# Mafia The Game III: Kinder and Gentler **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 17, 2007, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527 "2007-04-17T21:34:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 122
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2007, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/2421 "2007-06-19T00:39:02Z")
[QUOTE=ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies] Ah but you said you were having fun, and that opens up the possibility that you’d want to extend that fun as long as possible, which could provide enough motivation to prolong our tortu…I mean, “entertainment”. 😉 [/QUOTE] … c’mon. I’m not the cat lover around here… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![nesta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a4c791/32.png) [@nesta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nesta)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2007, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/2422 "2007-06-19T02:57:14Z")
I guess since you say you are a mason **Diggit** that you probably are. **Hal’s** defense of you makes no sense otherwise now that we know he was a mason. I’m trying to figure out a reason why you might have taken out your fellow masons, and as you point out there isn’t a compelling one. Why give yourself a chance to lose if you had a guaranteed win by sticking with the masons. All I can come up with is that if you were recruited and decided to go for a mafia only win you would have to take them out at night since you couldn’t turn on them during the day. My problem with this is that I think the rules made it clear that your primary loyalty would stay with the masons if recruited, meaning that you should have been going for a mason win if possible, and it would have been. Of course, I’m not sure how **Gadarene** would enforce this if you did decide to switch your loyalty, or even if she would (I could be wrong about the rules), since enforcing it would have ended the game if it was done in any public way. I’m not sure if you would do this. I don’t really know you or how you would play if recruited, but I’m having a hard time thinking that it would have played out this way had you been. Now, if by some chance you aren’t really a mason, **Hal** is really kicking himself over in the forbidden thread. That would be a fun read when this is all over. I know that makes it sound like I’m accusing **Cookies** by saying I’m having a hard time seeing how the only other choice could be the recruit, but really, I’m not sure about her either. I don’t want to make a mistake here and just blindly vote for her only to have **Diggit** jump on and find out I’ve been used as a pawn in **Diggit’s** master plan. This warrants a lot more thought. **Cookies** , I do have a question for you. Yesterday when you voted for **Diggit** to tie it up, did you think **Diggit** was more likely to be scum than **tirial**? The reason I ask is because up until the extension I thought the rules established in this game were that a tie went to [random.org](http://random.org). The extension seems to be a little controversial now, and I can kind of see why, but it did give a chance for further discussion which might help today. Did you think the extension would happen or did you force the tie thinking it would be a coin-flip between **tirial** and **Diggit**? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2007, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/2423 "2007-06-19T03:07:25Z")
> [@](#): > > even if she would _male cough_ ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2007, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/2424 "2007-06-19T03:22:04Z")
When I tied it up, I was thinking that it would extend the deadline, and I was hoping to get the chance for more discussion from everyone. I didn’t realize how the rules of this particular game were stippulated for a tie, and I chalk that up to my crappy memory plus reading/playing too much Mafia in the past few months. As for who I suspected more, I really wasn’t confident enough in any direction at that point, which was why I decided to vote for a tie. I assumed that Hal’s availability issue had also weighed into Gad’s extension once it was announced. Oddly enough, even if I had been correctly remembering the rules about a random tie-breaker, I probably would’ve still decided to force a tie. 50/50 was more attractive than having to make that decision myself. I certainly didn’t anticipate any controversy. ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2007, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/2425 "2007-06-19T15:55:52Z")
