# Mafia The Game III: Kinder and Gentler **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 17, 2007, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527 "2007-04-17T21:34:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/281 "2007-04-20T13:13:25Z")
Vote count coming up. ---
**Author:** ![CaerieD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@CaerieD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaerieD)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/282 "2007-04-20T13:15:07Z")
[QUOTE=Omi no Kami] Hmm. I’m almost sure the scum were behind the mini-wagon that almost rolled over NAF. The problem is nailing down exactly who was being honestly suspicious, and who wanted to kill the poor chap. I’m waffling between **Kyrie Eleison** and **Fluiddruid**. I really, really want fluiddruid to be town, because he seems to be pretty observant and he’s obviously an experienced player, but I don’t trust all of his probing. Offering your takes on strategy is valid, and asking people to back up what they’re saying is equally valid, but despite his obvious knowledge of the game it seems like he’s insisting on questioning every little thing. My guess is that he’s feeling for power roles based on how people defend themselves. Since nobody else bothers me quite as much yet, Vote **fluiddruid** [/QUOTE] [Color removed] The questioning is actually what made me less inclined to think that **fluiddruid** was scum. It was the townies in the last game who were the most suspicious of others and the ones who essentially led to all of the role claims. While it’s easy enough for scum to emulate the tactics of town, those tactics didn’t go very _well_ for the town. Any scum who was smart enough to notice that the townies did that and try to copy it would also know that it wasn’t a very good tactic and resulted in lynchings and role claims. And then we’re back at the “wine in front of me” situation there, aren’t we? Argh. We’ve still got plenty of time. No one is jumping out at me as a very good prospect just yet, and my suspicions of **fluiddruid** are fading. All of you are potential scum as far as I’m concerned, but I don’t think offing the experienced players right off the bat is going to help us. There’s a good chance some of them (most of them?) are going to be Vanilla Citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/283 "2007-04-20T13:43:32Z")
Vote Count ( **dnooman** had it correct in post #266; this here’s the updated count) 2 – **ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies** (DiggitCamara, nesta) 2 – **fluiddruid** (NAF1138, Omi No Kami) 1 – **SnakesCatLady** (Blaster Master) 1 – **NAF1138** (Hal Briston) 1 – **DiggitCamara** (percypercy) 1 – **Lemur866** (Projammer) 1 – **Millit the Frail** (Idle Thoughts) 1 – **nesta** (ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies) ---
**Author:** ![Omi\_no\_Kami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Omi\_no\_Kami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omi_no_Kami)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/284 "2007-04-20T14:08:15Z")
I’m also in favor of a slow game, but at this point I honestly don’t have any good leads. Every townie who isn’t actively eliciting responses, however, might as well be helping the scum, so when the vote count is so low that it doesn’t matter, I’d rather make an incorrect accusation and learn from the target’s defense than stay quiet. ---
**Author:** ![Achren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/898d66/32.png) [@Achren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achren)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/285 "2007-04-20T14:30:11Z")
Quick post to say sorry about that, had a real-life situation that popped up yesterday. Time now to read the thread and see what I see. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/286 "2007-04-20T14:59:04Z")
[QUOTE=Millit the Frail] Random votes have their place, but I hate to see people hiding behind a website telling them to do something. It just smacks of not taking responsibility for their votes. I don’t like that. It seems like something a Mafia would do so that later in the game he/she could go back and say “Hey, I didn’t really vote to kill that townie, a randomizer website told me to!” [/QUOTE] And saying “he’s a lemur” or “his name says ‘darkside’” in it are better reasons to vote/FOS someone? All the votes now are random, or might as well be, and thus it doesn’t matter whether you use some faux reasoning, or a truly random vote. The point of the votes isn’t to try to lynch someone now, it’s to put pressure on people and see how they react. If someone gets lucky and random votes scum, then we might see some scum tells; if someone votes townie, we might see some townie tells. The votes and FOSs are more than a way to get someone lynched, they’re a way to obtain information. That said, I will unvote **SnakesCatLady** , because I think I got I’m going to get out of it for now. I will re-evaluate and decide if I have enough information for a non-random vote before I re-vote. > [@](#): > > And after all, in the Werewolf game, the first person to use [random.org](http://random.org) to cast a vote ended up being scum. > > Most of us are voting essentially randomly, and that’s necessary at this point. But even though your vote is random, coming out and saying that you let an independent entity do it for you is pretty darn suspicious to me right now. Wait, are you insinuating that admitting they’re random as opposed to giving a made up reason is somehow more of a scum tell? Would you feel better if someone reached in their D&D kit and rolled a 1d20? What exactly is a suspicious form of a random vote and what isn’t? There’s already been discussion about how important information is at this stage of the game, and casting suspicion on people for what seems to be SOP looks like you’re trying to snub information. I’m not prepared to revote quite yet, but I WILL point a strong **FOS on Millit the Frail** with a possible vote to follow depending on your response. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/287 "2007-04-20T15:15:11Z")
[QUOTE=CaerieD] [Color removed] The questioning is actually what made me less inclined to think that **fluiddruid** was scum. It was the townies in the last game who were the most suspicious of others and the ones who essentially led to all of the role claims. While it’s easy enough for scum to emulate the tactics of town, those tactics didn’t go very _well_ for the town. Any scum who was smart enough to notice that the townies did that and try to copy it would also know that it wasn’t a very good tactic and resulted in lynchings and role claims. And then we’re back at the “wine in front of me” situation there, aren’t we? Argh. We’ve still got plenty of time. No one is jumping out at me as a very good prospect just yet, and my suspicions of **fluiddruid** are fading. All of you are potential scum as far as I’m concerned, but I don’t think offing the experienced players right off the bat is going to help us. There’s a good chance some of them (most of them?) are going to be Vanilla Citizens. [/QUOTE] You make a fairly good point here. I have been thinking about my vote for **fluiddruid** all night, and I think that I should unvote for now at least. As to the random voting, there is enough info out there that I \*don’t \* think all the votes have to be random anymore. A nice mini bandwagon formed against me, why aren’t we looking at the people involved in that? (Both people voting and people commenting.) Lots of discussion of strategy has taken place, why aren’t we taking a closer look at what \*\*dnooman \*\*, \*\*cookies \*\*, et all have had to say on that subject? We are past the point of needing to vote at random because there is legitimate information that we can examine now. So at this point anyone who is still making a totally random vote is going on my scum list. I have to do a bit of actuall work, but I am going to try to put together a mini analysis of the first IRL day of posting for later today. ---
**Author:** ![Millit\_the\_Frail](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@Millit\_the\_Frail](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Millit_the_Frail)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/288 "2007-04-20T15:29:52Z")
[QUOTE=Blaster Master] And saying “he’s a lemur” or “his name says ‘darkside’” in it are better reasons to vote/FOS someone? All the votes now are random, or might as well be, and thus it doesn’t matter whether you use some faux reasoning, or a truly random vote. The point of the votes isn’t to try to lynch someone now, it’s to put pressure on people and see how they react. If someone gets lucky and random votes scum, then we might see some scum tells; if someone votes townie, we might see some townie tells. The votes and FOSs are more than a way to get someone lynched, they’re a way to obtain information. _snip_ Wait, are you insinuating that admitting they’re random as opposed to giving a made up reason is somehow more of a scum tell? Would you feel better if someone reached in their D&D kit and rolled a 1d20? What exactly is a suspicious form of a random vote and what isn’t? There’s already been discussion about how important information is at this stage of the game, and casting suspicion on people for what seems to be SOP looks like you’re trying to snub information. I’m not prepared to revote quite yet, but I WILL point a strong **FOS on Millit the Frail** with a possible vote to follow depending on your response. [/QUOTE] I guess I see where you’re coming from, we just have different strategies, that’s all. I feel very strongly about people claiming that they used a random number generator of some sort (D20s included) because it looks like they’re trying to establish plausible deniability. That looks scummy to me. Maybe you disagree. But you agree with me that watching people vote is a way to obtain information, right? I just want to hear some sort of reasoning, especially now that votes have started flying around. **Fluiddruid** said it better than I can say it–faulty reasoning helps us more than no reasoning at all. But if you must, keep poking me with a stick, but you’ll always get the same response: “Ow, quit it!” 😛 ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/289 "2007-04-20T15:38:03Z")
