# Mafia The Game III: Kinder and Gentler **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 17, 2007, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527 "2007-04-17T21:34:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 74
**Author:** ![CaerieD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@CaerieD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaerieD)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1461 "2007-05-14T14:48:06Z")
All right, I’m trying to play catchup so I’ve shoved all of my commentary on the thread so far today into one post. [QUOTE=Idle Thoughts] Well, as I said in [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8559289&postcount=1363), I knew my chances were good that at least one of the top four people I was most suspicious off was scum. All of them? I very much doubt it. Even I don’t think I’m that close to being good. Three of them? Maybe…I again, odds are no. Maybe two of them are, but if that is the case, fluiddruid was one so I no longer am as suspicious of **CaerieD** or **Millit the Frail** (or **tirial** either, for that matter) as I was before. [/QUOTE] I can’t believe I’m arguing with logic that has me “less likely to be scum”, but I suggest you rethink this, **Idle Thoughts**. It is entirely possible that you were correct in more than one case. I know I’m town and I’m fairly certain **tirial** is town at this point (not too sure about **Millit** ), but I wouldn’t bet the whole game on it. **Kyrie** only had one breadcrumb, and yet managed to be right in at least three instances– **dnooman** and **Projammer** were both town and **fluiddruid** was scum. At least two of those were lucky guesses, possibly all three if it turns out **Blaster Master** was the breadcrumb. If **Kyrie** could guess that well, it’s possible others could as well. Plus, as our trust of certain people grows, the likelihood of one of them ending up the recruit becomes higher. [QUOTE=Hal Briston] Huh…interesting…here are the top posting players at the moment: **tirial** 108 **Idle Thoughts** 107 **DiggitCamara** 105 **SnakesCatLady** 98 Now, when I was running this theory through my head, I was thinking “low-posting players – like **tirial** ”. How the hell I’m getting almost no read on him after 108 posts is beyond me. [/QUOTE] You have almost no read on **tirial**? That in itself seems awfully fishy. She’s been posting like a madwoman and has thrown out tons of analysis and observations. There’s a ton of content to decide one way or the other. She’s either scum trying to manipulate us or townie with a lot to say. At this point, she’s said so much I find it hard to believe anyone would lack an opinion one way or the other. [QUOTE=Lightnin’] This is pretty much the same conclusion I’ve come to, as well. It’s why I voted on **fluiddruid** yesterday, even though I’m normally loathe to jump on a bandwagon. Going over the past votes, **CaerieD** stuck out like a sore thumb, and her voting pattern implicated **fluiddruid**. We need to get the scum out, even if it means going for the easy votes, so I went with the flow. Today, however, it’s time to vote **CaerieD**. [/QUOTE] Let me get this straight. You’re voting for me because somebody else thinks I’m scum…because my votes inadvertently saved your neck? Did you respond to the wrong post or something? Because this is just confusing me. If you were a townie and I was scum, what would I have to gain by saving you? If I was scum, having to choose between which townie to send down the river, I’d go with the townie least likely to make waves or else stay out of it entirely. If we were both scum, it might make sense and that’s where the suspicion came from: the assumption that you and I were scum and I was trying to save my teammate. Onto my defense of **fluiddruid** …oy. There is nothing I can say that could possibly make up for that idiocy. A lot of my assumptions on how I thought the Mafia would play things out were dead wrong and I’ve had to completely revise everything I’d thought before. The only thing I have to use in my defense is that while what I did was pretty boneheaded for a townie, it’d be ridiculously suicidal for scum. **fluiddruid** even drew _attention_ to my defense of her, likely hoping to ensure that no one would forget I’d defended her when she finally got outed as scum. ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1462 "2007-05-14T14:58:04Z")
[QUOTE=Idle Thoughts] Exactly. So WHY wouldn’t she know or they know we’d think that? Therefore pointing out that **SCL** was scum or putting suspicion on her would actually do the opposite of what she was claiming. That we’d all go “Oohhh no, then **SCL** most assuredly could not be scum.” I say she told the truth there, just so we’d think otherwise (like you just said) and thus throw us completely off the trail. (snip) [/QUOTE] Ah! But she’d know we’d know she was scum and therefore she’d know we’d think she’d think we’d think she told the truth and would tell a lie to throw us off! In other words: it’s a tipical case of trying to outguess the other side. We might get it right on one count but be completely off the track on the next count. Or vice versa. And it would keep our discussion mired on one post (which was crafted by scum for townies). That way madness lies. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1463 "2007-05-14T15:40:51Z")