[QUOTE=nesta] I guess since you say you are a mason **Diggit** that you probably are. **Hal’s** defense of you makes no sense otherwise now that we know he was a mason. (snip) [/QUOTE] Don’t forget **Millit** ’s [defense](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8637411&postcount=2114) of me. At that time she piled high praise on me and I actually [had to tell](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8639114&postcount=2124) her not to trust me. Which, if you read it whilst knowing I’m a mason rather reads like a warning not to blow our cover. > [@Millit](#): > > (snip) > 2) I still don’t get the case against Diggit. He led the lynch against Lemur, which is one of the best pro-town moves I’ve seen in the entire game. I’m totally confused and going back and forth on pretty much everyone in this game (I’m even having a hard time being confident in my vote right now), but Diggit has the closest thing I have to a “townie feeling” toward someone else. All of you who are voting against/FOS-ing him–I’m watching you stack up and taking notes for my scum list. > (snip) > [@Diggit](#): > > And that leads me to my next point: I’m flattered you seem to trust me. But let me belabour my point of posts past: Don’t trust anyone but yourself! You have no way to verify my allegiance (short of my lynching or night death) And concerning the possibility of my recruitment, look at it like this: a recruited mason wins both when scum wins and when masons win. Which means he would have to maximize the chances of one of both groups winning. I would have had the perfect chance to maximize the mason’s chances to win, simply by not killing masons (and remember: **Millit** died after **Blaster Master** was lynched. So I wouldn’t even have to worry about other scum’s opinions about the matter). All this leaves me with a dilemma: I’m the only player who doesn’t know who was recruited… ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/2426 "2007-06-20T01:05:07Z")
To anyone who has been expecting a new post round here: my apologies. I have been [riveted](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=425224&page=5&pp=50) by this game. 😛 And, while I’m at it, I’d like to refer you to [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8692916&highlight=motivation+prolong+tortu+entertainment#post8692916). 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/2427 "2007-06-20T17:15:51Z")
Ok, then. Let’s get this moving again. I was hoping one or the other of the remaining two players would post, giving me a bit more of a hold, but I guess they’d rather wait for my move. I’ve been looking at several angles of the situation. First I tried to find out if there was some way to find out why **Millit** was chosen as the first kill of the Recruit. No dice. And, as far as I know, the Recruit might very well have spotted the post in which **tirial** slipped(?) and pointed out **Millit** , \*\*Blaster Master \*\* and pals might have known before that she was a mason or a number of other reasons. **Hal** , of course, was relatively easy to spot as a mason once **Millit** had been killed so I didn’t even start that line of investigation. I tried to put myself in **Blaster Master** ’s position concerning recruitment options and I can see reasons to recruit both of them. However, I guess at the time **nesta** would have a slight edge, since he’d been “cleared” by **Hal** and his “trap”. I tried to find some kind of variation in their respective posting styles, and/or voting tendencies. **ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies** ( **CTTDSWHC** ) has been consistent and insistent on her votes against me (to the point of voting against me toDay). She seemed to have "[imprinted](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8680778&postcount=2345) " on **tirial** during the day we lynched **Rachm**. > [@CTTDSWHC](#): > > (snip)There was an almost palpable (at least to me) shift in my awareness of her and what she was saying since I returned from getting hitched over Memorial Day weekend. As I was experiencing the “palpableness”, I rationalized it away as likely being due to a suite of non-scummy circumstances. > > ``` > * Fewer players left equals increased prominence of each individual player. > * My attention had been distracted and I was more aware of her because I was more engaged in the game again. > * Some of her observations and analysis were in sync with mine (wrt to Diggit), which has been quite the novelty in this game, and something I couldn't help but notice.(snip) > > ``` And, like I said yesterday, I simply can’t see how her tying vote would have benefitted her position (if she were scum). **nesta** ’s position pre and post-Recruitment has been mostly consistent as well. While we were deciding whom to lynch (between **Blaster Master** and **Rachm** ) he [said](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8636926&postcount=2108) : > [@nesta](#): > > (snip)If I had to vote now I would vote for Blaster Master. As I said earlier, something about him doesn’t seem right. Yes, that’s a bad reason to vote for someone this late in the game, which is why I haven’t voted for him yet. Until today I would have thought that DiggitCamara was a slam dunk, as I just grew more and more convinced of his scuminess, but his actions earlier today cast a lot of doubt on that, and now I really need to go back and figure out if it was tunnel vision that had me convinced he was scum, or if he just managed to act a lot more like a townie today. If I decided Blaster Master isn’t scum and had to cast a vote right then, it would still be for DiggitCamera.