[QUOTE=Omi no Kami] H I’m waffling between **Kyrie Eleison** and **Fluiddruid**. I really, really want fluiddruid to be town, because he seems to be pretty observant and he’s obviously an experienced player, but I don’t trust all of his probing. Offering your takes on strategy is valid, and asking people to back up what they’re saying is equally valid, but despite his obvious knowledge of the game it seems like he’s insisting on questioning every little thing. [/QUOTE] **Kyrie Eleison** has been pinging my scumdar a little bit too, but that’s just a gut feeling. I’m going to go through some of the less active posters’ posts today before I really start pointing more FOS, as a few of us (including myself) have been putting out some feelers. Just for the record, though: - I’m female 🙂 and - I’m not an experienced player, in that I’ve never played Mafia before, but I did keep up with the previous games (particularly game 2, which I read avidly). I’m also a pretty competitive person and I have played many other strategy games, so I’m pretty comfortable being assertive. As others have mentioned, we _need_ to get people out in the open regarding their strategies now. This will make the lynching and night kills tell us a lot more and the more we pin people down now, the easier it will be to see vote patterns later. ---
**Author:** ![nesta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a4c791/32.png) [@nesta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nesta)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/290 "2007-04-20T15:40:22Z")
[QUOTE=ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies] Random selection has a place in the first day. We are still in the first day. I FOS’s, not voted, randomly on the first day. Statistically speaking (ymmv) a random selection on the first day is a valid technique to try and hit scum and miss town. [/QUOTE] I don’t like this defense. A random vote is more likely to hit a townie than scum. [QUOTE=ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies] Take an analogy from the world in which I marinate in my profession. Just because there are botnet-infecting, phishing, social engineering, fraudulent criminals opperating online, you still see more and more folks migrating legitimately online for such matters. [/QUOTE] I don’t understand your analogy. It does sound like we have similar professions, though. [QUOTE=Blaster Master] And saying “he’s a lemur” or “his name says ‘darkside’” in it are better reasons to vote/FOS someone? All the votes now are random, or might as well be, and thus it doesn’t matter whether you use some faux reasoning, or a truly random vote. The point of the votes isn’t to try to lynch someone now, it’s to put pressure on people and see how they react. If someone gets lucky and random votes scum, then we might see some scum tells; if someone votes townie, we might see some townie tells. The votes and FOSs are more than a way to get someone lynched, they’re a way to obtain information. [/QUOTE] I like this defense of random voting better. I still disagree, but I can see where townies would legitimately throw out random votes, especially at the very beginning hoping to hit scum. I still think there should be a reason for it, even if it’s as simple as them not posting anything of substance yet. I originally voted for **ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies** because I dislike completely random votes, but also because it just seemed odd to _FOS_ someone completely randomly. To me a formal FOS means you really do have suspicion about someone, and that seems to contradict a completely random FOS. I suppose a general dislike of early voting could explain this, though. I can’t say his/her posts since my vote have made me less suspicious, but I had very little real suspicion of him/her in the first place. I’m going to leave an **FOS ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies** , but unvote **ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies** for now. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/291 "2007-04-20T15:41:26Z")
[QUOTE=Millit the Frail] But if you must, keep poking me with a stick, but you’ll always get the same response: “Ow, quit it!” 😛 [/QUOTE] Hey, you kids! Don’t make me turn this car around! ---