Things got a bit busy this weekend, my apologies. **CarieD** makes some solid points, and I don’t like **Lightnin’s** vote for her very much either. I’m keeping them both on my list to watch carefully though. I agree with **Diggit** that **Idle** is wandering into some murky territory with over-thinking what (if anything) to take from **fluiddruid’s** moot defense. **SnakesCatLaty** and **Hal** seem interested in poking a stick at me, which is fine as long as the same is done to other folks who also aren’t garnering much attention. I am confident that I will hold-up to scrutiny, and I think it is healthy to poke sticks. ---
**Author:** ![Millit\_the\_Frail](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@Millit\_the\_Frail](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Millit_the_Frail)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1464 "2007-05-14T15:52:37Z")
[QUOTE=ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies] Things got a bit busy this weekend, my apologies. **CarieD** makes some solid points, and I don’t like **Lightnin’s** vote for her very much either. I’m keeping them both on my list to watch carefully though. I agree with **Diggit** that **Idle** is wandering into some murky territory with over-thinking what (if anything) to take from **fluiddruid’s** moot defense. **SnakesCatLaty** and **Hal** seem interested in poking a stick at me, which is fine as long as the same is done to other folks who also aren’t garnering much attention. I am confident that I will hold-up to scrutiny, and I think it is healthy to poke sticks. [/QUOTE] Ow, quit it! No, OK, poke me, I can handle it! Anyway, I can see\*\* Diggit’s\*\* reasoning, but I’m skeptical that **fluiddruid** had a lot of input in writing that post. The scum had been doing very well, and I think that they honestly thought they had a chance of swaying us from\*\* fluiddruid\*\* going into yesterday. I’m not sure if I can see who they were trying to put up instead, but I don’t think they went into it thinking all was lost. Maybe somewhere around the sixth or seventh vote, but I don’t think we would have gotten such a long, composed defense from **fluid** if she thought it was all over. And even if she did, I think she saw one more chance to screw with our minds and took it. That was one time-intensive post. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1465 "2007-05-14T16:20:53Z")
[QUOTE=CaerieD] Let me get this straight. You’re voting for me because somebody else thinks I’m scum…because my votes inadvertently saved your neck? Did you respond to the wrong post or something? Because this is just confusing me. If you were a townie and I was scum, what would I have to gain by saving you? If I was scum, having to choose between which townie to send down the river, I’d go with the townie least likely to make waves or else stay out of it entirely. If we were both scum, it might make sense and that’s where the suspicion came from: the assumption that you and I were scum and I was trying to save my teammate. [/QUOTE] Nope, actually. Going over your voting record, I found that for the most part, you’d voted against townies. Initially you’d vote for someone else, but then you’d switch over to townies (and then away again, once it looked like that person was going to be lynched). Basically, it seems like you’re trying to be as invisible as possible in your voting record, but still help to insure the lynching of a townie. And actually, it was your voting record which convinced me that **fluiddruid** was scum. After going over the voting history, I started to suspect you- and that made me suspect **fluiddruid** , and of course, she turned out to be scum. Of course, I’m aware that my voting record kinda sucks, too- until **fluiddruid** , I haven’t final voted anyone other than townie. However, for the most part, once I’ve decided that someone’s Mafia, I stick with that person. You seemed to jump from person to person in the best way to insure a town lynch. [SUB]I hope all that made sense. I’m still pretty fried from my morning workout.[/SUB] ---