(snip) though at the end of that day, he was more [convinced](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8640946&postcount=2159) I was scum. > [@nesta](#): > > (snip)Bah. I’m going to leave my vote where it is. I don’t think Rachm is scum, so I feel like the game is pretty much lost. Oh well. > > There’s still a few minutes for a couple of you to switch over to Diggit with me… There are, however, [two](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8663081&postcount=2286) [posts](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8663187&postcount=2288) during the day we lynched **Blaster Master** that seem to be carefully worded defenses for **Blaster Master** : > [@nesta](#): > > (snip)A lot of my suspicion for Blaster Master started with the way he handled the Kyrie Eleison death and breadcrumb. Millit the Frail nailed some of it in her post she linked to earlier. I think it’s incredibly scummy that he denied so vehemently that fluiddruid was the breadcrumb, but didn’t choose the only other obvious one, which was the anti-FOS of him. Pretty much all his posts about the breadcrumb seem very off to me. > > Combine the way he handled the breadcrumb with his actions the last few (in-game) days, and he feels really scummy to me. I’ll admit I didn’t like the way he went after me yesterday. It feels like he took Hal’s bait and hoped everyone would run with it. > > Unfortunately I ran out of time and didn’t get a chance to look through many of Blaster Master’s posts. I did get through many of DiggitCamara’s, though, hoping to find what is making Hal so convinced he’s town. I’m not seeing it. His actions and posts feel very scummy to me. I would vote for Diggit right now based on what I found, but Hal’s strong conviction has given me pause.(snip) > [@nesta](#): > > (snip)The only way I think you can be so sure of Diggit is if you’re on the same team. I don’t think you were originally scum, but you could be now. You say tirial might have been recruited based on his pushing for Diggit’s lynch, but you’re pushing about as hard as possible for Blaster Master’s. I feel like I could be making a huge mistake even considering taking your word for it that Diggit is town. > > If I vote for Blaster Master, that pretty much seals his fate. If he’s town, we could lose right then if there are two original scum left. Even if there’s only one scum left it puts us in a really bad situation tomorrow. > > I really have to go. I’m already running really late. > > Very well Hal, I’m going to vote Blaster Master. I hope I’m not being suckered here. If he comes up town, though, I’m going to vote for you to the end. > > Goddamnit, I don’t feel good about this at all. I won’t have a chance to find out the results until later tonight. Bah. I should have thought about this before making plans.(snip) The first one, of course is… oddly reminiscent of **Lemur866** ’s careful [defense](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8524694&postcount=912) of fluiddruid on Day 3: > [@Lemur866](#): > > OK, let’s consider that Kyrie fingers fluiddruid, and winds up dead. First, I can’t believe the scum knew Kyrie was the detective. Not enough to go on. But consider the scenario. The scum know Kyrie fingered fluiddruid. Kyrie ends up dead. Suspicion falls on fluiddruid. We lynch fluiddruid. Just like they wanted us to. Of course, they knew we’d know this…crap. I’m not going to defend fluiddruid too much, just point out that the scum are trying to confuse us. It’s a huge FOS on fluiddruid…but if we go with it and lynch her it means we’re doing what the scum expect. It might be worth lynching fluiddruid just to verify her status, but the strategy of lynching players who were fingered by murder victims has the obvious flaw that the scum can always find someone who fingered a townie and murder them and therefore point the finger at an innocent person. (which, by the way, led me to vote for **Lemur866** ) Now, during the next Day (yesterDay) **nesta** was [leaning towards voting](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8683813&postcount=2360) **tirial** > [@nesta](#): > > (snip)I’ll try to say something more substantial tonight, but right now the most likely recruit I can see is tirial, followed by Cookies, Diggit, and Hal in that order. but suddenly [reversed course](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8685085&postcount=2364) with a vote against **CTTDSWHC** > [@nesta](#): > > (snip)I’m going to vote ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies. I think she’s the most likely recruit, and her actions yesterday and today seem scummy to me. after finding himself on **Hal** ’s [menu](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8684456&postcount=2361) : > [@Hal](#): > > (snip)I’m…mmmm…let’s call it 85% certain that either tirial or nesta is the recruit. Which one though, I have no idea.(snip) My guess is nesta knew Hal was a mason (he thought **Hal** was unreasonable in my defense unless we were on the same team) and was preparing his ground for today. My apologies for this convoluted post, but I still had to explain my reasoning to vote nesta ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/2428 "2007-06-20T19:23:39Z")