**Author:** ![Millit\_the\_Frail](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@Millit\_the\_Frail](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Millit_the_Frail)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/292 "2007-04-20T16:03:16Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] Hey, you kids! Don’t make me turn this car around! [/QUOTE] I’m going to have to curb it for a while, actually! I’ll be posting less frequently for about a week because I’m in a wedding. Just in case you wonder why my posting level drops off. I’m not usually a prolific poster, but this has me on the edge of my seat. So until I get back (that is, if the Mafia hasn’t decided that my good looks and razor wit make me too much of a liability), I’ll be posting maybe once a day. And I’ll be keeping up with all of the votes and I’ll make sure to get a vote in before the deadline. I guess I should mention that I’m a little less suspicious of **Blaster Master** now. But something **Cookies** is still rubbing me the wrong way…I don’t follow that analogy in her last post. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/293 "2007-04-20T16:28:27Z")
Did someone ask about post counts? Here’s the stats as of 2 minutes ago: Who Posted? Total Posts: 292 User Name Posts Gadarene 42 NAF1138 30 ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies 18 Lemur866 17 Omi no Kami 17 fluiddruid 15 nesta 14 Idle Thoughts 14 dnooman 12 Millit the Frail 11 Projammer 11 SnakesCatLady 10 glee 10 Blaster Master 9 Hal Briston 9 DiggitCamara 9 Achren 5 Kyrie Eleison 5 CaerieD 4 Malacandra 4 percypercy 4 Lightnin’ 3 MadTheSwine 3 threnodyangelfire 2 Queuing 2 ArizonaTeach 2 tirial 2 Rachm Qoch 2 Kat 1 Rysto 1 percussion 1 Nava 1 zuma 1 Suburban Plankton 1 Show Thread & Close Window ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/294 "2007-04-20T16:29:37Z")
I’m suspicious of **Show Thread & Close Window**. Bastard hasn’t posted at all. …Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/295 "2007-04-20T16:53:04Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] Did someone ask about post counts? Here’s the stats as of 2 minutes ago: Who Posted? (…) [/QUOTE] Two questions: is there a way to see how many times someone posted after the game really began? (To eliminate “fluff” posts) How do you view thread post counts? And a third one: What happens when the day ends and two or more people have the same lynch counts? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/296 "2007-04-20T16:54:36Z")
> [@](#): > > What happens when the day ends and two or more people have the same lynch counts? That’s a damn good question. Does anyone with more experience than me know how this usually plays out? ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/297 "2007-04-20T17:03:15Z")
[QUOTE=Gadarene] That’s a damn good question. Does anyone with more experience than me know how this usually plays out? [/QUOTE] Random choice between the tied players is what usually happens ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/298 "2007-04-20T17:06:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Random choice between the tied players is what usually happens. Sounds good to me. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/299 "2007-04-20T17:06:58Z")
[QUOTE=Omi no Kami] Hmm. I’m almost sure the scum were behind the mini-wagon that almost rolled over NAF. The problem is nailing down exactly who was being honestly suspicious, and who wanted to kill the poor chap. I’m waffling between **Kyrie Eleison** and **Fluiddruid**. I really, really want fluiddruid to be town, because he seems to be pretty observant and he’s obviously an experienced player, but I don’t trust all of his probing. Offering your takes on strategy is valid, and asking people to back up what they’re saying is equally valid, but despite his obvious knowledge of the game it seems like he’s insisting on questioning every little thing. **My guess is that he’s feeling for power roles based on how people defend themselves.** Since nobody else bothers me quite as much yet, Vote **fluiddruid** [/QUOTE] color removed, bolding mine I don’t follow the logic of this post at all. Shouldn’t we be trying to feel out who the other players are? How else do we find mafia? **FOS Omi no Kami** ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/300 "2007-04-20T17:25:12Z")
[QUOTE=DiggitCamara] Two questions: is there a way to see how many times someone posted after the game really began? (To eliminate “fluff” posts) How do you view thread post counts? [/QUOTE] To view thread post counts, just go to the MPSIMS page and look for this thread. There is a column labeled “Replies”. Click the replies and a table of the thread post counts will appear. I can’t see any way to get “real” post counts other than manually…take the table, count up fluff posts for each poster and subtract. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527.md?page=16)