**Author:** ![tirial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@tirial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tirial)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1466 "2007-05-14T18:02:56Z")
With regard to **CaerieD** and **Lightnin’** I’ll say this, I’m not sure **CaerieD** is scum as there are other possibilities that fit her behaviour pattern. Then again I keep thinking **Lightnin’** may be a poor player rather than scum, then wondering if anyone is that poor a player. On the other hand I’ve FOS’d CaerieD and voted for Lightnin’, and I’m definitely getting an odd vibe from both of them. **Hal Briston** , you are beginning to rise up my scum-o-meter. Nothing definite, just a lot of dodgy calls. 1. You have repeatedly said we need to investigate low postcount posters, but haven’t posted any analysis from your own investigations. 2. You don’t have a read on me after 108 posts? You might not be certain one way or the other, but you should at least have an opinion. 3. You are in the top five on the chart of town/scum/unknown votes [P1340](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8558442&postcount=1340)"If fluiddruid swings, and turns out to be town, then it’s going to be crunch time – we’re going to have to assume that the scum are keeping very low profiles" You also assumed the opposite, that if she swings and turns out to be scum, that’s you off the hook. See [P1415](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8567345&postcount=1415). **Millit** I’m not taking fluiddruid’s defense post as the unvarnished truth, but I am interested in any errors or slips that might reveal a scum. fluiddruid missed Hal’s vote against a townie out of the totals on Day One - I can’t find any others she’s done that to. She has got them out of order on occassion - putting me as the first vote and Diggit as the last vote against **percypercy** for example. However, if post [1323](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8555543&postcount=1323) by our known ex-scum, is anything to go by they didn’t want us looking at who _looked in detail_ at the reasons for a no-kill that night. It could be misdirection to try and look more townie, or it could be concern for a fellow scum, or even both. CaerieD starts following this up in P1316. I reply in 1322, pointing out Lemur866 digging at this. Lemur’s posts after this are interesting: [P1327](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8555831&postcount=1327) I find interesting as Lemur leads with “Except I don’t think I am wrong.” My post, which he’s answering, doesn’t ask if he’s right or wrong. It asks why he is asking these questions at all, when the information can only help the mafia. (I’ll let the scum remind the town why this is bad: **fluiddruid** P1334 “But that’s why a role claim comes in so handy for scum. Ultimately, if someone claims the Doctor or Night Watchman accurately, their days are numbered. Once the scum know who Doctor is _and_ who Night Watchman is, it’s just a matter of time before both are gone.”) [P1332](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8556058&postcount=1332) is actually not logical - I’ll leave you to spot the gaping flaw in it, but on re-read it seems designed to out the doctor. Most of his posts have had huge logical flaws in (as Idle Thoughts points out [P1333](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8556151&postcount=1333)). Several of his earlier posts - as early as Day One - seem surprisingly concerned with power roles, so this may just be playing style, but several of his posts are factually incorrect and may be designed to get information on a power-role, or at least draw out experienced townies. Now, to be honest, this post is more random musings than anything else, but I still think **Lemur866** and **Hal Briston** could take closer looking at. **CaerieD** and **Lightnin’** , we’ve been round and round on, and I honestly don’t know what to think. ---
**Author:** ![tirial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@tirial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tirial)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1467 "2007-05-14T18:17:47Z")
[QUOTE=Lightnin’] Nope, actually. Going over your voting record, I found that for the most part, you’d voted against townies. Initially you’d vote for someone else, but then you’d switch over to townies (and then away again, once it looked like that person was going to be lynched). Basically, it seems like you’re trying to be as invisible as possible in your voting record, but still help to insure the lynching of a townie. [/QUOTE] Err… **Lightnin** , my post was hoping to get information on **CaerieD** and **Blastermaster** and I mentioned you because you were involved in both cases (as the person the bandwagon moved away from in Day One, and the person who started the bandwagon on **Projammer** that saved **fluiddruid** in Day Three). Do you understand that voting **CaerieD** as scum using my logic does actually imply you are scum? (More for Day Three’s actions than Day One). If you are town, I would strongly suggest finding other reasons for your vote. If you are mafia congrats on a brilliant strategy that has me thoroughly thrown. (Is it wrong to want to lynch someone just to find out if they are scum or if they are really that clueless? I know it doesn’t help the town (hence no vote), but currently my main scum tell on **Lightnin** is that no one can be so determined to condemn themselves… Then I think of **percypercy** and get confused.) ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1468 "2007-05-14T18:56:02Z")
