# Mafia The Game III: Kinder and Gentler **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 17, 2007, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527 "2007-04-17T21:34:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/301 "2007-04-20T17:27:47Z")
**Top of the Page Vote Count** 1 – **ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies** (DiggitCamara) 1 – **fluiddruid** (Omi No Kami) 1 – **NAF1138** (Hal Briston) 1 – **DiggitCamara** (percypercy) 1 – **Lemur866** (Projammer) 1 – **Millit the Frail** (Idle Thoughts) 1 – **nesta** (ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies) ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/302 "2007-04-20T17:48:42Z")
In the WereWolf II thread, the first vote was cast by Pleonast. Immediately afterwards, FlyingCowofDoom [questioned](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8405317&postcount=240) that move… turns out FlyingCowofDoom was **mafia** Does history repeat itself? (FOS-\>NAF1138) ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/303 "2007-04-20T17:50:34Z")
Okay, it looks like we need a sub for **Achren**. Can I get a PM from **glee** , **Malacandra** , **tirial** , **threnodyangelfire** , or **MadTheSwine** taking his place? ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/304 "2007-04-20T18:02:16Z")
The point I was trying to make with the analogy was that even though scum can hide behind a vote that they allegedly determined at random, that doesn’t mean a truly random vote/FOS is a bad idea for someone who uses it on the first day, when information is lacking for a more informed decision. Just because there are people online who are quite skilled at pretending to be a bank or eBay, doesn’t mean one can’t legitimately benefit/profit using the internet as a medium for transactions involving money, you just have to be vigilant. My Mom was visiting last night, so my posting was a bit distracted… Quite possibly to my detriment, I’ve now posted copiously my rationalizations for some approaches that apply to a very specific (and shortlived) portion of the game. There have been a few interesting interpretations of those approaches. In no particular order… > [@nesta](#): > > A random FOS seems even more pointless than a random vote. > … > Please tell me (and us) how my reasoning is opposite from yours? I think you’re talking about my disliking completely random votes. Are you saying that you advocate completely random votes? > … > I don’t like this defense. A random vote is more likely to hit a townie than scum. > … > [@NAF1138](#): > > I agree with this. Too much voting too fast can have BAD results (look at game 2’s first day), but the FOS will do about the same as a vote for now. We can start voting once some real conversations happen, but nothing has really been said yet. > … > Totally random voting is bad too though, because it will just muddy up the waters later. I am watching the results of this type of thoughless random action right now in the other game. When you vote you have to be able to back it up with something, because you WILL get called on it eventually. And I think that saying, “well it was just a wild guess” isn’t a great defense. > [@Millit the Frail](#): > > Come on, people. [Random.org](http://Random.org)? That’s like saying “Hey, I don’t want to be responsible for my vote!” What are you trying to do, leave no trail? The only reason anyone doesn’t want to leave a trail (even if it’s a crappy trail) is that they’re Mafia. A townie has nothing to hide. > … > Since I just FOS’ed you (Grrrr…you all are making me verb-ize nouns!) for the same reason, I just want to explain: Own it! Own up to your vote, if you’ve got nothing to be afraid of. If you die, then at least we can see who you did or didn’t think was suspicious at any given time. It could come in really handy if you’re a Mason or the Detective. > … > Random votes have their place, but I hate to see people hiding behind a website telling them to do something. It just smacks of not taking responsibility for their votes. I don’t like that. It seems like something a Mafia would do so that later in the game he/she could go back and say “Hey, I didn’t really vote to kill that townie, a randomizer website told me to!” > > And after all, in the Werewolf game, the first person to use [random.org](http://random.org) to cast a vote ended up being scum. > [@Projammer](#): > > I’m kind of in the “the first vote is pretty much random” boat. Everyone is doing their best to give off I’m-a-townie vibes, so unless someone does slip up badly, there’s no real hard data to go on. Whomever get’s the vote this time is pretty much guaranteed to try some sort of role claim. About the only thing they’re NOT going to claim is scum. > [@fluiddruid](#): > > In my opinion, saying “I used [random.org](http://random.org)!” for voting is pretty useless and at, at worst, perhaps a scum tell. On Day 1, faulty reasoning is likely, but NO reasoning is worse as it really gives us nothing to go on. So here is my take on the above quotes… While they have all had some sort of perspective that differs from my “First Day” approach, only one of them voices that difference of perspective without spinning what I said into something that could be used as fuel against me, either today or later in the game. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/305 "2007-04-20T18:09:03Z")
