seemed to just add to the confusion around him. Maybe I’ll come back to that after we’re all done voting for ourselves… vote Cygnus42 ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/402 "2015-07-23T15:11:02Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > In other words, I don’t think opposing the plan is in itself scummy, but I do think calling the plan itself scummy is super scummy, and so I tend to think that those who have gone hard after the people proposing the plan ( **Chronos** in particular, volume-wise) are suspect. That would be **JSexton** , **septimus** and **Dante G** , plus **Thing Fish** voted for him early on but now is kind of involved in the strategic discussion with \*\*Chronos \*\*despite still having a vote on him, which is interesting. To be clear, I never attacked Chronos for his initial discussion of the tiebreaker mechanic, nor for refining the mass tie plan. My vote was based on his response to me and his vote on Dante G. ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/403 "2015-07-23T15:12:34Z")
Unvote Biotop Stop. Think. Play this out and look at the likely scenarios. I will post my thoughts at lunch. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/404 "2015-07-23T15:20:28Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > @ **JSexton** and others who’ve objected to the Plan: If a large majority of players agree to the Plan just for Day 1, will you cooperate? At a minimum, if we get 17 players cooperating and First Mason declares himself, will you cooperate so First Mason’s sacrifice will not be in vain? No. At that point I’ll ask storyteller to replace me, as it’s no longer the game I signed up for. I’ll let someone who wants to play this new game, whatever it is, play. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/405 "2015-07-23T15:26:29Z")
> [@Cygnus42](#): > > Since the majority seems to be going along with it now, I’ll go along too - obviously it’d be considered anti-town to resist at this point. This is an odd thing to verbalize. If you’re against it, be against it. It’s bee made clear by several players that they don’t like the plan and don’t intend to go along with. At least 5 of them, by my recollection, and unless you think that literally all 5 wolves just decided to stand together, there is almost certainly town in the group (from an outside perspective, not mine, of course). So why not stand with them? After all, what Biotop is doing right now is asking people to vote on the plan via self voting, and he made it clear that he’s looking for more than a simple majority, he’s looking for near consensus. If you’re against it, you ought to feel free to vote against it. And yet you didn’t, and your explicit reason is to not appear anti-town, despite that not really being the case. Talk to me, Goose. Tell me why I shouldn’t vote for you. ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/406 "2015-07-23T15:36:38Z")
I think this plan will lead to a loss of two for one (against town). Explanation 1. After some votes, First Mason declares him/herself 2. At the end of the Day Alpha Wolf votes for First Mason. Boom: First Mason lynch 3. Night time. Someone dies (probably) We lose First Mason + someone else for the Alpha Wolf. Is this really a good exchange? **Unvote Dante G** **Vote DiggitCamara** ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/407 "2015-07-23T15:49:50Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > No. At that point I’ll ask storyteller to replace me, as it’s no longer the game I signed up for. I’ll let someone who wants to play this new game, whatever it is, play. Looks like chess to me. ---
**Author:** ![Cygnus42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Cygnus42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cygnus42)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/408 "2015-07-23T15:56:26Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > This is an odd thing to verbalize. If you’re against it, be against it. It’s bee made clear by several players that they don’t like the plan and don’t intend to go along with. At least 5 of them, by my recollection, and unless you think that literally all 5 wolves just decided to stand together, there is almost certainly town in the group (from an outside perspective, not mine, of course). > . I didn’t count up the number of people who are opposed and didn’t go along, honestly. I saw a series of posts questioning the plan, but going along with it anyway. I think that the way things are trending, there will be heavy scum-suspicion on the people who abstain for any reason. My objection is the same as several others…it doesn’t really seem like ‘Mafia’ to me. This is my first time playing, but I have followed along with a couple games on this board before. So, I was expecting something different, I suppose. Now, it’s entirely possible we go through this first game Day with a wacky tie scenario, and then back to something more ‘normal’ afterward, which is fine with me. And now, I see \*\*biotop \*\*has unvoted himself - maybe reconsidering the plan? ---
**Author:** ![Plumpudding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Plumpudding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plumpudding)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/409 "2015-07-23T16:05:52Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > No. At that point I’ll ask storyteller to replace me, as it’s no longer the game I signed up for. I’ll let someone who wants to play this new game, whatever it is, play. You don’t think you’re giving up on it a bit too early? Seems to me like we’re in a game of dare in a game of mafia. Day One isn’t over yet. With everything