[QUOTE=tirial] (Is it wrong to want to lynch someone just to find out if they are scum or if they are really that clueless? I know it doesn’t help the town (hence no vote), but currently my main scum tell on **Lightnin** is that no one can be so determined to condemn themselves… [/QUOTE] Wow. No need to get insulting, dude. In my opinion, my strategy is _just as valid as yours._ I stated the reason I suspected **CaerieD** , and how that helped me realize that **fluiddruid** was Scum. Now, that strategy worked out- **fluiddruid** was _indeed_ Mafia. According to my strategy, if **fluiddruid** was Mafia, so is **CaerieD**. If I change my reasoning, THAT is a scumtell. Yes, I voted for Townies before- however, like others, _I was wrong_. I’m not the only one who was wrong. Look at it this way- would Mafia be so freakin’ stupid as to vote so blatantly for Townies, and then do a 180 and vote on a Mafia and use that as a reason to vote for another potential scum? With every vote, I’ve said why I felt that person was Mafia. If you’ve got a specific problem with any or all of my reasons for previous votes, go ahead and ask. I’ve already justified each vote, so please list the _specific_ problems you’ve got with those reasons. As far as I can tell, I’ve had several players who decided I was guilty on the very first day, and there’s nothing I can do to shake that conviction. Frankly, I’m getting tired of the constant accusations. ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1469 "2007-05-14T19:03:19Z")
Ahhh, finally, back to work. After a week spent on “vacation”, it’s wonderful to get back to being forced to sit at my computer for eight hours. 🙂 Now then, it would seem I’ve attracted a bit of attention of late. Since **tirial** seems to have summed things up pretty succinctly, I’ll begin there. > [@tirial](#): > > **Hal Briston** , you are beginning to rise up my scum-o-meter. Nothing definite, just a lot of dodgy calls. > > 1. You have repeatedly said we need to investigate low postcount posters, but haven’t posted any analysis from your own investigations. That’s because there haven’t been any yet. As I’ve stated, I’ve been on “home vacation” for the past week – very little computer time, most of the time getting much-needed stuff done around the house (Hell, in the first post of mine you linked below, I thought I missed the vote I had so much going on). In an attempt to keep up _some_ contribution, I noted a possible theory I thought might be useful to look into. How that has translated into a scum tell for a few players is truly a testament to the paranoia this game generates. However, now I’m back at work, which ironically gives me much more free time to read back through a few hundred posts and see if there is anything to my idea. > [@tirial](#): > > 1. You don’t have a read on me after 108 posts? You might not be certain one way or the other, but you should at least have an opinion. 'Eh…my own fault. I’m guilty of one of the classic message board problems – reading posts without paying close attention to names – a very bad habit indeed when it comes to this game. Add in a short, all-lower-case username, and the effect multiplies. I’m sure it’s what put you on my “Not Really Sure” list in [Post #931](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8525940&postcount=931). Another reason, albeit very minor one, may be that you’re a sub. The printout I have tacked up next to me is of the original player list, so when I’m glancing at it and thinking “I gotta print out the updated list…no use having a printout with **Achren** and **percussion** ’s names on them”, your name isn’t jumping out at me. However, in looking back through the thread while composing this post, a lot of things you have posted have stuck this time around. Rest assured – I’m realizing who you are now and the scum vibes are pretty low (also, I’ll never again refer to you as “he” – sorry about that! :)). > [@tirial](#): > > 1. You are in the top five on the chart of town/scum/unknown votes > [P1340](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8558442&postcount=1340)"If fluiddruid swings, and turns out to be town, then it’s going to be crunch time – we’re going to have to assume that the scum are keeping very low profiles" You also assumed the opposite, that if she swings and turns out to be scum, that’s you off the hook. See [P1415](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8567345&postcount=1415). I don’t follow your “that’s you off the hook” comment, but you overlooked the post just above the one you linked, in which I stated “I know that I said we should be looking at the low-notice players if **fluiddruid** turned out to be town, but I can’t help but think that the scum are playing things close to the vest.” In other words, if **fluiddruid** had turned out to be town, then I’d be convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that the scum were playing things quietly. However, even though she turned out to be scum, that doesn’t mean I was wrong with that idea. Anyway, we