# MAFIA: The Game - Ideal for Beginners \[Game in Progress\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Thread Games\ **Created:** [July 14, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099 "2015-07-14T00:45:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/721 "2015-07-29T20:52:23Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Then, suddenly septimus gets three more votes, from Diggit, Sario, and Dante G. None of them justified their votes at all; Diggit said he “seems the scummiest”, Sario said he “agrees with the case against Septimus” (what case?!), and Dante G claims that Johnny Bravo “pointed out some pretty convincing things.” I would bet my eyeteeth that there are at least two scum among those three. > > \ > > Johnny Bravo made what I thought was a very bogus case against septimus. On the other hand, he was about the only septimus voter who seemed at all interested in actually making a case, and he was the first to vote for him, so can’t be accused of jumping on a bandwagon. It’s possible that he was scum trying to keep his head down and cast a one-off vote, but since we now know that Chronos was Town, it seems likely that a wolf would have been more likely to jump on his bandwagon (or on JSexton’s or Dante G’s, if they are Town). Despite him pressing a ludicrous case against septimus, I still have relatively low suspicion. > > \ > > Diggit, Sario, Dante G: provided 3rd, 4th and 5th votes to put septimus in serious jeopardy. None of them offered a good reason for their vote, then or ever. Massive suspicion. **Thing Fish** , thanks for this post. I’m going to go back and check your work when I can, but this generally squares with my recollection. I snipped your post to highlight the parts that I especially agree with and/or found persuasive. I continue to think **TexCat** is town. If I were a wolf, and I saw the town barreling toward lynching one of two townies, I sure wouldn’t get in the way. I’d probably keep my head down and watch the fun. It looks like **Sario** , after his vote of **septimus** , pretty much stayed on the sidelines. To be fair, I did not contribute much either, but I did maintain throughout that I thought **septimus** was town, and I never got on the **TexCat** bandwagon. **Sario** did put a vote down on **septimus** , for not the most persuasive reasons, then sat back and watched us turn on each other. I still haven’t started to lean heavily one way or the other on **Dante G** or **Diggit Camera** , but I am becoming suspicious of **Sario**. > [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Although, as I’ve said, I do think there are some legitimate reasons to be suspicious of\*\* TexCat,\*\* I think it is entirely correct that **Plumpudding’s** case against her was a tissue of lies, mischaracterizations and innuendos **(it also didn’t escape my notice that his attack on AFAIK our only female player was peppered with a steady stream of accusations of her being “overly emotional”, “hysterical”, and other sexist code words**). > > And although he never voted for him, Plumpudding was pushing the septimus mislynch just as hard and with just as much BS. At one point Plumpudding mentioned, apparently with pride, that when playing in person he tends to “point fingers and yell until the spittle flies” (quote may not be exact), and that’s exactly what it felt like he was doing in the second half of the Day – throwing a temper tantrum with no facts or reasoning to back it up. > > But, although I thought he was certainly not helping Town find scum, and was making the game less fun, I didn’t see any clear clue to his alignment yesterDay; he seemed as likely to be obnoxious Town as Scum. My bold. Yes. I agree 100% that **Plumpudding’s** attacks on **TexCat** were mostly scattershot personal attacks with a hefty dose of sexist language. I don’t know if he’s a wolf, but I am tempted to vote him for being a jerk. > [@Mahaloth](#): > > What a bunch of shit. I suggest killing Prof. Pepperwhateveritis and Jsexton ASAP. I still have suspicions of **JSexton**. Not sure about **Pepperwinkle** yet. I’d like to hear your thoughts on him. I’ll hold off on voting for now. But I would like to hear **Sario** explain his vote a little better and let us know what he was up to last Night. ---
**Author:** ![Dante\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@Dante\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dante_G)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/722 "2015-07-29T21:26:18Z")
> [@Biotop](#): > > And could we have some more participation from those who posted little on the first day please. If I die I think I owe the town my thoughts, which will still live on. You owe the town the same. > > **Dante G.** , I know we have two players whose names both begin with “P.” I myself might confuse some of the players who have participated little in the game so far. But having gone over the final hours of the Day 1 many times in the past two days, I don’t see how you could confuse the two “P” players. I hope everyone will read and reread those painful pages to try and figure out what happened. But you know who has no reason to read them over and thus might confuse two key players? Wolves. They are not trying to discern loyalty. They already know. My only excuse for confusing the 2 players is the fact that I was reading the thread, while at work and was distracted with phone calls coming into my headset. I replied to posts while distracted, hence then confusion. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/723 "2015-07-29T21:29:28Z")