I’m here. Busy and sad, but here. The doctors have confirmed that my friend has permanent damage to his C1 and C2 vertebrae and brain stem. At this point a best-case-scenario would be similar to how Christopher Reeve lived after his neck injury. I don’t want to even think about the other scenarios. But back to the neglected game… I’ve pointed out the possibility that **nesta’s** posting style and frequency would make him a good recruiting candidate. I’ve pointed it out, pointed other possibilities out, voted contrary to that possibility, tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, and now find myself at the crossroads of no-return. It would take an _extremely_ compelling argument from **nesta** to discredit **Diggit** enough for me to vote for **Diggit** again. I’m going to stop holding my breath for one. **Vote nesta** ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/2429 "2007-06-20T19:40:54Z")
[QUOTE=ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies] I’m here. Busy and sad, but here. The doctors have confirmed that my friend has permanent damage to his C1 and C2 vertebrae and brain stem. At this point a best-case-scenario would be similar to how Christopher Reeve lived after his neck injury. I don’t want to even think about the other scenarios. But back to the neglected game… I’ve pointed out the possibility that **nesta’s** posting style and frequency would make him a good recruiting candidate. I’ve pointed it out, pointed other possibilities out, voted contrary to that possibility, tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, and now find myself at the crossroads of no-return. It would take an _extremely_ compelling argument from **nesta** to discredit **Diggit** enough for me to vote for **Diggit** again. I’m going to stop holding my breath for one. **Vote nesta** [/QUOTE] (color removed) Well, the way I see it, **nesta** is at a crossroad: 1. Discredit me. Which would involve a.) Denying my masonic claim (which would be rather difficult, having already declared himself to be a “normal citizen” and with past testimonials of \*\*Millit \*\*and \*\*Hal \*\*for me) or b.) Somehow refuting my “hybrid mason” scenarios. Which, quite frankly I don’t see. 2. Try to get me to vote for you. So far, he seems to have prepared the ground for [option 1](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8693338&postcount=2422) > [@nesta](#): > > I guess since you say you are a mason Diggit that you probably are. Hal’s defense of you makes no sense otherwise now that we know he was a mason. > > I’m trying to figure out a reason why you might have taken out your fellow masons, and as you point out there isn’t a compelling one. Why give yourself a chance to lose if you had a guaranteed win by sticking with the masons. All I can come up with is that if you were recruited and decided to go for a mafia only win you would have to take them out at night since you couldn’t turn on them during the day. My problem with this is that I think the rules made it clear that your primary loyalty would stay with the masons if recruited, meaning that you should have been going for a mason win if possible, and it would have been. Of course, I’m not sure how Gadarene would enforce this if you did decide to switch your loyalty, or even if she would (I could be wrong about the rules), since enforcing it would have ended the game if it was done in any public way. I’m not sure if you would do this. I don’t really know you or how you would play if recruited, but I’m having a hard time thinking that it would have played out this way had you been. > > Now, if by some chance you aren’t really a mason, Hal is really kicking himself over in the forbidden thread. That would be a fun read when this is all over. (snip) ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/2430 "2007-06-20T19:51:31Z")
So is there a countdown now? Are we done, for better or worse? Is there pie? Nachos? ---
