# Mafia The Game III: Kinder and Gentler **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 17, 2007, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527 "2007-04-17T21:34:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 76
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2007, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1501 "2007-05-15T19:02:44Z")
You’re right. It will. Barring that is the case. (and heck, maybe if it ISN’T the case like what happened with you and **fluiddruid**. I’m just going to take my chances though. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2007, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1502 "2007-05-15T19:11:33Z")
[QUOTE=SnakesCatLady] However, you seem to be determined not to listen to anything I have to say, so there’s not much point in defending myself to you anymore. [/QUOTE] Snipped some. I like how you put it that way. How I’m DETERMINED not to listen and making it seem like you’re putting forth this great reasoning that you don’t see how I could not pay attention to it. This is, yet again, what I don’t get. Listen, all I’m doing is voting and getting suspicions on people based on my observations and reasoning from what has transpired, so far, in the game. How is that weird or determined not to listen? The case seems to be, right now, that you’re going: “One person voted for me based on perfectly possible reasons. However let me try to telling all I can to get him to unvote me and then, when he sticks to his guns, accuse him of being determined to be “wrong””. You’re saying I’m not listening to anything you’re saying. I say that I am and have understood everything so far…but still think it’s extremely plausible that it was a set up. Well hey! If I’m wrong, I’m wrong. I admit fully that I could be wrong. However, I don’t FEEL or THINK I’m wrong and have also explained to you all the reasons why I think this. So what are we left with? Nothing. No harm, no foul. You’re in no danger of being lynched and think of it THIS way…if you really ARE town, then chances are everyone scummy will gang up on you and help me lynch you, just so it will look bad for me the next day. THAT certainly seems plausible, doesn’t it? Only guess what? I don’t think that’s going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2007, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1503 "2007-05-15T22:29:20Z")
Ok, my low-post-count investigation is done, and I’ve found an intrinsic flaw in my theory – “flying under the radar” is a _very_ subjective concept. I’d previously said that I had little read on **tirial** , yet even though **Rachm Qoch** has the lowest in-thread post count of any living player, I know exactly where he stands on my radar. I suppose some of this comes from recognizing names pre-Mafia. I had never noticed **tirial** before this game, but I was very much aware of **Rachm “Reaper” Qoch**. Anyway, even though “flying under the radar” is subjective, post counts are not (well, maybe they are a _little_…some players prefer to put five points into five short posts, while others would put those same five points into one long post…but I digress). So, I’m taking a look at those with the lowest post counts as of 5:00pm EST, 5/15/07: Rachm Qoch 39 Hal Briston 47 nesta 49 Lightnin’ 60 Millit the Frail 60 ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies 60 One thing I’ve figured out through this – my theory was crap. Pretty much useless. I gleaned very little from this, and as (I think) **tirial** pointed out awhile back, the lack of posting makes finding the nuggets more difficult. But, here’s what I managed to scrape up, in order by post count: **Rachm Qoch** – My take: Not Scum. He puts quite a bit of analysis into [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8568682#post8568682) in response to **Idle Thoughts** ’ post about the events of Night Three. If **Rachm** isn’t town, then putting this much work into appearing to be town is a magnificent bluff. **Hal Briston** – My take: Definitely Not Scum. **Gadarene** told me so. 🙂 **nesta** – My take: Undecided, leaning towards Not Scum. I didn’t find anything terribly convincing either way. However, I did find an interesting post about the next player on our block… **Lightnin’** – My take: Prossibly scum. The reasons for such have been bandied about for quite awhile now, and to be honest, it was looking like a bit of a railroading to me. However, reading back through older posts with fresh eyes brings interesting things to light. **nesta** ’s [Post #475](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8493916&postcount=475), for example (_Johnny Dangerously_ quotes excepted). **Millit the Frail** – My take: Undecided, leaning ever so slightly towards Not Scum. This would probably be a flat-out undecided if he didn’t push pretty hard for lynching **fluiddruid**. Beyond that, I didn’t come across much that hasn’t been heavily covered elsewhere. **ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies** – My take: Damnation, do I ever want to say Scum. Maybe it’s posting style, hell, maybe it’s just username, but **DarkSideCookies** has lit up my scumdar for days now. Trouble is, I can’t find a shred of anything to back that up. It seems to be a common problem of mine. I’ll say this much – I will absolutely, 100% guarantee that of **DarkSideCookies** , **SnakesCatLady** and **CaerieD** , we’ve got at least one Mafia member in there. Ok…99% guarantee. But I’m pretty damn sure of it anyway. Just wish I could back it up with more than the bits others have already posted. Ok, I started this post (in Notepad, obviously) over 24 hours ago. Time to toss it on the board and see what shakes out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2007, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1504 "2007-05-15T22:32:17Z")