that has happened thus far I wouldn’t be surprised to see a full turn-around. ---
**Author:** ![Sario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sario/32/18580_2.png) [@Sario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sario)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/410 "2015-07-23T16:23:24Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Man, I hate unwritten rules. **Story** has made clear that there will not be a written rule against the **Biotop** - **Thing Fish** plan, but many posters have made it clear that they think it’d make the game un-fun (and I can’t exactly blame them for that), so there seems to be an unwritten rule against it. But where are the boundaries? Is it OK to use the plan just once, and then switch to more conventional play? Is it OK to use a weaker version of the plan, and if so, how much weaker? I mean, suppose that we never got on this topic at all, but in the early game, we just happened to have a tie anyway, and it later got to the point where we were hunting the Alpha. I don’t think it’d be out of line at that point to use the information we had… but there’s no qualitative difference between that and the full-on plan (though a heck of a lot of quantitative difference). > > Ah, well, I’ll give it a shot, and I guess we’ll just stop when we go too far, whenever that is. > **Unvote TexCat > Vote Chronos** > > Please note that I’m still extremely suspicious of **TexCat** , and will go back to voting her if this plan doesn’t go through. This is not the game I signed up for **Vote Chronos** ---
**Author:** ![Precambrianmollusc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/precambrianmollusc/32/63_2.png) [@Precambrianmollusc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Precambrianmollusc)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/411 "2015-07-23T16:29:58Z")
Bayard – no idea Biotop - leaning town re the whole tie break analysis Chronos – leaning town for the tie break analysis, then again he has been on it from day one, for him to be scum we would have to assume he saw from the outset the tie break mechanism was beneficial to scum hence pushed it. Obviously he is an experienced and smart player, my feeling would be if he were a wolf he would not have pushed so hard early without knowing or thorough all the permutations . Cygnus42 Dante G - the whole tipping hand thing, seams scummy. DiggitCamara Jimmy Chitwood Johnny Bravo Jsexton think their objection to the coordinated lynch comes more form a ‘play the game; perspective rather than a would trying to stop the coordination Mahaloth– not sure Nonsuch Plumpudding -Seams to be a bit all over the place , throwing a lot of accusations out there, their reasoning may be bad, but I think it’s a genuine attempt to hunt for scum Precambrianmollusc 13 the towniest town person you could ever hope to meet. Prof. Pepperwinkle maintaining low profile sangfroid kind of smudging those ( I think he was aiming at Chronos and Texcat) by calling the disagreements a wolf fight Sario septimus I agree with post 360 – scum can screw with us and get mis lynch and things rapidly go sideways, sure we get a would, but we lose the masons pretty quickly, then again like texcat, I can see it as a scum move , depends on motivation, which we cant know Texcat had I have pretty much agreed from night zero that the coordinated lync is problematic to town. I could see a wolf not liking the scheme, I know I don’t but then , I know I am town, I don’t know what tex cat is. Slight scum lean for now Thing - lots of discussion I think I will vote vote sangfroid ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/412 "2015-07-23T16:34:08Z")
I’m really disappointed that we have to do this in a newcomer game. The idea of the game was to let newcomers experience the game in a very simple, basic setup. Then, for a reason I do not get, we have to have a new tie-break mechanism instead of just a standard one. I feel like a lot of newcomers will get the wrong impression of the game. I still think the rule for tie-breakers should just change/revert to the normal system. If not, we should host(I could mod) another newbie game right after this one. I’m surprised we went this route in a newbie game. I guess I can go along if we want, but now I’m not changing anything. ---
**Author:** ![Cygnus42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Cygnus42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cygnus42)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/413 "2015-07-23T16:52:30Z")
Like I said above, I think this tie scheme is an unintended / unforeseen side effect of what was supposed to be a simple discussion topic by the mod. Still 4 days until the end of day…things make change completely by then anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Dante\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@Dante\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dante_G)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/414 "2015-07-23T16:54:28Z")
I agree, Mahaloth. If I get to moderate the next game, like I have mentioned before, I want to stick to a basic mafia type game. I think it would help not overwhelm some of the newer players. We’ll see how it goes. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/415 "2015-07-23T16:59:42Z")
