# Mafia The Game III: Kinder and Gentler **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 17, 2007, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527 "2007-04-17T21:34:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 51
**Author:** ![CaerieD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@CaerieD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaerieD)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2007, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1001 "2007-05-02T20:39:16Z")
[QUOTE=ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies] Rephrasing the above: “Personally, I think they’d prefer to go for townies who had been fingered by other townies…” In which case I can see where you were going, and it is a scum strategy that has been previously been discussed in this thread. If what you meant to say is exactly how you said it, then I’m as confused as **SnakeCatsLady**. [/QUOTE] Okay, I thought I’d made myself clear but obviously not by all of the confusion I’ve caused. Let me try again. Imagine we have Townies A and B. Townie A accused Townie B of being scum. Townie A is killed by the Mafia. Everyone says, “Ohnoes, Townie A was suspicious of Townie B! He must have been killed for getting too close to the truth.” The town lynches Townie B. Rather than getting rid of one townie, the Mafia managed to get rid of two. If the Mafia was doing what you’re suggesting, then it would look like this: Townie A accused Townie B of being scum. Townie B is killed by the Mafia. Everyone: 😕 Sure, they might decide that Townie A is scum and was trying to get a townie lynched, but that’s an awfully complex manipulation. I see simpler, more subtle tactics like the first scenario as being more likely. I don’t think this is a strategy that’s going to be used every night, but I do think it’s one we should be wary of, which is why even if I can see some arguments against **fluiddruid** , I’m not willing to cast my vote in that direction right now. It just seems too close to a scum ploy. I feel like I’m arguing myself in circles trying to look at this from every angle, though. I don’t know, I hope that at least made what I’d said before make a _little_ more sense. ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2007, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1002 "2007-05-02T20:54:54Z")
I understand your reasoning now. Thanks for the explanation. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2007, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1003 "2007-05-02T21:18:45Z")
[QUOTE=CaerieD] Okay, I thought I’d made myself clear but obviously not by all of the confusion I’ve caused. Let me try again. Imagine we have Townies A and B. Townie A accused Townie B of being scum. Townie A is killed by the Mafia. Everyone says, “Ohnoes, Townie A was suspicious of Townie B! He must have been killed for getting too close to the truth.” The town lynches Townie B. Rather than getting rid of one townie, the Mafia managed to get rid of two. If the Mafia was doing what you’re suggesting, then it would look like this: Townie A accused Townie B of being scum. Townie B is killed by the Mafia. Everyone: 😕 Sure, they might decide that Townie A is scum and was trying to get a townie lynched, but that’s an awfully complex manipulation. I see simpler, more subtle tactics like the first scenario as being more likely. I don’t think this is a strategy that’s going to be used every night, but I do think it’s one we should be wary of, which is why even if I can see some arguments against **fluiddruid** , I’m not willing to cast my vote in that direction right now. It just seems too close to a scum ploy. I feel like I’m arguing myself in circles trying to look at this from every angle, though. I don’t know, I hope that at least made what I’d said before make a _little_ more sense. [/QUOTE] Gotcha. For what it is worth, in my seasoned (all of 1.2 total games) Mafia experience, I’ve seen more lip-service and general chatter supporting the 2nd of your examples as being more likely. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2007, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1004 "2007-05-02T21:21:54Z")
[QUOTE=SnakesCatLady] \ Just so you know, your comment not only makes me more sure of my vote for **fluiddruid** , it pings my scumdar on you, where before you hadn’t really been on the screen. [/QUOTE] This was a reply to **CaerieD** and I have to say I agree..only in MY case she had been on the screen for a long time and her post (which you’re responding to here) made her almost equal (in my mind) suspicion to that of **fluiddruid**. [QUOTE=SnakesCatLady] I don’t understand your reasoning here. Wouldn’t mafia want to leave townies who are fingering other townies (ooooh that sounds dirty) alive? If townies are raising suspicion against other townies they are doing the mafia’s work for them! [/QUOTE] This is my fear why I’m still alive and wasn’t killed off last night (after all, I was wrong about **dnooman** ). But then again it could also be because I’m spot on with every one of my suspicions and it’d be TOO risky