# Mafia The Game III: Kinder and Gentler **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 17, 2007, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527 "2007-04-17T21:34:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/361 "2007-04-20T21:28:36Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] But here’s the thing. Flinging accusations isn’t suspicious. Yeah, like I said before, it’s liable to get you killed. And once you’re dead, all your secrets are revealed. If **NAF** is scum, he’s being really dumb, because he’s likely to end up dead and revealed as mafia pretty soon, and that benefits the mafia not at all. But if he’s flinging crap and calling attention to himself and is town, his death can still benefit the honest citizens. Note that this doesn’t mean I think his early accusation of you is neccesarily correct, it’s very likely to be incorrect, only (5+/-N)/20 likely to be correct. Just that he himself is probably clean. [/QUOTE] Good explanation- and I think that was why I got so irritated at his nomination of me. As near as I could tell, I hadn’t done anything that I felt warranted any suspicion, especially since I retracted my first (admittedly random) vote- he seemed to be going out of his way to find something, anything, suspicious. And then he seemed self-congratulatory on his suspicion of me after I “confirmed” that suspicion by defending my actions. It just seemed really random, and I can’t see any real use in doing it. It’s also annoying in that I now feel frozen in indecision. If we defend ourselves, it’s suspicious. If we don’t defend ourselves, it’s suspicious. If we just keep quiet, we’re suspicious. If that’s the way this is played, why bother? ---
**Author:** ![percypercy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@percypercy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/percypercy)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/362 "2007-04-20T21:35:09Z")
I was at my niece’s birthday party. I just spent the last three hours helping a group of 5 year olds paint tea cups. I’m back now. I voted for **diggitcamera** because he seemed to be stressing the ‘I’m a townie’ bit a little too much, but like I said, I’m willing to be convinced I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/363 "2007-04-20T21:39:48Z")
But the “everything is suspicious” problem only applies for the first day or two. After that we’ll have a paper trail of who voted for who and who ended up dead and what their role was. Then we start to see who advocated for the death of the innocent, who voted for the guilty, who the mafia wanted to silence and who they let live. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/364 "2007-04-20T21:43:38Z")
[QUOTE=Lightnin’] Um, no I didn’t. Post #189 was a post by **Kyrie Eleison** voting for **Naf**. My first post was #193, in reaction to **DiggitCamara** ’s vote to lynch **ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies**. and I retracted it in #232 after reading the reasons for why the first day’s so darn random. Of course, between my initial vote and my retraction thereof, **NAF1138** used my post as a reason to FOS me. It seems to me that if anyone’s been flinging around the accusations, it’s **Naf** - check his history. That’s why I voted for **Naf** in #346, and I stand by that vote. [/QUOTE] I wouldn’t say I have been \*flinging \* accusations. I have actually accused, I think, only 2 people. I have stated publiclly that I am suspicious of a couple more, but out of 20 people, that is hardly a lot. Words have meaning, be careful what you say. > [@](#): > > Good explanation- and I think that was why I got so irritated at his nomination of me. As near as I could tell, I hadn’t done anything that I felt warranted any suspicion, especially since I retracted my first (admittedly random) vote- he seemed to be going out of his way to find something, anything, suspicious. And then he seemed self-congratulatory on his suspicion of me after I “confirmed” that suspicion by defending my actions. Your right, I was being a dick. You voted in my favor and I voted against you. I get why you would be angry/frustrated. But that doesn’t mean you aren’t scum. > [@](#): > > It’s also annoying in that I now feel frozen in indecision. If we defend ourselves, it’s suspicious. If we don’t defend ourselves, it’s suspicious. If we just keep quiet, we’re suspicious. If that’s the way this is played, why bother? Just calm down and tell the truth. (I am not saying you haven’t been, but you sure haven’t been calm about it) If you are town and stick with the truth, the worst that can happen is that you die, and you become a usufull dead guy. The only people that should be afraid of getting killed at this stage are mob members. Play the game like you are going to get killed tonight. You will be fine. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/365 "2007-04-20T21:44:58Z")