already covered much of this in Point #1 – I’ll be tracking through and seeing if anything comes of the idea. As for being in the top five of the voting chart – \ – oh well… When this is all said and done, let’s take a look back at that chart at this point. I’ll guarantee you that the top five will have no more than one scum team member in it. Their entire game is to get town to vote for town. Voting charts certainly can be useful, once they have a sufficient amount of data. We’re not there yet, however, and trying to pick out which of the current top five is the mob member is a great way to get a couple more townspeople lynched. Sure, I had a hand in some of the town lynchings – they wouldn’t have been lynched if they weren’t pinging as scummy – but in the end a hell of a lot of it is pure luck of the draw. Unfortunately, the town had it a bit on the bad side for quite awhile. I believe it was **SCL** who noted that I "voted late for **fluiddruid**. Well, of course it was late – hell, I thought I missed it altogether. I simply hadn’t been online for more than five minutes at a clip, so there wasn’t much time to read back through three pages of the thread. Anyway, again – old news, and pretty meaningless now. Ok, this is fun, but I probably should spend a little time doing my actual job before I tackle going back through the thread. Back this evening. ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1470 "2007-05-14T19:17:05Z")
[QUOTE=Lightnin’] Wow. No need to get insulting, dude. As far as I can tell, I’ve had several players who decided I was guilty on the very first day, and there’s nothing I can do to shake that conviction. Frankly, I’m getting tired of the constant accusations. [/QUOTE] (psst: she is a dudette) Other then that, you’re using the famous “ **fluiddruid** ” defense. A valid and proven way to demonstrate you are not scum… Or not. ---
**Author:** ![CaerieD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@CaerieD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaerieD)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1471 "2007-05-14T19:31:16Z")
[QUOTE=Lightnin’] Yes, I voted for Townies before- however, like others, _I was wrong_. I’m not the only one who was wrong. Look at it this way- would Mafia be so freakin’ stupid as to vote so blatantly for Townies, and then do a 180 and vote on a Mafia and use that as a reason to vote for another potential scum? [/QUOTE] **Lightnin’** , the thing is that you’re accusing me based on my votes for confirmed townies, my defense of **fluiddruid** , and then my 180 vote on **fluiddruid**. As you pointed out in your earlier response, my vote record is what prompted your vote against me: > [@](#): > > Nope, actually. Going over your voting record, I found that for the most part, you’d voted against townies. Initially you’d vote for someone else, but then you’d switch over to townies (and then away again, once it looked like that person was going to be lynched). Basically, it seems like you’re trying to be as invisible as possible in your voting record, but still help to insure the lynching of a townie. As your summary of your own history in P1468 so nicely shows, the evidence against me is very similar–and in some cases linked–to the evidence against you. Because if I was hopping bandwagons purposefully to get a townie lynched, why did my votes leave you–supposedly a townie–safe? Now, it’s possible we’re both incredibly inept townies. Oh my, yes, it’s possible. Or, and this is what I fear, you’re scum trying to stir things up. In fact, right now it’d make a lot of sense for you to be scum from my perspective. You’re actually voting based on 1) suspicion cast on me because my votes inadvertently led to you not getting lynched and 2) my poor voting choices that have been _very similar_ to yours. If you’re scum and get taken out, well, now you’ve made sure everyone is aware of similarities between our play, upping the chances that your compatriots can get a townie lynched. Very similar to **fluiddruid** ’s references to how wonderfully I’d defended her–insurance that when she was gone suspicion would remain on a townie. Just a useful red herring to help the rest continue to hide. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1472 "2007-05-14T19:35:16Z")
[QUOTE=DiggitCamara] (psst: she is a dudette) Other then that, you’re using the famous “ **fluiddruid** ” defense. A valid and proven way to demonstrate you are not scum… Or not. [/QUOTE] Not an attempt to prove my innocence- merely a statement of fact. And your post is just another example of the kind of insinuation I’m getting tired of- vaguely cloaked implication, with no real evidence to back it up. More like character assassination. That said, bear in mind that the ONLY fact any one of us has is our own role. I KNOW that I’m innocent, and I have to build my strategy based upon that. Here, let’s try this- prove to me you’re Town. Go ahead. We’ll wait. … You can’t. The only thing you can do is offer explanations of why you’re not Mafia. YOU know what role you play, and you build your strategy based upon that. I’m doing the same, except that I’m constantly having to defend myself from the constant “Lightnin’ sure looks guilty, don’t he?” posts. I don’t recall EVER trying to use the “don’t lynch me because I swear I’m Town” defense. At most I’ve said that I use it as the basis of MY strategy, not that anyone else should take my word for it. ---