Avenge me, Town! Meanwhile I’m off to read some forbidden commentary. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/724 "2015-07-29T23:12:31Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Pepperwinkle and Chitwood soon popped up to vote TexCat, both of them justifying their votes by saying that they didn’t buy the case against septimus. > > […] > > Now, with less than two hours left in the Day, Chitwood suddenly decided that TexCat and septimus looked equally Townish, and moved his vote to Dante G, creating a 6-6 tie. > > […] > Chitwood, Pepperwinkle: Last minute vote shifts to hang a Townie look suspicious as hell, but the problem is that they had initially voted for TexCat at a time which put TexCat in real danger. Can’t imagine scum doing that if TexCat is scum, also can’t imagine them drawing attention to themselves at the very end of the Day in order to ninja lynch one Townie rather than another. So the conclusion that seems logical is “Because these two players switched their votes at the last minute, which resulted in a mislynch, they must be Town!” I refuse to accept that conclusion because it seems far too weird, but for now I have low suspicion of these guys. So, don’t get me wrong - I switched votes late in the Day and our doc got killed. I welcome and deserve suspicion. If you’re curious about my internal narrative, it’s a lot simpler than that. I didn’t think the case against **TexCat** was very strong, but I did not understand what the case against **septimus** even was. I voted **TexCat** on what was, I think now, a premature resignation to the fact that the _only_ way I could help avoid a mislynch was to vote for the person between the two who seemed less Townish. In retrospect there was time to at least try to stick to my guns, as I was basically sitting in front of my computer in my office the whole end of Day. “Suddenly decided they looked equally townish” is, I think, a pretty dramatic way of looking at what I did. I wished I had never switched my vote, is the truth of what happened. I wished I had stuck with my initial #1 choice and not contributed to the either/or dynamic between **TexCat** and **septimus** , and realized it actually wasn’t too late to avoid throwing good money after bad. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/725 "2015-07-29T23:16:14Z")
> [@Precambrianmollusc](#): > > Why would you vote to protect Septimus? > I could understand if you said " I voted for texcat because I found her to be the more scummy of the two leading lynch candidates" , but claiming your vote reason was to protect some one you had no idea was town, makes no sense. > You now know that Septimus was town, but that would be retroactively applying your reasoning for voting for texcat, sounds to me like you are a wolf and trying to claim some town cred by claiming to protect a now confirmed town > > Vote Thingfish Dude. Really? Read what I posted, already. septimus’ first two votes came in posts 460 and 461. In post 464, which I already quoted in my long post above, I said: (post snipped for the benefit of those with short attention spans) > [@](#): > > I am very suspicious of those voting for septimus. > > For pointing out fatal flaws in the plan, septimus and Biotop look like near-certain Town to me. Chronos, not so much. OK, so I was wrong about Chronos. And by pretty simple logic, since I was almost sure that **septimus** was town, that meant that I thought **TexCat** was the scummiest of the two, which is exactly why I voted for her, which is exactly what I said at the time I voted. Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Precambrianmollusc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/precambrianmollusc/32/63_2.png) [@Precambrianmollusc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Precambrianmollusc)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/726 "2015-07-29T23:16:38Z")
If plum was scum and texcat town , it is odd that a scum plum would be all over her so much given it it would be a town mis lynch either way. I think plum is more likely an active, but muddled town. If texcat was scum then the pull away from j sexton could be an attempt to get septimus dead, that would assume that a few wolves were voting for j sexton and so they didn’t have enough spare votes to pile further into sexton. It is dangerous for wolves to intervene and they must know that kind of thing would pull some heat. If texcat were on the cusp of being lynched and if she is a wolf , why no false claim? A wolf about to be lynched has nothing to loose so if texcat were a wolf , she must have been pretty certain her fellow wolves would be able to pull the heat off of her . Sorry for lack of formatting , on tapatalk on a opine and can only see two short lines of text . ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/727 "2015-07-29T23:19:29Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Looking back, I agree, I was wrong, wrong, wrong. What I am confused by is in what exact way you were wrong. Who did you think was the wolfiest person an hour before the lynch? Who did you think was the wolfiest at end of Day? If they’re different, what caused it? ---