huh? is my last post blank? ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/366 "2007-04-20T21:47:49Z")
[QUOTE=Lightnin’] Um, no I didn’t. Post #189 was a post by **Kyrie Eleison** voting for **Naf**. My first post was #193, in reaction to **DiggitCamara** ’s vote to lynch **ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies**. and I retracted it in #232 after reading the reasons for why the first day’s so darn random. Of course, between my initial vote and my retraction thereof, **NAF1138** used my post as a reason to FOS me. It seems to me that if anyone’s been flinging around the accusations, it’s **Naf** - check his history. That’s why I voted for **Naf** in #346, and I stand by that vote.[/QUOUTE] I wouldn’t say I have been \*flinging \* accusations. I have actually accused, I think, only 2 people. I have stated publicly that I am suspicious of a couple more, but out of 20 people, that is hardly a lot. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/367 "2007-04-20T21:48:57Z")
[QUOTE=Lightnin’] Good explanation- and I think that was why I got so irritated at his nomination of me. As near as I could tell, I hadn’t done anything that I felt warranted any suspicion, especially since I retracted my first (admittedly random) vote- he seemed to be going out of his way to find something, anything, suspicious. And then he seemed self-congratulatory on his suspicion of me after I “confirmed” that suspicion by defending my actions. [/QUOTE] Your right, I was being a dick. You voted in my favor and I voted against you. I get why you would be angry/frustrated. But that doesn’t mean you aren’t scum. > [@](#): > > It’s also annoying in that I now feel frozen in indecision. If we defend ourselves, it’s suspicious. If we don’t defend ourselves, it’s suspicious. If we just keep quiet, we’re suspicious. If that’s the way this is played, why bother? Just calm down and tell the truth. (I am not saying you haven’t been, but you sure haven’t been calm about it) If you are town and stick with the truth, the worst that can happen is that you die, and you become a useful dead guy. The only people that should be afraid of getting killed at this stage are mob members. Play the game like you are going to get killed tonight. You will be fine. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/368 "2007-04-20T21:49:07Z")
**Mod Hat On** [QUOTE=NAF1138] huh? is my last post blank? [/QUOTE] There was a “QUOUTE” tag in there that caused the whole thing to bug out. In the interest of fairness, could you please confirm that your content was not changed? **Mod Hat Off** ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/369 "2007-04-20T21:50:16Z")
Thanks **fluiddruid** nice to have a mod in the game. What was that? ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/370 "2007-04-20T21:55:44Z")
I’ve been browsing through the thread to see if I can find patterns that conform to my initial ideas. One thing I’ve concluded is that I have to un-FOS NAF1138. His participates often and reasonably (at least in my mind). So, my “silly post” has been reconsidered. Second: until he(she) was voted in, **Lightnin’** had scance participation. Since then, though there have been a few more posts, **Lightnin’** has mainly defended him/herself. So I’ll go right ahead and **FOS LIGHTNIN’** And, finally, \*\*percypercy \*\* has been almost completely absent from this thread, and for that reason alone I’ll unvote ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies and vote **percypercy** ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/371 "2007-04-20T21:56:07Z")
[QUOTE=NAF1138] Your right, I was being a dick. You voted in my favor and I voted against you. I get why you would be angry/frustrated. But that doesn’t mean you aren’t scum. [/QUOTE] Well now I’m really confused. I never voted for you, or even pointed the finger at you, until you accused me. I have only voted or pointed the finger at **Diggit**. Right? If I’m wrong, I blame my blood sugar and/or Rush Limbaugh. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/372 "2007-04-20T22:11:05Z")
[QUOTE=Lightnin’] Well now I’m really confused. I never voted for you, or even pointed the finger at you, until you accused me. I have only voted or pointed the finger at **Diggit**. Right? If I’m wrong, I blame my blood sugar and/or Rush Limbaugh. [/QUOTE] Sorry I was being unclear. I meant you sided with me (against Diggit, which may have had nothing to do with my involvment, but we were on the same side of that argument more or less) and then I sided against you (first FOSing you then voting for you) Then I was smug, I admit it. Bad trait of mine, I will try harder to keep it in check. ---