**Author:** ![tirial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@tirial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tirial)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1473 "2007-05-14T19:36:18Z")
[QUOTE=Lightnin’] Wow. No need to get insulting, dude. [/QUOTE] No insult intended, I’m just utter incredulous. And I’d have thought you’d be glad that my scumtell on you is so weak. [QUOTE=Lightnin’] As far as I can tell, I’ve had several players who decided I was guilty on the very first day, and there’s nothing I can do to shake that conviction. Frankly, I’m getting tired of the constant accusations. [/Quote] Then don’t do things like trying to rush the end of Day 3 by voting Projammer when you think its the last vote needed to lynch, and on Day 5 quoting logic that implicates you as scum as a reason for your vote. You have to admit those look scummy. ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1474 "2007-05-14T19:44:54Z")
[QUOTE=Lightnin’] Not an attempt to prove my innocence- merely a statement of fact. And your post is just another example of the kind of insinuation I’m getting tired of- vaguely cloaked implication, with no real evidence to back it up. More like character assassination. (snip) I don’t recall EVER trying to use the “don’t lynch me because I swear I’m Town” defense. At most I’ve said that I use it as the basis of MY strategy, not that anyone else should take my word for it. [/QUOTE] I’d characterize your defense as being: 1. Mainly saying “I’m not scum” 2. Getting angry at anyone who says you’re probably scum (no matter what they base their accusations on) There are several data points that points to your being scum. One of them is how you escaped from the first day lynching. Others are your voting patterns. Your defensive posture to accusations is a huge one. Finally there’s the fact that your analysis has been almost non-existent. No matter what you say about there not being a possibility to elude suspicions once they’ve been cast on you, there are several townies who have been able to be at the receiving end without immediately flipping. Heck, I’ve been FOS-ed several times and my strategy to deal with unfounded accusations has simply been to point out the flaw (if appliable) and/or to engage whomever has accused me. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1475 "2007-05-14T19:45:12Z")
[QUOTE=tirial] Lemur’s posts after this are interesting: [P1327](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8555831&postcount=1327) I find interesting as Lemur leads with “Except I don’t think I am wrong.” My post, which he’s answering, doesn’t ask if he’s right or wrong. It asks why he is asking these questions at all, when the information can only help the mafia. (I’ll let the scum remind the town why this is bad: **fluiddruid** P1334 “But that’s why a role claim comes in so handy for scum. Ultimately, if someone claims the Doctor or Night Watchman accurately, their days are numbered. Once the scum know who Doctor is _and_ who Night Watchman is, it’s just a matter of time before both are gone.”) [P1332](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8556058&postcount=1332) is actually not logical - I’ll leave you to spot the gaping flaw in it, but on re-read it seems designed to out the doctor. Most of his posts have had huge logical flaws in (as Idle Thoughts points out [P1333](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8556151&postcount=1333)). Several of his earlier posts - as early as Day One - seem surprisingly concerned with power roles, so this may just be playing style, but several of his posts are factually incorrect and may be designed to get information on a power-role, or at least draw out experienced townies. [/QUOTE] How was my post supposed to out the doctor? Nothing I wrote could help identify the doctor, I was just questioning the assertion that a doctor or night-watchman recruitment would be much worse than a doctor or nightwatchman kill. The only difference anyone could see is that a scum doc could role-claim doc. If a vanilla scum role-claimed doc, the real doc would know for sure they were scum. As far as I can see, that’s the only advantage to the scum to recuit them. Of course a recruitment removes their ability to protect the town, that’s not the point, the point is that killing them also removes their ability to protect the town. And my other analysis was to show that non-mason role-claims themselves aren’t very useful for either scum or town. As Idle Thoughts points out though, if two people role-claim for the same role then even if we lynch both we’re ahead, because