[QUOTE=Hal Briston] **Lightnin’** – My take: Prossibly scum. [/QUOTE] Hmmm…did I just invent a new word? If I’m not mistaken, that started out as “Probably”, but I attempted to change it to “Possibly”. To be honest, “Prossibly” fits the bill better than either of those others, though. ---
**Author:** ![nesta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a4c791/32.png) [@nesta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nesta)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2007, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1505 "2007-05-16T01:40:16Z")
I realized about halfway through composing this that it’s anything but concise – sorry about that. I looked through **Hal Briston’s** posts last night, making some notes on ones I wanted to mention, but it got late so I’ve been writing it all day when I had a few free minutes during work. * * * First, I need to revise my suspicion list I posted (in-game) yesterday. After a quick review I’m slightly less suspicious of **Lemur866** and **Blaster Master**. This leaves **CaerieD** and **DiggitCamara**. Reading back through the thread I’m reminded of why I’ve been suspicious of **Lightnin’** , so he deserves a mention for the obvious reasons. A number of people today have mentioned suspicions of **Hal Briston**. He’s been flying mostly under my radar, as I think he has for the whole town, so I reviewed his posts to form some type of opinion about him. There wasn’t a lot there, but I don’t really like what little there was. First, I’d like to remind everyone of his over-anxious vanilla townie claim in post [190](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8483693&postcount=190): [QUOTE=Hal Briston] And lest anyone find that I’m fitting into **DiggitCamara** theory of “the scum’s interests dictate a strategy of diluting information and spreading paranoia”, let me just state for the record: I’m just a simple, babbling townie. [/QUOTE] This was in his first in-game post. He was called out back in Day 1 for this, so I won’t harp on it, but I still find this a little odd. In post [196](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8483938&postcount=196) he votes for **NAF1138** , citing **Kyrie Eleison** calling **NAF** out for asking questions he already knew the answer to. I don’t like this early pile-on. In post [210](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8484370&postcount=210) **Kyrie Eleison** turn around and FOSes **Hal Briston** for his townie claim, saying: [QUOTE=Kyrie Eleison] It seems to me that there are three possibilities: [ul] [li] **Hal Briston** is a simple townie, and has just made it a little easier for the mob to identify pro-town power roles[/li][li] **Hal Briston** is pro-town, but not a simple townie, in which case his lying may make things difficult for the town later[/li][li] **Hal Briston** is scum, and is hoping both to deflect suspicion, and to encourage townies to follow his lead and claim roles.[/li][/ul] None of these possibilities seem to have a pro-town outcome. FOS **Hal Briston**. [/QUOTE] In post [383](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8489797&postcount=383) he says: [QUOTE=Hal Briston] …snip… **NAF** – Others have put out good arguments for him. I’m wavering, but the vote still stands. **percypercy** – I’m suspicious, but that stems from his suspicions of **DiggitCamara** and **DC** ’s mentions of being a townie. Perhaps I’m being a sucker, but I buy **DC** ’s claims. Keeping my eye on **percy**. A couple of quick, unquantifiable notes before I have to leave work: **dnooman** – pinging heavily townie to me. **Projammer** – I’ve got unfounded scum suspicions there. **Rachm Qoch** I don’t really trust, but that just stems from his near-freakish ability to determine who is going to die. [/QUOTE] A few interesting points here. He’s casting suspicion on **NAF** and **percypercy** , two confirmed townies that both wind up dead by next morning. Also notice **dnooman** , who he says is pinging heavily townie. Keep that in mind as he switches to helping to get **dnooman** lynched the next day. In post [389](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8489863&postcount=389) he posts this in reply to **Idle Thoughts** making a case against **fluiddruid** due to non-random role assignments: [QUOTE=Hal Briston] Ok, this is bringing up a question that has jumped out at me before. **Gadarene** – how did you assign roles? We’re they completely random, or did you pick and choose who became what? [/QUOTE] **ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies** questions this in post [426](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8491509&postcount=426): [QUOTE=ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies] For me, the most interesting thing said in the past 24 RL hours has been. **Idle Thoughts’** idle thoughts about the technique used for role assignments and assuming that **fluiddruid** had been given a creamy chocolate vs vanilla center in post #387. I would have assumed that everyone would know that roles would be assigned at random by any GM with a soul. Which leads me to Hal, who’s follow up question to Gadrene in the same vein I also found interesting. My gut