:smack: Must…resist…the desire…to use…words…like…“all”… So as quoted above, Projammer agrees with me more than disagrees. So I should have said: “While _most_ of them had some sort of perspective that differs from my “First Day” approach…” ---
**Author:** ![Rachm\_Qoch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a8b319/32.png) [@Rachm\_Qoch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachm_Qoch)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/306 "2007-04-20T18:22:45Z")
[QUOTE=DiggitCamara] In the WereWolf II thread, the first vote was cast by Pleonast. Immediately afterwards, FlyingCowofDoom [questioned](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8405317&postcount=240) that move… turns out FlyingCowofDoom was **mafia** Does history repeat itself? (FOS-\>NAF1138) [/QUOTE] To be fair, **NAF1138** never even FOS’d you over that. Just a little gentle prodding, nothing out of the norm. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/307 "2007-04-20T18:23:27Z")
[QUOTE=Millit the Frail] \ I noticed that I have a vote, and I think it’s based on a misunderstanding, if not a deliberate misrepresentation of my first daytime post. I was NOT advocating a no-lynch day, I was just saying that it had seemed obvious at first glance, but then it had lost its appeal. My changing my mind happened before the day even technically started. I was only trying to express how humorously frustrating it feels to post something, trying to second guess (and third and fourth guess) everything based on how someone _might_ think it’s a scum tell! [/QUOTE] I dunno, from what I posted as reason for voting for you it seems reasonable enough to me and makes sense. It’s not completely out of the blue or even hostile and if nobody casts a vote, the game goes nowhere. I casted my vote for you (and even said I may change it later, which, again, I may still do) but your defense at my voting and implying I may be scum just makes me all the more suspicious. If someone voted for me, I wouldn’t automatically assume they were scum. I’d say "Okay, they COULD be scum, but then again they also could be a normal citizen just under false pretenses or suspicion. I wouldn’t be so fast to say “Hmm, you voted for me, that’s a VERY shady thing to do.” The voting right now seems random as nobody is in the lead currently with any votes. So unless three or four people start voting for you and piling up on you, I wouldn’t really start assuming every one of them is a scummy player. Again, my vote isn’t set in stone and I’m constantly reading this topic. I’ll continue to do so all of today (since I just got on and tend to be online until night), and if I see anything that trips my buzzer (I am suspicious of others too), I’ll vote accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/308 "2007-04-20T18:25:12Z")
As for Projammer’s comment about role claims this early, ONLY people with real roles should claim to get out of lynchings. It’s counterproductive to the team for townsfolk to claim non-vanilla status. Anyone lying about their role should be treated as scum. If you’re a vanilla townie going to the noose, argue as hard as you can against your lynching, but do NOT lie. Because once you’re dead, and your town status is revealed, then the rest of us can comb over your earlier posts knowing that you were innocent all along. If you’ve lied about all sorts of stuff, that means you might as well be a scum, we have no new information. So. Anyone who is proven to lie should get a date with the hangman. Maybe they’re not an automatic lynch if there are more important fish to fry, but you’re going down with all deliberate speed. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/309 "2007-04-20T18:33:43Z")
[QUOTE=DiggitCamara] In the WereWolf II thread, the first vote was cast by Pleonast. Immediately afterwards, FlyingCowofDoom [questioned](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8405317&postcount=240) that move… turns out FlyingCowofDoom was **mafia** Does history repeat itself? (FOS-\>NAF1138) [/QUOTE] This is interesting. I wonder if past games/experience doesn’t play a huge part in how people could behave? I’ve always noticed this as well. That the ones, when voted for, who say “Why are you voting for me? That’s random. Don’t vote randomly. Random is bad” always are or turn out to be scum. At least, that’s what I’ve noticed in other games before. It’s like a number one defense. The first round IS always random (well, if you’re a townie/citizen that is, and even if you’re not, you’ll probably be trying to claim and acting like it’s random anyway), so that just leaves us with everyone looking suspicious in some ways.. That’s just the way of the game. There’s not really anything anyone can do unless they over-analyze every post made and even then they could be creating ghosts in their own minds where there aren’t any. Best is to just vote based on little things you’ve noticed, find out who was what when day is over, and gain further insight based on that info. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/310 "2007-04-20T18:38:04Z")
[QUOTE=DiggitCamara] In the WereWolf II thread, the first vote was cast by Pleonast. Immediately afterwards, FlyingCowofDoom [questioned](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8405317&postcount=240) that move… turns out FlyingCowofDoom was **mafia** Does history repeat itself? (FOS-\>NAF1138) [/QUOTE] Ok now that is just silly. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/311 "2007-04-20T18:43:58Z")