**Author:** ![Precambrianmollusc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/precambrianmollusc/32/63_2.png) [@Precambrianmollusc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Precambrianmollusc)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/728 "2015-07-29T23:19:32Z")
But here you said you voted to protect septimus , not that texcat was more scum like, it’s the post event revision of the reason that is pinging me . ---
**Author:** ![Precambrianmollusc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/precambrianmollusc/32/63_2.png) [@Precambrianmollusc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Precambrianmollusc)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/729 "2015-07-29T23:30:37Z")
That was responding to thingfish ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/730 "2015-07-30T00:22:50Z")
It’s Jsexton for me, or Prof. Pepperwinkle. I’d say let’s lynch jsexton. **Vote Jsexton** ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/731 "2015-07-30T01:27:23Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > What I am confused by is in what exact way you were wrong. > > Who did you think was the wolfiest person an hour before the lynch? Who did you think was the wolfiest at end of Day? If they’re different, what caused it? I had no idea. I was following the mob. At the end of Day the most suspicious person was Cygnus42, 'cause he kept switching his vote. That’s not enough for me to switch my vote, though. ---
**Author:** ![sangfroid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@sangfroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sangfroid)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/732 "2015-07-30T01:42:14Z")
Wow…lots to cover here toDay. One of my reasons for voting **TexCat** in the last round was due to **Chronos’** thought processes in conjunction with my own suspicions. Those suspicions are even higher now. I’m also looking very closely at those who have cavalierly tossed my name out there for essentially no reason at all. Doesn’t get much scummier to me. More to read; more to post. I do know this: the wolves may be relishing in their victory, but Town can bounce back with an efficient hunt today. Clearly, some very crafty adversaries are conspiring against us. Just who do you believe might have the expertise, and particularly the expertise _here in this place_, to have sussed out not one but two of our key players right off the bat? ---
**Author:** ![Plumpudding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Plumpudding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plumpudding)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/733 "2015-07-30T01:46:12Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > THIS! > > Although, as I’ve said, I do think there are some legitimate reasons to be suspicious of\*\* TexCat,\*\* I think it is entirely correct that **Plumpudding’s** case against her was a tissue of lies, mischaracterizations and innuendos (it also didn’t escape my notice that his attack on AFAIK our only female player was peppered with a steady stream of accusations of her being “overly emotional”, “hysterical”, and other sexist code words). Oh wow. I’m not gonna be sorry for attacking our one “hysterical” players for being “hysterical”, because she’s a woman. Please, it’s a game, if you want to accuse me of being a misygonist, do it somewhere else. Read her posts, and tell me if you don’t notice a different level of emotion than from a post of mine. > [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > THIS!And although he never voted for him, Plumpudding was pushing the septimus mislynch just as hard and with just as much BS. At one point Plumpudding mentioned, apparently with pride, that when playing in person he tends to “point fingers and yell until the spittle flies” (quote may not be exact), and that’s exactly what it felt like he was doing in the second half of the Day – throwing a temper tantrum with no facts or reasoning to back it up. I did mention that, but I have no idea where you get “with pride” from. I didn’t trust **Septimus**. I felt he could have explained himself a lot better, like f.ex. why he distrusted **Chronos** , other than “because we’ve played together before”. I was also quite clear on **TexCat** being a much better Day One lynch. > [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > But, although I thought he was certainly not helping Town find scum, and was making the game less fun, I didn’t see any clear clue to his alignment yesterDay; he seemed as likely to be obnoxious Town as Scum. I may be obnoxious, and you may vote whatever you want. I hope you don’t vote with me being obnoxious as a reason. > [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > But then. Eight minutes after we have discovered that we have not only lynched Town, but lynched one of our power roles: You feel I was party to that? > [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > :mad: ARE :mad: YOU :mad:FUCKING :mad:KIDDING :mad: ME??? > > I usually don’t put much stock in accusations that someone’s unfortunate choice of words represents a “scum slip”, but I honestly can’t imagine how any Town player could have had that reaction. The only possible explanation I can think of is that he got confused and thought he was posting in his scum forum. So he is a fifth player I would be very happy to see on the gallows toDay. Ummm, we didn’t know if it was a tie or not? Atleast I didn’t know. We had no official count, and by mine they both had the same number of votes. Other than that, it was an _exhilarating_ day! It wasn’t boring. Only very detrimental. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/734 "2015-07-30T01:57:40Z")
> [@sangfroid](#): > > Wow…lots to cover here toDay. > One of my reasons for voting **TexCat** in the last round was due to **Chronos’** thought processes in conjunction with my own suspicions. Those suspicions are even higher now. > > I’m also looking very closely at those who have cavalierly tossed my name out there for essentially no reason at all. Doesn’t get much scummier to me. > > More to read; more to post. > I do know this: the wolves may be relishing in their victory, but Town can bounce back with an efficient hunt today. > > Clearly, some very crafty adversaries are conspiring against us. > > Just who do you believe might have the expertise, and particularly the expertise _here in this place_, to have sussed out not one but two of our key players right off the bat? Just to attend to the last question: I think it was dumb luck. There were 5 out of 14 for the first instance, and 4 out of 13 for the second, giving a product of 10 out of 91, or about 11%. Not that uncommon. ---
**Author:** ![Plumpudding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Plumpudding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plumpudding)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/735 "2015-07-30T02:02:25Z")
Okay. What a horrible result. BUT, we’re not dead yet. This is gonna be a long one, but please bear with me. We have way too many players who post very little, and \*when \*they post, add little to the discussion. This is \*\*NOT \*\*good for town. Please join the discussion! If you don’t post, even if you \*are \*town, you’re only harming town by being one more undeciferable variable. Killing the loud for being \*\*LOUD \*\*is \*\*NOT \*\*a great strategy, as the loud make the game. Lynch players for \*what \*they say, or \*why \*they \*\*MIGHT \*\*say such a thing, not how they say it. I feel I have to explain what I’ve been doing and thinking in greater detail. Some posters seem to be unsure about my intentions. Quite late in the day, I began ramping up on my attacks on \*\*Septimus \*_and **TexCat**. I especially wanted to put heat on TexCat, who I felt was **BY FAR** acting the most scummy of all the suspects. I’m gonna go over her case again in a later post, as a lot have changed and some of my suspicions have been rendered ridiculous, but as a Day One lynch I felt she was a good bet. I noticed that she had a trend of defending herself emotionally, without backing her opinions with sound reasoning. I thought I’d made it quite clear why was I harping on her, and that people would begin noticing this trend too. She continued to defend herself, getting more and more “hysterical”_ and finally voted me in self-defense. That was a good thing, in my opinion, as that eliminated a vote on **Septimus** , making it more likely she herself would hang. I wrote post 590 and continued to answer her directly for that vote to stay. I knew of course that she would always have the possibility of voting \*\*\*\*Septimus \*\*\*\*again last minute, but there wasn’t a clear tie yet. If anyone would have followed her in her vote on me, as in **Precambrianmollusc** ’s vote-after-deadline, that would have been good too. Unfortunately, people began doubting their own cases(or they never had a case) against \*\*TexCat \*\*and began switching votes away from her. I tried to dial my tone down a bit and stop focussing directly at her, but it was probably too late. Maybe I appeared a bit over-confident; what I was confident about was \*\*TexCat \*\*being a good lynch, not her being scum(even though I directly stated she was several times, same with **Septimus** , though my read of him was more of a general suspicion). I have to say I was hoping for a little support, but oh well. \*\*TexCat \*\*changed her vote again and \*\*Septimus \*\*changed it back, creating a potential tie. I’m not sure if **Cygnus42** ’s unvote was valid or not, so I don’t know if there actually was a tie, but I would ask people to seriously look into posters voting and switching last minute. In my opinion this does not bode well for **TexCat** ’s defense, but I’ll get back to that. This was also a long day with a lot of discussion in all directions, so I’m quite