**Author:** ![nesta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a4c791/32.png) [@nesta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nesta)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/2431 "2007-06-20T20:53:25Z")
On preview I see you’ve both posted since I saw **Diggit’s** vote. For what it’s worth, I haven’t read either of your posts since his vote, so if it seems I’m ignoring something it’s because I haven’t seen it. I don’t think I’ll have time for another reply until tonight. – You’re wrong **Diggit**. If you weren’t recruited, and I’ve been thinking it’s unlikely that you were due to the masons being killed, we both lose if you keep your vote on me. I don’t have time for a very detailed defense right now, but I’ll do what I can. I did think you were more likely to be scum than **Blaster Master** on the day he was lynched, right up until I cast my vote. What made me finally vote for him was that **Hal** was so sure, and also the early bandwagon attempt by **tirial** and **Cookies** early that day. The posts you think were defending **Blaster Master** were really just me thinking out loud. At the point I made those posts there were only a few hours left in the day and I still hadn’t made up my mind, so I was hoping to hear back from **Hal** to gauge if he was the recruit and pushing through a lynch to save you. I didn’t realize he was out of town and not able to respond fully, which led to the second post where I voted. I thought there was a good chance I would come back later that night and find out that I had put the nail in a townie’s coffin and made it extremely difficult for us to win. Plus, if I was the recruit why would I be defending **Blaster Master** with so little time left and 3 of the 4 votes needed to lynch him already cast, and then defend him in the same post that I cast the final vote for him? I did think you and **Hal** were masons yesterday due to his defense of you when I didn’t see any reason why. **Millit** was a surprise to me because my read of her had been thin all game. With **Millit** a mason and killed I thought the odds were very high that neither your nor **Hal** was the recruit, which left **tirial** and **Cookies**. **tirial** seemed more scummy overall to me which is why she was at the front of the list I posted. She didn’t make sense as the recruit if it happened on the last no-kill night, though. I decided that it was more likely the recruit happened later rather than earlier, which made me think **Cookies** was more likely to be the recruit. I posted that yesterday to see if anyone agreed with me, and I guess they didn’t. Now it seems I was probably right. Please go back and look at what **Cookies** has done since the no-kill night. She tried to get a bandwagon against you started on the day **Blaster Master** was lynched, and then didn’t vote at all, just like **Blaster Master** didn’t. Yesterday she was all for a **tirial** lynch, until she tied it up with you as the other possible lynchee. She says she thought the day would be extended, but I see no reason why she would think this. When I asked her about it she said she was confused, but then says she would have tied it anyway so she wouldn’t have to make a choice. I think she would have been happy with either of you lynched, since I think she knew you were both town anyway. I don’t know why you don’t find tying up the vote right before the deadline scummy. I certainly do. I’ve been hoping to find some time to go back through **Hal’s** and **Millit’s** posts just to decide once and for all if I trust your mason claim before I put my trust in you as the deciding vote. I was 99% sure of you anyway, and I guess I’m out of time now that the countdown could start any minute. Vote **ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies**. Sorry if this post is incoherent. I was interrupted over and over. I hope to have some time tonight, so I’ll post more then. ---
**Author:** ![nesta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a4c791/32.png) [@nesta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nesta)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/2432 "2007-06-20T21:04:00Z")
One more quick post. Sorry to hear about your friend **Cookies**. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/2433 "2007-06-20T21:10:16Z")
Thanks. I appreciate everyone’s support and allowing me to vent. ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/2434 "2007-06-20T21:23:08Z")
[QUOTE=nesta] You’re wrong **Diggit**. If you weren’t recruited, and I’ve been thinking it’s unlikely that you were due to the masons being killed, we both lose if you keep your vote on me. (snip) Please go back and look at what **Cookies** has done since the no-kill night. She tried to get a bandwagon against you started on the day **Blaster Master** was lynched, and then didn’t vote at all, just like **Blaster Master** didn’t. Yesterday she was all for a **tirial** lynch, until she tied it up with you as the other possible lynchee. She says she thought the day would be extended, but I see no reason why she would think this. When I asked her about it she said she was confused, but then says she would have tied it anyway so she wouldn’t have to make a choice. I think she would have been happy with either of you lynched, since I think she knew you were both town anyway. I don’t know why you don’t find tying up the vote right before the deadline scummy. I