killing one scum for one town is a bargain. So I guess I was incorrect, on balance it’s better for a lynchee to role-claim if possible, at worst we’ll lynch them anyway, which was what was going to happen anyway. Middle value case is that we lynch them and lynch a counter-claimer, for a net loss of one scum and one town, which is a net gain for the town, and at best we’ll choose some other victim. But in neither case am I trying to “out” power roles. Nothing I said could be used to identify power roles, and I can’t understand why you’d assert it could. Or does that have to be kept secret, so the scum can’t use my musings to help themselves? So is discussing strategy scummy? Or is it only scummy if you disagree with me? There’s no chance I could be legitimately mistaken? I’m open to the possiblity that my analysis is crap, but simply telling me that my analysis is crap without revealing WHY is pointless. Or is your contention that telling me why I’m wrong will give information to the scum? How the heck are we supposed to keep ahead in this game if we can’t discuss strategy? Look, the scum don’t need to discuss strategy like this openly, they can conspire secretly. If a scum has an insight for how to spot a power-role they don’t have to post it here, they can tell their mafia buddies all about it in secret. Our trouble is that everything we post can be read by the scum too. So we have to discuss things openly, otherwise we might as well do away with discussion and just vote. If we adopt your strategy we’re dead. So I find your insinuation that anyone who discusses things too openly, or provides analysis that you disagree with but you have to keep the reason you disagree secret, very interesting. The scum want us in the dark and afraid, and you’re helping them. Am I going to FOS you for that? A bit, but that doesn’t mean I’m convinced you’re scum, or even that I’m leaning that you’re scum. But I am convinced that your arguments will shut down analysis, shut down discussion, and are counterproductive. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1476 "2007-05-14T20:49:42Z")
[QUOTE=CaerieD] As your summary of your own history in P1468 so nicely shows, the evidence against me is very similar–and in some cases linked–to the evidence against you. Because if I was hopping bandwagons purposefully to get a townie lynched, why did my votes leave you–supposedly a townie–safe? Now, it’s possible we’re both incredibly inept townies. Oh my, yes, it’s possible. Or, and this is what I fear, you’re scum trying to stir things up. [/QUOTE] Of course, the main difference between you and I is that _you_ voted to protect a (now) known Mafia player, **fluiddruid**. The way you initially voted for her, early in the day, then retracted your vote once others started to be suspicious of her seemed a little strange to me, especially since you then jumped over to someone we know now was Town. However, it makes perfect sense if you’re scum, and you were trying to maintain innocence while keeping a low profile. What’s more, earlier than that you had voted for one town player, then abstained when the vote came down to two (later revealed through lynching) townies. That’s yet another way to keep a low profile. I’ve never maintained that I’m very good at this. This is my first time to ever play something like this. However, I’m getting very irritated that I’m being called “inept” when my chosen strategy lead me to vote for a player who then ended up being Mafia, despite my saying that I think bandwagon voting is suspicious in and of itself. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1477 "2007-05-14T21:07:15Z")
[QUOTE=DiggitCamara] I’d characterize your defense as being: 1. Mainly saying “I’m not scum” 2. Getting angry at anyone who says you’re probably scum (no matter what they base their accusations on) [/QUOTE] 1. And no attempt to say that I’m not saying “I’m not scum” will ever be heard. As I’ve said, I use it as the basis of _my own_ strategy, and I have never told anyone else to use it as part of theirs. In other words, players who accuse me of being Scum are automatically suspect, in my eyes. As a matter of fact, I voted against a previous Town player simply because I thought he roleclaimed the one unprovable role, that of the Do-Gooder. 