dissappointed more people didn’t show up in the last hour, partaking in what I would think is the most critical point of the discussion. I feel \*\*Septimus \*\*should have claimed earlier giving more people time to change their mind. Two minutes is way too short for anyone but the most attentative to change their opinion, and I think he should have realised too many players were absent for a large switch to occur that late. He should have have been able to live until next day by protecting himself, we could have analyzed potential counter-claims, and if no counter would have appeared it would have meant he was either what he claimed to be or a wolf, and it would have given him time to prepare his case and post his role PM. If he’d managed to convince people, we would have had a claimed town in the Day Two vote, even if he’d gotten NK’d Night Two. Maybe not the best case scenario for a Guardian, but a lot better than the mess we’re in now. One good thing to come out of this whole situation, is that I’m fairly sure **Cugnus42** , a poster I didn’t really feel any way about, is IMO more than probable town. He unvoted on the minute, and I feel that shows he intended to see if someone would confirm, or to see how Septimus would choose to defend himself. One could see a wolf doing that, but only playing a very high game, unvoting, HOPING for a tie that would kill off ONE of them, then defending himself. Instead he could have kept his vote, claiming he was absent and then stay off the radar. I think that is very unlikely. So, to me, he looks more or less confirmed town. Okay, \*\*Chronos \*\*was town. I was really hoping he wouldn’t get lynched. That gives some information. I’m gonna look back and see if I can get some information out of that. A few others things to mention, **Jsexton** , didn’t vote.\*\* Prof. Pepperwinkle\*\* voted last minute on \*\*Septimus \*\*without stating a reason, and for the record, that has been his mo all along. His participation has been low, and mostly consisting of one liners. \*\*Chronos \*\*didn’t appear last hour, but I remember him saying that he would have difficulties with participating near end of days. This is OOG and also directed at storyteller about participation: It would have been great with an official vote-count. We had been asking for several pages for that and the new tie-mechanism with no answer. I also asked in a pm about timezones, which I never got a reply about. That late in the day, I felt too little attention was being devoted by storyteller and some players, and things became messy and confusing when things could have been much clearer. Another OOG thing I wanna say: I do not intend to personally attack anyone. If I call someone f.ex. Worthless, I mean worthless in game-context and player-input, not personally. I don’t know any of you, but i’ll wager all of you are great persons. If anyone feel I’ve been stepping over the bound of the game, I’ll apologize (on the condition that it actually IS a personal attack!). I am playing a game and that’s it. I get very involved, I’ve had great fun so far and I hope to have more. I want everyone to know that whatever happens, do not take it personally, as I don’t. And again, switching and hopping on wagons last minute is not in towns favour, and so is voting for no **reason**. If we are gonna get through this, now that the game suddenly got a \*\*LOT \*\*harder, we will need to post substantially and share our thoughts, or we will **loose**. - She seems, to me, to have mainly agrued by appeal to emotion, by (fake?)outrage and by trying to tar other players, which isn’t very helpful in a game about sussing out motives, but I’ll get back to her case in another post. [372](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18539499&postcount=372), [379](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18540039&postcount=379), [380](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18540064&postcount=380) > [@TexCat](#): > > [Snip] > I find this continued lying and mischaracterization intolerable. > > \*\*unvote Septimus > vote Plumpudding > > \*\* [583](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18551046&postcount=583), [610](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18552096&postcount=610) ---
**Author:** ![Cygnus42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Cygnus42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cygnus42)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/736 "2015-07-30T02:41:05Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Cygnus42: Broke the tie to put septimus on top with five minutes to go = huge, massive scumtell. Unvoted after the claim; not sure what to make of this. It’s what a Townie would have done; or, since it didn’t affect the outcome, what a Wolf looking for town cred might have done. But this would have required him to be quite sure about the vote count at the last minute, which seems unlikely. But then, if he was Town and believed the roleclaim, why did he only unvote septimus, but not vote for TexCat? Still going with “Massive suspicion”. Want to clarify a bit on a couple points, starting here - I don’t believe I broke the