certainly do. I’ve been hoping to find some time to go back through **Hal’s** and **Millit’s** posts just to decide once and for all if I trust your mason claim before I put my trust in you as the deciding vote. I was 99% sure of you anyway, and I guess I’m out of time now that the countdown could start any minute. (snip) [/QUOTE] The problem is, I haven’t got a clear read on one of you two. I welcome any and all feedback concerning **ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies** scumminess… but I can’t really see anything. Yeah, I saw her attempt at starting a bandwagon against me. Right after **Rachm** ’s lynch. But not only didn’t it catch, but she backed down from it. And **tirial** continually tried to lynch me, so it isn’t exactly a clear indication of Recruithood, is it? Yes, she didn’t vote against **Blaster Master** … but your vote only came after she indicated she had 75% (or something to that effect) confidence in his scumminess. And then with a show of extreme reluctance. The thing reads (to me) like a last ditch effort to lower someone’s confidence in his vote (Hal, perhaps). And she didn’t vote for him (in time) because she went to see some movie… like she said, I’m guessing she’s telling the truth when Real Life intruded into the game. Your “thinking out loud” reminds me too much of **Lemur866** ’s tepid attempt to save **fluiddruid** as well. And I don’t see any attempt on ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies to defend **Blaster Master** during that day. I for one, don’t want to shorten this day too much. I need input, anything any of you have to strengthen your case. Like I said: Of the three I’m the only one who doesn’t know who has been recruited… [real life]I’m very sorry to hear about your friend. I hope he recovers soon.[/real life] ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/2435 "2007-06-20T21:47:58Z")
[QUOTE=nesta] (snip) Please go back and look at what **Cookies** has done since the no-kill night. She tried to get a bandwagon against you started on the day **Blaster Master** was lynched, and then didn’t vote at all, just like **Blaster Master** didn’t. Yesterday she was all for a **tirial** lynch, until she tied it up with you as the other possible lynchee. She says she thought the day would be extended, but I see no reason why she would think this. When I asked her about it she said she was confused, but then says she would have tied it anyway so she wouldn’t have to make a choice. I think she would have been happy with either of you lynched, since I think she knew you were both town anyway. **I don’t know why you don’t find tying up the vote right before the deadline scummy. I certainly do.** (snip) [/QUOTE] (Bolding mine) That’s the thing. I don’t see _any advantage_ in that behavior to scum. **Cookies** had several options open to her: 1. Not vote 2. Vote for me 3. Vote for tirial 4. Vote for anyone else (you, for instance) Now: A vote for me would tie the vote. According to previous rulings, that would have resulted in a decision by [random.org](http://random.org). And… my death or **tirial** ’s death. If **tirial** had been lynched anyhow, she would have to face a reataliatory vote by me… What for? Voting for you would have been a simple OMGUS vote, and thus easily defensible. And I can see an actual advantage to voting for **tirial** (for scum, that is). Imagine, for instance, that she had been in my place. Imagine that during this day **tirial** wasn’t lynched but that the other citizen was. Which would leave the Doctor and scum going into the night… Guess who would be self-protecting that night? Next positive point (for **Cookies** , that is). Right off the bat she said I was a mason. Since yesterday I have been pointing out (as have you) that a recruited mason was out of the question because **Millit** had been killed (that point has been reinforced via **Hal** ’s death). So: why would the Recruit right off the bat announce that I was the mason? Wouldn’t the Recruit have been better off if the mason remained unidentified? And, if for some obscure reason the Mason was announced by the Recruit, why would she then vote against him? ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/2436 "2007-06-20T23:45:28Z")