2)Yeah, at first, I made the mistake of trying to defend myself, and apparently came off too strong. However, (and here’s the question you _should_ be asking), why would a Mafia player become defensive? Mafia don’t have to defend themselves too strongly, as _they’ve got teammates who can help with any explanation_. [QUOTE=DiggitCamara] There are several data points that points to your being scum. One of them is how you escaped from the first day lynching. Others are your voting patterns. Your defensive posture to accusations is a huge one. Finally there’s the fact that your analysis has been almost non-existent. [/QUOTE] The first day, the Mafia hadn’t had a chance to organize. I think any strategy based on that day has to keep that in mind. I can’t help how others voted on that day- maybe they found someone else more suspicious? As for my “suspicious voting patterns”, I’m not the only person who has voted to lynch revealed Town players. My voting pattern doesn’t indicate any attempts to defend anyone, does it? My defensive posture to accusations? If a “defensive posture to accusations” is suspicious, why the hell would Mafia do it? They don’t need to defend themselves- they’ve got friends who would help. A better explanation might be that I’m getting really tired of having to explain this Every. Damn. Time. As for my analysis being “almost non-existent”, I say bullshit. I’ve explained every one of my votes and FOS’s. What’s more, I was right about **fluiddruid**. [QUOTE=DiggitCamara] No matter what you say about there not being a possibility to elude suspicions once they’ve been cast on you, there are several townies who have been able to be at the receiving end without immediately flipping. Heck, I’ve been FOS-ed several times and my strategy to deal with unfounded accusations has simply been to point out the flaw (if appliable) and/or to engage whomever has accused me. [/QUOTE] You’ve never been a frontrunner for lynching, have you? You haven’t been attacked as consistently as I have, have you? We get it, you think I’m Scum. Fine. ---
**Author:** ![CaerieD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@CaerieD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaerieD)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1478 "2007-05-14T22:02:04Z")
[QUOTE=Lightnin’] Of course, the main difference between you and I is that _you_ voted to protect a (now) known Mafia player, **fluiddruid**. The way you initially voted for her, early in the day, then retracted your vote once others started to be suspicious of her seemed a little strange to me, especially since you then jumped over to someone we know now was Town. However, it makes perfect sense if you’re scum, and you were trying to maintain innocence while keeping a low profile. What’s more, earlier than that you had voted for one town player, then abstained when the vote came down to two (later revealed through lynching) townies. That’s yet another way to keep a low profile. I’ve never maintained that I’m very good at this. This is my first time to ever play something like this. However, I’m getting very irritated that I’m being called “inept” when my chosen strategy lead me to vote for a player who then ended up being Mafia, despite my saying that I think bandwagon voting is suspicious in and of itself. [/QUOTE] Up until Day 4, I had never voted for **fluiddruid**. I’d voted for **SnakesCatLady** , because I believed her to be scum–why else would **Kyrie** , the only other person who voted for fluiddruid, be the one killed for finger pointing and not SCL?–and then retracted my vote when it became clear that it was going to be utterly wasted by remaining on her. I did many things that were ill-advised on that day, but sadly, voting for fluiddruid didn’t occur. The grand majority of my “inept” comments have been directed towards myself, because I’m not doing so hot. If you’re a townie who’s made similar mistakes, I sympathize and certainly mean no insult by implying you might be on par with me. Woe be to anyone on the same level as me. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![CaerieD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@CaerieD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaerieD)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1479 "2007-05-14T22:03:32Z")
That was poorly worded. That should read: Up until Day 4, I had never voted for fluiddruid. **On Day 3** I’d voted for SnakesCatLady, because I believed her to be scum–why else would Kyrie, the only other person who voted for fluiddruid, be the one killed for finger pointing and not SCL?–and then retracted my vote when it became clear that it was going to be utterly wasted by remaining on her. I did many things that were ill-advised on that day, but sadly, voting for fluiddruid didn’t occur. ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1480 "2007-05-14T22:08:15Z")
[QUOTE=CaerieD] That was poorly worded. That should read: Up until Day 4, I had never voted for fluiddruid. **On Day 3** I’d voted for SnakesCatLady, because I believed her to be scum–why else would Kyrie, the only other person who voted for fluiddruid, be the one killed for finger pointing and not SCL?–and then retracted my vote when it became clear that it was going to be utterly wasted by remaining on her. I did many things that were ill-advised on that day, but sadly, voting for fluiddruid didn’t occur. [/QUOTE] I think what may have gotten **Kyrie** killed was the comment she made when she voted for **fluiddruid** - something along the lines of “there is a vote I can get behind”. Until then, no one had paid attention to any of my votes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527.md?page=73) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527.md?page=75)