tie on septimus - the unofficial count above had it at 7-5 before my vote. Though, honestly, I didn’t know exactly were things stood on the count. When I attempted the un-vote of septimus, I knew I was short on time. So, I didn’t take the extra time to type out & format a vote for Tex (or more likely, Dante G). As it was, I was probably too late, but didn’t affect the outcome regardless. I was concerned about the Day ending in a tie though - we don’t currently know the tiebreaker policy. I think I recall one game on this board that I followed along, where a tie at EOD was ‘no lynch’. I didn’t want to see that outcome, so I did try to avoid a tie. My thought process was a lot like what **Jimmy Chitwood** said below, though with the opposite conclusion. I considered \*\*Texcat \*\*to be probably less scummy, so I tossed the vote on **septimus**. Also, from Prof P: > [@](#): > > I had no idea. I was following the mob. > At the end of Day the most suspicious person was Cygnus42, 'cause he kept switching his vote. That’s not enough for me to switch my vote, though. It’s easy enough to look back and see I didn’t ‘keep switching my vote’. I voted once early on for **JSexton** , and switched to \*\*septimus \*\*at nearly the last minute - then unvoted the vote. Obviously, the vote for septimus was ill-advised, but you can’t say I kept switching my vote. ---
**Author:** ![Precambrianmollusc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/precambrianmollusc/32/63_2.png) [@Precambrianmollusc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Precambrianmollusc)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/737 "2015-07-30T03:02:36Z")
> [@sangfroid](#): > > Wow…lots to cover here toDay. > > One of my reasons for voting **TexCat** in the last round was due to **Chronos’** thought processes in conjunction with my own suspicions. Those suspicions are even higher now. > > Snip > > I’m also looking very closely at those who > > Just who do you believe might have the expertise, and particularly the expertise _here in this place_, to have sussed out not one but two of our key players right off the bat? So retroactively covering your reasoning for a texcat vote by cosying up to an uninformed vote by a known town. “Look I voted for the same reason as a now known town so I must be ok.”. The only thing I assume Chronos knew about texcat was that she was not a mason ( unless there was some bizarre “I’ll vote for a fellow Mason to cover up things” weirdness) Do you think scum Sussed out that septimus was a town role and engineered the lynch? All they could have known was septimus was town and we can either assume they engineered a lynch away from texcat or sexton , or rally didn’t care who got lynched. Your professed certainty that this happened seams deliberately designed to smudge experienced players, when as a town could you have no certainty of scum k owing who septimus and Chronos were. Both sangfroid and thingfish are using info we have now to make their votes seam more town like. ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/738 "2015-07-30T03:40:01Z")
> [@sangfroid](#): > > Just who do you believe might have the expertise, and particularly the expertise _here in this place_, to have sussed out not one but two of our key players right off the bat? Nonsense. No one sniffed out any power roles. How could they? There was nothing to indicate that **septimus** was the Guardian. If he\* was\* a target it could only have been to protect **TexCat**. Otherwise he was just a target of our collective blundering stupidity. In either case the wolves got lucky. I feel bad about **Chronos** , because we had already pretty much agreed he was town and he is obviously a smart and talented player. His player skills are a huge loss to us, I fear. Wolves are not going to kill anyone we are suspicious of without a very good reason, so a smart experienced low-suspicion target was their choice. And they got lucky again. ---
**Author:** ![sangfroid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@sangfroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sangfroid)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/739 "2015-07-30T04:09:41Z")
> [@Biotop](#): > > Nonsense. No one sniffed out any power roles… _[snip]_ > …the wolves got lucky. > …And they got lucky again._[/snip]_ With respect, **Biotop** , I just do not believe in that much luck. Two key Townspeople in one cycle? I agree that the wolves would likely have no real way to tag our Guardian, but something sure stinks here and it ain’t just the decomposing carcasses of our Guardian and Third Mason. There was so much churn and misdirection this cycle about the tie vote potential, self-voting, and so on as well as the typical big heaping pile of last-minute shenanigans that I’m surprised anyone Town can even think straight at the moment. Excellent wolf strategy in my opinion. We all know this is a game of information. And disinformation. And misdirection. For myself, I am taking a very close look at those who put a whole lot of effort into adding to that big 'ol pile of churn (the recently dearly departed excepted, of course). ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099/740 "2015-07-30T05:06:46Z")