to bump me off. You just never know with this game and each kill just brings more questions and conspiracy theories. This game is weird because I find myself agreeing with players who I also have suspicions of (although less suspicion than others)…so that leads me to believe that the scum are doing a good show of fighting with each other in here to throw people off. The whole **Kyrie** and **fluiddruid** case just strikes me as having too many chances and ifs. Yeah, there IS a chance that **fluiddruid** is town and that **Kyrie** was just luckily guessed as the detective but it relies on a lot of coincidences. It seems more probable that either: A. **Kyrie** investigated **fluiddruid** and found her to be scum. Thus his vote. B. **Kyrie** never investigated **fluiddruid** and didn’t know one way or another but voted based on personal suspicion and the mafia, either picking between the only two people who voted spot on ( **Kyrie** and **Snakescatlady** ) or picking **Kyrie** because **Snakescatlady** is also scum, bumped him off figuring he may be the detetive. In both of the above cases it would work out that **fluiddruid** was a mafia player AND also give a possible explanation how the mafia knew (or suspected) him being the detective. However take a lot at the adverse side. First has to be the case that **Kyrie** never investigated **fluiddruid**. THEN the case has to be that **fluiddruid** IS, in fact, pro-town. **THEN** has to be the case that the mafia randomly and luckily chose to kill the detective. AND THEN the case would have to be that we, the people, IF IT DID RANDOMLY TURN OUT TO BE A HIGH PROFILE TOWNIE, would act this way. Just seems to me to be far too many ifs and long shots. Again, it IS POSSIBLE all those things are the case and **fluiddruid** is town. But when you look at all the mounting factors…it doesn’t seem probable and, in my opinion, the detective is the only thing we have to go on to help aid us in choices. ---
**Author:** ![CaerieD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@CaerieD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaerieD)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2007, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1005 "2007-05-02T21:26:13Z")
[QUOTE=ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies] Gotcha. For what it is worth, in my seasoned (all of 1.2 total games) Mafia experience, I’ve seen more lip-service and general chatter supporting the 2nd of your examples as being more likely. [/QUOTE] So have I, but I’m not sure that it’s entirely true when you actually look at who got killed when. I don’t think my theoretical Mafia tactics are used all the time, but it seems like it would fit some of the ploys I’ve seen in this game and the last. I’ll be _very_ interested when this game ends to go back and see who was who for the sake of future scum-spotting strategy. ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2007, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1006 "2007-05-02T22:59:32Z")
When does this “day” end? ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2007, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1007 "2007-05-02T23:05:25Z")
[QUOTE=SnakesCatLady] When does this “day” end? [/QUOTE] [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8523067&postcount=872) you go. ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2007, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1008 "2007-05-02T23:35:04Z")
Thanks! I guess when I read that **Kyrie** was dead I just stopped reading! ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2007, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1009 "2007-05-03T03:22:40Z")
Wow, is this thread dead or what? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2007, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1010 "2007-05-03T03:26:26Z")
Tick tick tick. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Millit\_the\_Frail](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@Millit\_the\_Frail](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Millit_the_Frail)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2007, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1011 "2007-05-03T03:29:21Z")
[QUOTE=Idle Thoughts] Wow, is this thread dead or what? [/QUOTE] Well, you _could_ go back to throwing accusations and suspicion at me… Just kidding, **Idle**. It’s kind of adorable. To get things shaking: Vote **Projammer**. I still buy the arguments against **fluiddruid** , but we’ve got two more days. I may come over and join the crowd…we’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![CaerieD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@CaerieD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaerieD)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2007, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1012 "2007-05-03T03:35:37Z")
Bless you, **Millit**. I was wondering how we were going to break the awkward silence. ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2007, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1013 "2007-05-03T03:58:18Z")