**Author:** ![Kyrie\_Eleison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kyrie_eleison/32/7682_2.png) [@Kyrie\_Eleison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyrie_Eleison)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/373 "2007-04-20T22:28:46Z")
[QUOTE=fluiddruid] Second on my list was **Kyrie Eleison**. He too voted for **NAF** and there is something about [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8489010&postcount=331) that really rings wrong for me. I truly don’t see why he’s trying to bring up Mason strategy here - is he trying to lay the groundwork for a future role claim? **Omi no Kami** said he suspected **Kyrie** prior to that, but didn’t give a reason - **Omi** , if you have more, please share. [/QUOTE] Yes, I voted for **NAF**. I was the first to do so, and I didn’t try to persuade anyone or make any further case against **NAF** after the message containing and explaining my vote. Many people have cast first votes against others. As has been discussed, that’s pretty much how the first day works. Would those votes also retroactively become scummy if others were to add their weight to them? IIRC, he garnered three whole votes, yours among them, before I unvoted – again, the first to do so – and the generously-named “mini-wagon” started to unwind. I’d love to know exactly how this is suspicious behavior – it’s not like I could have known you and **Hal Briston** would also vote for him. No, not laying groundwork, sorry. I brought up the topic mainly because I couldn’t really see any reason that the masons would make an attempt at a mason-only win, but if they weren’t expected to, I wasn’t sure I understood the purpose of including the rule. However, if I was mistaken about what the masons were likely to do, it would mean that masons were possibly behaving in ways indistinguishable from scum, as both masons and the mafia would be pushing for townie kills. I sought some reassurance, and I received it (on preview, though, I see that **Projammer** now disagrees with my assessment.) I also brought it up to provoke discussion, because, in general, discussion is good for the town, and bad for its opponents. ---
**Author:** ![percypercy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@percypercy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/percypercy)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/374 "2007-04-20T22:39:26Z")
[QUOTE=DiggitCamara] I’ve been browsing through the thread to see if I can find patterns that conform to my initial ideas. One thing I’ve concluded is that I have to un-FOS NAF1138. His participates often and reasonably (at least in my mind). So, my “silly post” has been reconsidered. Second: until he(she) was voted in, **Lightnin’** had scance participation. Since then, though there have been a few more posts, **Lightnin’** has mainly defended him/herself. So I’ll go right ahead and \*\*FOS LIGHTNIN’ \*\* And, finally, \*\*percypercy \*\* has been almost completely absent from this thread, and for that reason alone I’ll unvote ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies and vote **percypercy** [/QUOTE] I can only conclude this is a retaliatory vote as I have certainly not been absent. My vote for Diggitcamera stands. ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/375 "2007-04-20T22:47:33Z")
[QUOTE=percypercy] I can only conclude this is a retaliatory vote as I have certainly not been absent. My vote for Diggitcamera stands. [/QUOTE] You can of course take it any way you like to. However, my reason to vote for it is simple: you haven’t participated enough in this thread. This may be (as you said) because real Life (RL) has interfered with your SD “duties”. However, in my mind low participation in this thread is a strong scum tell. ---
**Author:** ![Rachm\_Qoch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a8b319/32.png) [@Rachm\_Qoch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachm_Qoch)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/376 "2007-04-20T22:51:58Z")
[QUOTE=fluiddruid] **tirial** , I’m impressed by your first post. I agree with most of what you have to say, and, did mild FOS **DarkSide** for the same issue - but not seeing anything else at this point. You have some good scum candidates there though. Since it’s a slow day at work, I took the opportunity to reread the entire thread and take some notes. My thoughts: I have to agree with **NAF** on **Lightnin**. He voted for **NAF** in post 189, was FOS’d over it in post 227 by **dnooman** (who hasn’t pinged my scumdar yet) and then promptly retracted it in post 232. I’ve found his posts on this page to lack any real value - I don’t expect him to explain away his actions more, but he has done