[QUOTE=Idle Thoughts] **The first round IS always random** (well, if you’re a townie/citizen that is, and even if you’re not, you’ll probably be trying to claim and acting like it’s random anyway), so that just leaves us with everyone looking suspicious in some ways.. That’s just the way of the game. There’s not really anything anyone can do unless they over-analyze every post made and even then they could be creating ghosts in their own minds where there aren’t any. **Best is to just vote based on little things you’ve noticed, find out who was what when day is over, and gain further insight based on that info**. [/QUOTE] Bolding mine Which is it? Is it random, or are votes deliberate? Do you not see the difference? Random _is_ bad. Voting based on little things that may or may not be correct is good. I don’t see what the problem is here. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/312 "2007-04-20T18:47:31Z")
I really need to think out my enitire post in advance rather than tripple posting. Oh well. Anyone else wondering where \*\*percypercy \*\* & \*\*Lightnin’ \*\* have gone off to? ---
**Author:** ![dnooman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/313 "2007-04-20T18:53:38Z")
[QUOTE=NAF1138] Anyone else wondering where \*\*percypercy \*\* & \*\*Lightnin’ \*\* have gone off to? [/QUOTE] Yes, especially because they were the two to jump on **DiggitCamara** which is something that needs to be discussed further IMO. It’s one of several leads we can work on that might produce some results. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/314 "2007-04-20T19:00:24Z")
[QUOTE=NAF1138] Bolding mine Which is it? Is it random, or are votes deliberate? Do you not see the difference? Random _is_ bad. Voting based on little things that may or may not be correct is good. I don’t see what the problem is here. [/QUOTE] Random, which is what I said throughout that whole post. Since it’s so random, the only thing one can do is find things that make sense to THEM, and thus, place their random vote (unless, of course, they know who is who and already know how the ground lies). ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/315 "2007-04-20T19:03:45Z")
[QUOTE=DiggitCamara] In the WereWolf II thread, the first vote was cast by Pleonast. Immediately afterwards, FlyingCowofDoom [questioned](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8405317&postcount=240) that move… turns out FlyingCowofDoom was **mafia** Does history repeat itself? (FOS-\>NAF1138) [/QUOTE] I don’t think so. In the other game, **FCOD** was playing completely differently and had a relatively low post count and a very different post style. In this game, **NAF** is among the leaders in posts among players and, while I haven’t agreed with everything she’s said, none of it pings my scum-dar. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/316 "2007-04-20T19:09:29Z")
[QUOTE=Blaster Master] I don’t think so. In the other game, **FCOD** was playing completely differently and had a relatively low post count and a very different post style. In this game, **NAF** is among the leaders in posts among players and, while I haven’t agreed with everything she’s said, none of it pings my scum-dar. [/QUOTE] UM…he. I’m a he. ---
**Author:** ![tirial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@tirial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tirial)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/317 "2007-04-20T19:10:35Z")
Hi Gadarene, I am online and have PM’d you about replacing **Achren** , if no one else has beaten me to it. ---
**Author:** ![Omi\_no\_Kami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Omi\_no\_Kami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omi_no_Kami)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/318 "2007-04-20T19:11:04Z")
[QUOTE=NAF1138] color removed, bolding mine I don’t follow the logic of this post at all. Shouldn’t we be trying to feel out who the other players are? How else do we find mafia? **FOS Omi no Kami** [/QUOTE] Of course we should, but for some reason challenging the way someone approaches basic gameplay strikes me as more likely to review a power role (because someone with extra abilities is going to play in an entirely different manner than one without) than scum at this point. Plus, fluid seemed to be coming on really, really strong. She claims that she’s an agressive player, which I’m willing to accept for now, but since nobody’s in danger of being lynched I’m going to preserve my right to be suspicious. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/319 "2007-04-20T19:14:57Z")
**tirial:** > [@](#): > > Hi Gadarene, I am online and have PM’d you about replacing Achren, if no one else has beaten me to it. Nope; you’re the first! ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/320 "2007-04-20T19:16:07Z")
Updated player list: 1. fluiddruid 2. NAF1138 3. CaerieD 4. ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies 5. Hal Briston 6. nesta 7. Projammer 8. percypercy 9. SnakesCatLady 10. Lightnin’ 11. Lemur866 12. tirial 13. Blaster Master 14. Millit the Frail 15. Rachm Qoch 16. DiggitCamara 17. dnooman 18. Kyrie Eleison 19. Omi No Kami 20. Idle Thoughts And here’s our list of reserves, to be subbed in as needed. I’ll be instituting a similar “no lurking” rule as NAF did last time, so we may need you folk. 1. glee 2. MadTheSwine 3. Malacandra 4. threnodyangelfire If anyone else wants to be put on the reserve list, let me know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527.md?page=17)