If I have the votes tallied correctly, we have: **fluiddruid** ( **Omi no Kami** , **tirial** , **Snakescatlady** , **IdleThoughts** ) **Projammer** ( **Lightnin’** , **Millet the Frail** ) **Snakescatlady** ( **CaerieD** ) Players with no vote: **fluiddruid** , **Come to the Dark Side…** , **Hal Briston** , **nesta** , **Projammer** , **Lemur866** & **DiggitCamera**. ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2007, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1014 "2007-05-03T04:03:35Z")
I’m not trying to rush anyone to vote; I just would like some discussion! ---
**Author:** ![nesta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a4c791/32.png) [@nesta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nesta)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2007, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1015 "2007-05-03T04:18:10Z")
I’m going to be out of town tomorrow through Sunday afternoon. I should have internet access, probably in the evenings, but just in case I figure it’s time to vote. Vote **fluiddruid**. As I said earlier, I think the chance that she was the breadcrumb is better than other options, and I haven’t seen anything to convince me otherwise. She has seemed scummy to me from the start, and a cursory review of her posts has only confirmed this. She had a hand in keeping the **Projammer** bandwagon from going through both days, and has continued to defend him today. Those facts make me comfortable with this vote. I still heavily **FOS Projammer**. He’s been rather quiet since the spotlight has been on him. I’m still convinced he’s scum. He’s my pick for tomorrow unless something really changes. A new **FOS: CaerieD**. She has also felt rather scummy since the beginning, but I was cutting her a little slack since she did have a hard role the first time around and made a mistake that got her killed early. Her posts, especially today, have lumped her in with **fluiddruid** and **Projammer**. If they are scum, I think we’ve hit the scum trifecta. ---
**Author:** ![Millit\_the\_Frail](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@Millit\_the\_Frail](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Millit_the_Frail)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2007, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1016 "2007-05-03T05:00:14Z")
[QUOTE=nesta] A new **FOS: CaerieD**. She has also felt rather scummy since the beginning, but I was cutting her a little slack since she did have a hard role the first time around and made a mistake that got her killed early. Her posts, especially today, have lumped her in with **fluiddruid** and **Projammer**. If they are scum, I think we’ve hit the scum trifecta. [/QUOTE] They’re totally the scum trifecta of the moment. I think we’re on to something here, as long as we don’t get derailed again. If one of these three doesn’t get lynched today, then we seriously have to look at whomever pulls us off course. And then we’ll have the fourth/fifth/(God help us) sixth. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2007, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1017 "2007-05-03T06:27:12Z")
[QUOTE=CaerieD] So, then, if fluiddruid is scum, the Mafia might have offed Kyrie for the finger-pointing without realizing that they had the Detective. Why they’d kill Kyrie for the finger-pointing and not **SnakesCatLady** doesn’t make much sense unless you think that SnakesCatLady is scum, which I do. [/QUOTE] That’s an excellent point, and an angle I had not yet considered. It seems fairly clear to me that **Kyrie** was killed, not because she was thought to be the detective, as I don’t think anyone saw that one coming, but because it was emminently clear that they wanted to frame \*\*fluiddruid \*\* either as a bluff, or a double-bluff. Alternatively, why didn’t they kill **SnakesCatLady** , would it not have accomplished the same effect? Of course, it’s entirely possible that both are citizens, but you do raise a good point… if they had no reason to suspect \*\*Kyrie \*\* of being a power role, at least as far as I can tell (of course, if I imagine they thought she was the doctor, they almost certainly wouldn’t have tried to kill her), why did they choose her of **SCL**? Is it possible **SCL** voted for **fluiddruid** as a simple, “disguise our tracks” mafia scheme, to simultaneously keep her safe from would have put her right in the thick of either a townie lynch ( **dnooman** ) or a deciding vote for either a fellow mafia/another townie (though, I’m still inclined to think **Projammer** is scum); meanwhile, she gets to obfuscate her voting record by being able to say “see, I voted for mafia, but no one believed me”. Of course, it is also entirely possible she is town, and they simply killed \*\*Kyrie \*\* because they thought it would be more convincing, or they chose randomly between the two. That said, this isn’t enough for me to put the FOS on SCL, but it is enough for her to be demoted from “leaning town” to “Big fat question mark” on my list, simply because there’s too many variables there… is **fluiddruid** scum, is **projammer** scum? ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2007, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1018 "2007-05-03T06:44:06Z")