little to root out scum or to give us any real leads. Second on my list was **Kyrie Eleison**. He too voted for **NAF** and there is something about [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8489010&postcount=331) that really rings wrong for me. I truly don’t see why he’s trying to bring up Mason strategy here - is he trying to lay the groundwork for a future role claim? **Omi no Kami** said he suspected **Kyrie** prior to that, but didn’t give a reason - **Omi** , if you have more, please share. I’m not ready to vote yet but feedback on the above would be much obliged. Also on my list, but only barely, are **nesta** , who has not really posted too much about posters, just mostly about strategy, as well as **Rachm Qoch** , and **SnakeCatLady** (without looking at the player list) for simply not posting that much. I’d very much like to hear their thoughts at this point. [/QUOTE] Might I gently remind you that you also voted for **NAF**? In what a couple villagers regarded as somewhat of a “Me Too!” pile-on manner? What makes **Kyrie Eleison** ’s or **Lightnin** ’s votes for **NAF** any more nefarious than your own? Regarding **SnakeCatLady** , according to post #269 she should be back with us tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/377 "2007-04-20T23:00:21Z")
As I posted last night, real life has kept me away from the computer - but I’m back! I shouldn’t have a major absence until next Friday. Ya’ll should see the really cool soft-sculpture dragon I got at the yard sale! I’ve been doing a bit of catch up reading, and I think my shaky finger of shame wants to point at **Lightnin’**. I’m not sure I can articulate why, but something seems kinda fishy. ---
**Author:** ![dnooman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/378 "2007-04-20T23:25:53Z")
After I FOS’d **Lightnin’** and he reversed his position completely, I thought it was suspicious. I didn’t say anything because that would have brought up the “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” scenario that **Lightnin’** himself brought up later. I wanted to see how he explained himself after others noticed this behavior. He has done that, and I still think he’s acting more like someone who has been found out, rather than someone who has been wrongly accused. The reason for his initial vote was that **DiggitCamara** had “an itchy trigger finger” and could not be trusted. Now **Lightnin’** is the person who has placed the most votes. I find the vote,unvote,revote behavior to be suspect, as well as his apparent reversal on being “trigger happy”. These reasons plus the general tone of some of his posts leads me to vote **Lightnin’**. Also he seems to have forgotten that he voted for **NAF1138** > [@Lightnin'](#): > > You know something? Screw it. unvote DiggitCamara, vote NAF1138. I don’t really care how suspicious it might appear to change my vote, but I’ve been noticing how free Naf seems to be with the suspicion himself. Is it defensive? Most likely- and what’s wrong with that? It seems to me that offense is a lot more suspicious than defense, and Naf has been fairly offensive. Uh, so to speak. By my count this is the third vote for him, he is still far from being lynched. If the momentum to lynch him seems to be gaining mafia backing, I will of course unvote to hopefully slow things down. We definitely need to take our time with our discussions using the full day if necessary. However we need to try to avoid last minute speed lynchings, those can be very dangerous to the town and can be easily manipulated by Mafia in order to hammer a townie. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/379 "2007-04-20T23:27:56Z")
[QUOTE=Rachm Qoch] Might I gently remind you that you also voted for **NAF**? In what a couple villagers regarded as somewhat of a “Me Too!” pile-on manner? What makes **Kyrie Eleison** ’s or **Lightnin** ’s votes for **NAF** any more nefarious than your own? [/QUOTE] I haven’t forgotten and don’t believe anyone has; I simply have gotten a lot of flak for it (while the others’ votes had gone previously unexamined), and I believe I’ve explained my reasoning thoroughly. ---
**Author:** ![Omi\_no\_Kami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Omi\_no\_Kami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omi_no_Kami)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/380 "2007-04-20T23:39:06Z")
Hmm, you know something? I’ve been watching everyone, and while Fluid seems quite reasonable when she explained away my accusations, it looks like **Kyrie Eleison** is much less comfortable being challenged. She (or he) is quiet, and she (or he) just seems a **bit** too eager to please. unvote fluiddruid vote Kyrie Eleison [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527.md?page=20)