> [@nesta](#): > > She says she thought the day would be extended, but I see no reason why she would think this. In Game 4, there was at least one tie with an extension, and further discussion about rules clarification about ties and extension times. I haven’t followed the game very closely since subbing out, so there might be more. I don’t think I’m supposed to ink to another message board, but I can PM you a link to the rules discussion I’m referring to. I’ve tried to find how NAF handled ties in Game 2, but short of reading through the whole Game 2 thread, it is doubtful I’d find it. It isn’t stipulated in his rule posts on pages 2 or 4 of his thread, but it must be covered somewhere. Hell if I can remember exactly how he handled them. [QUOTE=Werewolf (Game 1) Rules] There’s 21 players in the game. At the point at which one player has recieved 8 votes, I’ll announce it and start a 24 hour countdown to Night. You’re free to change your minds during that time, but the player with most votes at the end of that time will be lynched (unless it’s a tie, in which case i’ll choose one of the two at random). If no-one recieves 8 votes, the Day Stage will end at one week from the start (so this Day stage’s maximum time limit is next Friday). [/QUOTE] So, considering that I was tired because it was quite late on the night when I was trying to figure out what to do prior to deciding to force a tie, and considering that there is at least one precedent for an extension due to a tie, and rules involving extensions for all sorts of other voting situations, and considering I’ve played in or observed all current and past games that were played with SDMB members, I think there is plenty to indicate reasonable doubt as to having scummy motives vs being confused in my decision to tie. ---
**Author:** ![nesta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a4c791/32.png) [@nesta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nesta)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/2437 "2007-06-21T03:05:48Z")
[QUOTE=DiggitCamara] (Bolding mine) That’s the thing. I don’t see _any advantage_ in that behavior to scum. **Cookies** had several options open to her: 1. Not vote 2. Vote for me 3. Vote for tirial 4. Vote for anyone else (you, for instance) Now: A vote for me would tie the vote. According to previous rulings, that would have resulted in a decision by [random.org](http://random.org). And… my death or **tirial** ’s death. If **tirial** had been lynched anyhow, she would have to face a reataliatory vote by me… What for? Voting for you would have been a simple OMGUS vote, and thus easily defensible. [/quote] Well, a lot of my initial reasoning for why she tied it up was based on her doing it to get you possibly lynched. I thought she was scum yesterday, and a lot of my theories about why she did that were based on my initial reading when I saw she’d tied it up. Now that I re-read the post where she voted for you, and her recent posts clarifying that she did think there would be an extension, I believe she really did think the extension was a given. Even then, though, I think she had to vote for someone. I had called her out as scum yesterday because she hadn’t voted the day before. If she voted for **tirial** at that point she was probably afraid that it would point back to her today. I’m not sure why she didn’t vote for me. I think if she thought there would be an extension she would come off as town for causing it since keeping the clock going as long as possible is usually a pro-town move, and that’s exactly what is happening. Since my vote was resoundingly ignored she wasn’t in any danger yesterday, especially if she gained a little trust for causing the extension. [QUOTE=DiggitCamara] And I can see an actual advantage to voting for **tirial** (for scum, that is). Imagine, for instance, that she had been in my place. Imagine that during this day **tirial** wasn’t lynched but that the other citizen was. Which would leave the Doctor and scum going into the night… Guess who would be self-protecting that night? [/quote] Good point. I hadn’t considered the situation if only her and **tirial** were left at the end of today. If I recall the rules correctly it would have gone to a coin-flip on the tie. If she thought the extension was a given she was probably counting on the **tirial** lynch going through in the end anyway. [QUOTE=DiggitCamara] Next positive point (for **Cookies** , that is). Right off the bat she said I was a mason. Since yesterday I have been pointing out (as have you) that a recruited mason was out of the question because **Millit** had been killed (that point has been reinforced via **Hal** ’s death). So: why would the Recruit right off the bat announce that I was the mason? Wouldn’t the Recruit have been better off if the mason remained unidentified? And, if for some obscure reason the Mason was announced by the Recruit, why would she then vote against him? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies] I’m vanilla town. I’ve inadvertantly outed myself as such on so many occasions, I can’t even count them, so I’d be highly surpised if that is a surprise to anyone. So surprised that I didn’t even think to role-claim in my last post. Of course some (if not all) of those sloppy moments (including not role-claiming earlier today) are likely to be seen as (or twisted into) crafty scum manipulations, but sadly they were just vanilla sloppiness. [/quote] She thought it was obvious she wasn’t a mason so there was no value in trying to keep your status a secret. I was pretty sure you were a mason (if there were three) due to **Hal’s** defense of you, but I wasn’t sure. I wouldn’t have believed her if you both claimed