[QUOTE=SnakesCatLady] If I have the votes tallied correctly, we have: **fluiddruid** ( **Omi no Kami** , **tirial** , **Snakescatlady** , **IdleThoughts** ) **Projammer** ( **Lightnin’** , **Millet the Frail** ) **Snakescatlady** ( **CaerieD** ) Players with no vote: **fluiddruid** , **Come to the Dark Side…** , **Hal Briston** , **nesta** , **Projammer** , **Lemur866** & **DiggitCamera**. [/QUOTE] Just FTR, you don’t have everyone listed; **RQ** and I also have no vote. Although, in my case, I made it clear that my intentions were, and still are, to vote for **fluiddruid** ; though I freely admit that **Projammer** is looking more attractive by the hour with his sudden silence after being put so squarely (well, roundly, I suppose) in the noose. I only unvoted because I feared the potential of a speed lynch. Being that we still have two days, and **fluiddruid** is only three votes away, I’ll wait until at least tomorrow evening to recast my vote. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2007, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1019 "2007-05-03T06:56:30Z")
[QUOTE=Millit the Frail] They’re totally the scum trifecta of the moment. I think we’re on to something here, as long as we don’t get derailed again. If one of these three doesn’t get lynched today, then we seriously have to look at whomever pulls us off course. And then we’ll have the fourth/fifth/(God help us) sixth. [/QUOTE] Well, I really don’t suspect that the votes will go away from **fluiddruid** , regardless of her alignment. Of the trifecta there (with which I happen to agree), **fluiddruid** does have the strongest evidence against her. That said, I can’t see a mafia member, assuming she is scum, putting his neck on the line to save her. Thus, assuming **fluiddruid** is lynched and comes up scum, I’d be more concerned about who tries to stop the lynch of one of the other two in the trifecta tomorrow. That said because even if **fluiddruid** is a lost cause, the other two are not yet, and I’m sure the mafia will be scrambling tonight to figure out how to draw suspicion away from their companions… will they try to frame a townie, or a mafia not in the trifecta to make him look squeeky clean and live 'til the end, or will they try to put more evidence against one of the candidates to try to make it look like they’re trying too hard to get them lynched and double-bluff us? Of course, if **fluiddruid** ends up not being scum, I guess we’re back to square one. ---
**Author:** ![tirial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@tirial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tirial)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2007, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1020 "2007-05-03T08:04:04Z")
[Quote=Blastermaster] "It seems fairly clear to me that Kyrie was killed, not because she was thought to be the detective, as I don’t think anyone saw that one coming, but because it was emminently clear that they wanted to frame fluiddruid either as a bluff, or a double-bluff. " [/QUOTE] I disagree - I think it was partly because Kyrie wasn’t following the herd on the main bandwagon, and was making a strong case against fluiddruid. He’d also made it clear he wasn’t going to be dissuaded. Anyone who could be a leader would be a threat to the mafia. Also, if they didn’t think Kyrie was the Detective, his posts may have made the real Detective check fluiddruid out that night, or the next. If fluiddruid was scum, that would put him at risk of discovery. And besides, [P589](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8502774&postcount=589) shows NAF’s voting record, and we didn’t exactly follow that up the next day (the Projammer/dnooman bandwagon didn’t seem to use NAF’s vote as a driving force). If Kyrie wasn’t the Detective, would we have even looked at his vote if he wasn’t around to press the case? [Quote=Blastermaster] “Alternatively, why didn’t they kill SnakesCatLady, would it not have accomplished the same effect?”\“why did they choose her of SCL?” [/QUOTE] Probably because SnakeCatLady didn’t defend her vote as emphatically - Kyrie posted a second time saying he knew there was an argument against the vote, but was standing by it. As far as I can tell SnakesCatLady voted once, and didn’t press her case. If fluiddruid is scum, she’s less of a threat, if he is town she won’t really point suspicion at him as much. [QUOTE=Blastermaster] Of course, if fluiddruid ends up not being scum, I guess we’re back to square one. [/QUOTE] I think today has been useful regardless. If fluiddruid isn’t scum, then he isn’t the breadcrumb either. Some posters have had very interesting reactions (I will say I am still looking closely at **Lightnin’** , after his rush to lynch earlier today) and several voting patterns are clearer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527.md?page=50) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527.md?page=52)