I was away from my computer all day Monday, and on my return, read what ensued in the last hours with a kind of sickened fascination. What a fucking own-goal this all was. And now with **Chronos** having been a Mason, we’re down two power roles and the thing has barely started. My first thought was that we’re completely hosed, but I’m rallying. Early days and all. So I’m trying to process all this and come out the other side with a position I can justify. Firstly, I was not very convinced by the argument for septimus being scum (recall I had [voted for **DanteG** earlier](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18550223&postcount=565)), although I didn’t really have much to counter with besides my own instinct. Had the vote proceeded more organically, it appears likely TexCat would have got the rope, which, assuming she were town, would be almost as big a mistake as lynching septimus. (More on that anon.) So the most generous interpretation would be that a (probable) townsperson was going to to get it either way, and the fact that septimus turned out to be the Guardian was simple bad luck. (And septimus’ refusal to claim until literally the last minute was, as he admits, a big mistake.) However, there is a consistent theme that’s jumping out at me as I read today’s post-mortems. I am highlighting the passages that are relevant and eliminating some that aren’t, and am not trying to misrepresent anyone’s arguments. > [@Cygnus14](#): > > It seemed like with the vote coming down to Texcat or septimus, I thought I should take a position on one or the other. […] > > In retrospect, I probably shoulda stayed out of it, since I didn’t strongly suspect either from the beginning. > [@Prof. Pepperwinkle](#): > > With the vote now 6 for TexCat and 7 for septimus, it occurs to me if I change my vote, septimus can’t get the tie he seems to be looking for. I unvote TexCat and vote for septimus, making it 5-8, and making a tie implausible with 2 minutes to go. > [@Jimmy Chitwood](#): > > I didn’t think the case against TexCat was very strong, but I did not understand what the case against septimus even was. I voted TexCat on what was, I think now, a premature resignation to the fact that the only way I could help avoid a mislynch was to vote for the person between the two who seemed less Townish. > [@Thing Fish](#): > > So now, with 24 hours left in the Day, it’s 6-5 TexCat. I also voted for TexCat to protect septimus; 7-5. **Prof. Pepperwinkle** then cuts to the chase: > [@](#): > > I had no idea [who the wolfiest person was]. I was following the mob. I get that this is a game of strategies and counter-strategies, and that a lot of people here plainly understand these better than me. But it’s hard to escape the conclusion that **had people simply voted for the player they themselves thought was scummiest,** we probably wouldn’t have ended up lynching our own Guardian. I do not understand the line of reasoning that concludes, “Unless I vote for one of the top candidates, my vote is meaningless.” I voted **DanteG** and in no way think my vote was wasted; he was the best candidate I could determine (at the time — again, more on that anon), and I wanted to make sure I was heard even if I was a sidelight to the “main” debate re: **septimus** and **TexCat**. > [@Jimmy Chitwood](#): > > I wished I had never switched my vote, is the truth of what happened. I wished I had stuck with my initial #1 choice and not contributed to the either/or dynamic between TexCat and septimus, and realized it actually wasn’t too late to avoid throwing good money after bad. My thoughts too. The best thing I know how to do for our side is to weigh the evidence myself, make a conclusion and stand by it. I hope to keep doing that and I hope to be called out if I don’t. OK, got that off my chest. What to do now? I weigh three possibilities: 1. The lynch was a concerted effort by scum to kill septimus 2. The lynch was a concerted effort by scum to save TexCat 3. The lynch was a result of guesswork and miscommunication and no strategy was behind it **Thing Fish** makes a strong case for #1. The only problem I have with it is I don’t see why septimus should have been targeted in the first place, or indeed, how scum could have engineered such a sweeping, under-the-radar pile-on. I agree with Biotop: I don’t think the other side had any inkling septimus was Guardian > [@Biotop](#): > > But what motivation does a wolf have to go after someone so hard on the first day? It would draw attention and had we listened and voted TexCat, it would place suspicion on him for leading the charge when she was found innocent. “When”? And finally: > [@Biotop](#): > > And could we have some more participation from those who posted little on the first day please. Mea culpa. Having already voted for Dante G, I don’t think I could have directly swayed the vote against septimus; he wasn’t 100% town in my book, but the case against him certainly seemed light compared to some others. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-ideal-for-beginners-game-in-progress/725099.md?page=38)