mason, though, and maybe she figured that. If she was about to vote for you anyway, she might have thought that our common non-mason status, and previous shared suspicion of you, would unite us against you and lead to victory. It’s hard to figure out what she was thinking. Maybe she was hoping that I would jump right on so she could unvote you and say it was a trap and get you to vote for me. Who knows. All I know is that there must be a scum reason to her strange actions these last few days. There’s no way for me to prove it short of us losing the game and my town status be revealed, but I know she’s scum (I hope, or there’s no chance at winning) because I’m not. This is the first time since I was wrong about **Projammer** that I’m pretty sure I’m right. Too bad it took a 50/50 where it’s easy to rule one of the options out for me to be sure. It’s getting late and I worry that if I don’t post this now you might miss it before the countdown expires, so I’ll post this much now. If your mind is made up I guess you can leave your vote on me and that’s it. Please read her posts again and look at how strange her actions have been. She was recruited. **Gadarene** , I’m assuming the countdown is 12 hours because that’s what it’s been in the past I think. Can you clarify this when you get a chance? ---
**Author:** ![nesta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a4c791/32.png) [@nesta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nesta)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/2438 "2007-06-21T03:37:36Z")
[QUOTE=DiggitCamara] but your vote only came after she indicated she had 75% (or something to that effect) confidence in his scumminess. And then with a show of extreme reluctance. The thing reads (to me) like a last ditch effort to lower someone’s confidence in his vote (Hal, perhaps). And she didn’t vote for him (in time) because she went to see some movie… like she said, I’m guessing she’s telling the truth when Real Life intruded into the game. Your “thinking out loud” reminds me too much of **Lemur866** ’s tepid attempt to save **fluiddruid** as well. And I don’t see any attempt on ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies to defend **Blaster Master** during that day. [/QUOTE] I know you think you see a scum tell in my indecisiveness about **Blaster Master** , but I know they aren’t scum tells because I’m not scum. How can I explain away your feeling that my posts were like **Lemur866’s**? I was asking for **Hal’s** response to see if he was recruited, since he seemed an obvious recruit to me at the time. I was hoping he had a solid reason for trusting you so that I could rule him out a little and feel good about voting for **Blaster Master**. I don’t even remember **Cookies** saying she had a 75% confidence in **Blaster Master’s** scumminess. I was reluctant to just vote for you and let **Blaster Master** get lynched without my vote because I had to leave and was worried they might pile on at the last minute and get you lynched if you really weren’t scum. I guess that’s it. If you leave your vote on me it’s over and we lose. Really, I blame myself for not playing a very good game this time around, so don’t feel bad. If I had just found some scum during the game the mafia would have killed me and someone better at this could have been one of the final three, or gotten the recruit lynched yesterday, and we would have had a chance. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/2439 "2007-06-21T04:34:35Z")
[Quote=nesta] I don’t even remember Cookies saying she had a 75% confidence in Blaster Master’s scumminess. [/quote] [Post #2280](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8662057&postcount=2280) [QUOTE=nesta] If you leave your vote on me it’s over and we lose. [/quote] Now where have I heard an “honest scum” statement like this before? Somewhere near the bottom of page 46, methinks… > [@nesta](#): > > Really, I blame myself for not playing a very good game this time around, so don’t feel bad. If I had just found some scum during the game the mafia would have killed me and someone better at this could have been one of the final three, or gotten the recruit lynched yesterday, and we would have had a chance. Sorry. Now this particular use of “we” has a different ring to it, but even so, a significant chunk of the paragraph has definite (though a bit lacking in the self-esteem department) double-meaning potential. Don’t be so hard on yourself. You didn’t ask to be recruited. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/2440 "2007-06-21T04:45:07Z")
I forgot one. If you’ll indulge me in my own low self-esteem moment… > [@nesta](#): > > All I know is that there must be a scum reason to her strange actions these last few days. I think the (town) reason your looking for is consistently inconsistent cluelessness. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527.md?page=121) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527.md?page=123)