I saw that there was a lot of sentiment for the vote-yourself plan to expose Alpha Wolf, and it seemed appropriate that proponents get a chance to pursue the plan, despite that it requires _great_ cooperation. I tried a self-vote and indeed there was a large response. I agree with Chronos that rules are rules and following the rules is a matter of degree. Information about tie-breaking rules is used all the time in Mafia; we’re merely going to a more extreme. Frankly I find comments about subbing out because this “isn’t Mafia” to be unsportsmanlike. Despite the big flurry of self-votes I don’t think we’re going to get anywhere close to the threshold needed to proceed; this will probably end as a detour to stimulate discussion and get reactions. If we don’t get a large majority in favor within 24 hours, I suggest we back out, unvote ourselves, and revote the Scumliest. **Masons: Please just self-vote or not according to whether you like the plan. There is no need for the First Mason to reveal (with an unvote) until we are _very_ close to unanimity.** ---
**Author:** ![Sario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sario/32/18580_2.png) [@Sario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sario)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/416 "2015-07-23T17:01:27Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > I’m really disappointed that we have to do this in a newcomer game. The idea of the game was to let newcomers experience the game in a very simple, basic setup. Then, for a reason I do not get, we have to have a new tie-break mechanism instead of just a standard one. > > I feel like a lot of newcomers will get the wrong impression of the game. > > I still think the rule for tie-breakers should just change/revert to the normal system. If not, we should host(I could mod) another newbie game right after this one. > > I’m surprised we went this route in a newbie game. I guess I can go along if we want, but now I’m not changing anything. I can only guess here but I think **Story** put the tie break in as a way to give the newbies a little extra info. I doubt he was expecting players to abuse it to the point of breaking the game. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/417 "2015-07-23T17:11:36Z")
**Mahaloth** articulates a lot of what I am thinking. This is feeling less like playing a game and more like finding myself trapped, Tron-like, in a theoretical model run amok, and I feel disappointed and a little bewildered. Obviously, a lot of you enjoy this style of play, but I don’t. I like the idea of playing a “clean” newbie game after this, assuming this one continues its plunge down the moneyball rabbit hole. So my options are: 1. Go along with the plan 2. Ignore the plan, and vote my own way 3. Ask to be replaced I am ruling out #3 and leaning #2 right now. I’m not ruling out #1 — I want our side to win, even if the path to victory doesn’t sound all that fun. But I’m giving myself time to think it over. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/418 "2015-07-23T17:43:22Z")
> [@Cygnus42](#): > > Like I said above, I think this tie scheme is an unintended / unforeseen side effect of what was supposed to be a simple discussion topic by the mod. Still 4 days until the end of day…things make change completely by then anyway. I think he just wanted a new way to break a tie, not a discussion topic. > [@Sario](#): > > I can only guess here but I think **Story** put the tie break in as a way to give the newbies a little extra info. I doubt he was expecting players to abuse it to the point of breaking the game. Still, I think it was just an idea that he is surprised is causing so much discussion. I thought the game would be standard in every way in order to help newcomers out. ---
**Author:** ![sangfroid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@sangfroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sangfroid)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/419 "2015-07-23T18:20:22Z")
I’m willing to self-vote, though I agree that the method is a bit unorthodox. It is what we have to work with however, and our host has quite explicitly restated that the rules will stand as written. No issue by me. I do prefer to observe a bit more before voting though, as we still have ample time left. The search for the real truth takes more than just one Day, and over-eager lynching most often takes out a fellow Townie and sometimes a power role in the first round. Not good, but the information gathered certainly can be. That said, the two others who’ve dropped my name, **Dante G** and **Precambrianmollusc** have done so under the guises of “just because”, and that I suspect a diversionary wolf fight (which I do), respectively. I’ve yet to actually name any names myself. Somebody here could use the spotlight treatment, but it isn’t me. ---
**Author:** ![Precambrianmollusc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/precambrianmollusc/32/63_2.png) [@Precambrianmollusc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Precambrianmollusc)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/420 "2015-07-23T18:51:14Z")
> [@sangfroid](#): > > That said, the two others who’ve dropped my name, **Dante G** and **Precambrianmollusc** have done so under the guises of “just because”, and that I suspect a diversionary wolf fight (which I do), respectively. I’ve yet to actually name any names myself. > > Somebody here could use the spotlight treatment, but it isn’t me. Now I have Primal Scream “movin’ on up” stuck in th ehead I’m moving on up now, getting out of the darkness My light shines on, my light shines on, my light shines on for no real reason. Anyway day one votes often kill a townie and they are often for shitty reason, not much that can be done about that, which is not to say one shouldn’t try to find the truth. Voyes and going on record helps us , I don’t think a vote has to be final, but better to get them out there. In my humble opinion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099.md?page=22)