reaction is that neither of them would legitimately ponder in this manner, so their behavior is raising a flag for me. [/QUOTE] He answers this in post [429](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8491572&postcount=429): [QUOTE=Hal Briston] Maybe I’m not paying close enough attention, but that has to be one of the single most absurd statements I’ve seen in here so far. A first-time player asking the ref a perfectly legit question is flag-raising behavior? Of course I _figured_ he assigned roles randomly, and now we all know for sure. If there’s one thing I’ve gleaned from reading through the other threads, it’s that calling patently non-suspicious behavior suspicious is pretty damn suspicious in itself. [/QUOTE] This post seems a little over-defensive to me. I didn’t think **ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies’s** gut feeling that neither **Hal Briston** or **Idle Thoughts** would legitimately be pondering this issue. Later **Idle Thoughts** says that in games he runs roles aren’t assigned randomly, but **Hal Briston’s** reaction seemed over the top. In post [491](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8494993&postcount=491) he decides that since **Lightnin’** is a big target, **Hal** doesn’t like having his vote in the same place as **Lightnin’** because if **Lightnin’** is lynched, and turns out to be scum, he’s worried about guilt by association. In this post he unvotes **NAF** and votes **ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies** , citing post 429 (quoted above) as his reason. I encourage everyone to go read this post, as it is one of his that seems a little off to me. In post [598](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8502902&postcount=598) he replies to my saying we need to take a serious look at who derailed the **Projammer** wagon. He says: [QUOTE=Hal Briston] I don’t have an immediate answer to the second part, but as to the first part my notes say **dnooman** in post #461: “The Projammerwagon needs to stop and be inspected IMO”. [/QUOTE] This was the first suspicion cast on **dnooman** during Day 2, and he wound up being lynched. **Hal** continues to push for a **dnooman** lynching throughout the day. In post [655](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8504936&postcount=655) he says two of **dnooman’s** posts were screaming out to him: [QUOTE=Hal Briston] Ok, I’ve been looking back at the events since “last night”, and two of **dnooman** ’s posts are really screaming out at me: [Post #545](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8503219&postcount=545): This post was made just as night fell. My reply question is, why do you ask? Yes, a townie _could_ ask it, and the answer would give us a tiny grain of information, but that’s information that would be of _much_ more use to scum. Next up is [post #608](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8503219&postcount=608): Someone please correct me if I’m wrong here, but this reads to me like **dnooman** knows exactly how many players are scum, no? Perhaps I’m reading this completely wrong, but it seems to me like he just slipped and stated that there are four scum players. Am I missing something with this? [/QUOTE] And in post [746](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8510577&postcount=746) he votes for **dnooman** : [QUOTE=Hal Briston] I don’t believe I’ve voted for **dnooman** previously. However, seeing as no one in this game has pinged my scumometer more than he has, I’m going to go ahead and change that now – vote **dnooman**. [/QUOTE] [color removed] This was the vote that tied up **dnooman** and **Projammer** on day two, for what it’s worth. I noticed something interesting when checking the vote count. The four people voting for **dnooman** at that point are pretty much my suspicion list: **Lightin’** , **DiggitCamara** , **CaerieD** , **Hal Briston**. I’m not sure what to make of that. In post [826](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8515391&postcount=826) he says: [QUOTE=Hal Briston] …snip a little… Still not buying what **dnooman** is selling. Not a bit of it. If I’m wrong about this, then I’ll be the first one to drink to his memory, but damnit, I’m sticking to my guns on this one. As for **Projammer** ’s role claim, what was the point? The only way the Do-Gooder is useful is if the scum don’t know who has that role. I can’t see any good reason for claiming that role. Why not claim vanilla town, and hope for the best? Hell, if you really _are_ the Do-Gooder, then claim to be the detective and hope the scum _do_ try and claim you, thereby wasting their recruitment. I haven’t been one calling for **Projammer** to swing, but that just comes off as a very odd move to me. …snip a little… [/QUOTE] I include this one for completeness. If **Hal** is scum, this could be him trying to sit firmly on the fence so as to not look so bad when a townie is lynched. During Day 3, after **Kyrie** had been killed and a lot of suspicion thrown towards **fluiddruid** , **Hal** posts his suspicion list in post [931](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8525940&postcount=931): [QUOTE=Hal Briston] …snip… I’ve just done a quick readthrough of the day’s events, and have come to one major conclusion: The more sure I am that someone is scum, the more I realize how bad I am at scumdetecting. With that in mind, here’s the read I’m getting: Heavy Suspicion: **Projammer fluiddruid** Suspicion: **CaerieD ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies** …snip… [/QUOTE] Now, he does put **fluiddruid** second on the list, but **Projammer** before her. At this point I think the vote count was 3 votes **fluiddruid** (it was 4 until **Blaster Master** unvoted), and none for anyone else. If **Hal** is scum, he could be trying to derail the **fluiddruid** bandwagon here, but also put her at the top of the list as a cover in case it didn’t work. In post [1024](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8532557&postcount=1024) he votes for **Projammer** , making the vote count **fluiddruid** 5, **Projammer** 3 (including **Hal** ): [QUOTE=Hal Briston] Have to do this now, and quickly, since I’m about to go to the hospital and don’t know when I’ll be online again (blew my damn knee out, it seems). Of late, I’m slightly more suspicious of **Projammer** than I am of **fluiddruid** (but only slightly). Now, since I’ve proven to myself that my instincts in this game suck rocks, I’m very tempted to go away from my suspicions and either vote **fluiddruid** , or even say “hell with it” and toss a vote in some other, random direction. Then I realize that would be fricking ridiculous. Suspicions are there for a reason – if that reason is because they’re scum who slipped up, then woo hoo. If it’s because they’re town, but the actual scum made them look bad, then so be it. That would suck, but second-guessing every single thing will make you crazy. Vote **Projammer**. [/QUOTE] [color removed] As I’m sure we all remember, the votes swung, and **Projammer** died instead of **fluiddruid**. At the beginning of Day 4 he says in post [1150](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8546068&postcount=1150) that he wants to vote to lynch **fluiddruid** , but hedges a little: [QUOTE=Hal Briston] Geez, this is looking oogly. I want to vote to lynch **fluiddruid** , really I do. But (as I’ve stated before) it seems that the more sure I am about someone’s scum status, the more likely it turns out that they’re town. It’s getting to the point where I’m going to just start tossing darts at a list of names of those who I have little suspicion of and hoping to pick off scum… _\_ **nesta** … _\_ **tirial** … _\_ **DiggitCamara** … Sigh…let’s see what the next few (RL) days bring… …snip… [/QUOTE] In post [1160](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8546473&postcount=1160) he responds to **DiggitCamara’s** concern about a mason recruitment, saying that masons’ primary loyalty stays with the masons even if recruited: [QUOTE=Hal Briston] Sure about that? If a mason is recruited, his secondary loyalty will shift from town to mafia, but his first loyalty remains with the masons, does it not? [/QUOTE] This post surprised me, because I hadn’t remembered that rule. I thought maybe scum would be well aware of this since they would be paying careful attention to the recruitment rules. In post [1340](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8558442&postcount=1340) he votes for **fluiddruid** , but this is fairly late in the day when her fate was all but sealed. I’m not going to quote that post, but I encourage everyone to re-read it. The last post I’m going to point out, because the rest are all recent enough that everyone probably remembers them, is post [1413](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8567251&postcount=1413), where he asks for a rules clarification on whether the Mafia were told who each other were during Day 1: [QUOTE=Hal Briston] > [@SnakesCatLady](#): > > Did he find out Come to the Dark Side… was also mafia during Night 1? Not the case, but it raises an interesting point that I hadn’t considered before. Hey **Gadarene** – were all mafia members identifed to each other during the game setup, or did they have to wait until the first night to see who their allies were? I always assumed that it was the former, but if it’s the latter, then there may be some interesting voting patterns to be discerned. [/QUOTE] This was asked and answered during Day 1 (I think I was the one who asked, but I’m not sure). It’s not an unreasonable question, but this late in the game it pinged my scumdar. I was hoping to find a smoking gun in his posts, but I didn’t. His posting record is bad, but so are many of the rest of ours. He hasn’t posted much, and has been flying under the radar, but the same could be said of me and a few others. The biggest point in his favor has been his votes and FOSes for **fluiddruid** , but he did so in a way that it could have been out of necessity, since he didn’t add much suspicion until it seemed inevitable that she was going to get lynched. Many of his posts ping my scumdar, but not strongly enough for me to be 100% convinced. So I don’t know about **Hal Briston**. His posts and history have earned him a solid **FOS** from me, but not enough to vote for him yet. ---
**Author:** ![Millit\_the\_Frail](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@Millit\_the\_Frail](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Millit_the_Frail)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2007, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1506 "2007-05-16T02:59:21Z")
It’s been so quiet today! Do we need a town pep talk? I think we do. We’re tired. We’re weary. We’ve abandoned the local bar and are instead hiding in our root cellars. Our eyes are burning from gazing our monitors. I mean, from…looking around stealthily at each other. And the darkness in those root cellars. (Yeah.) It’s time to rise up, and take charge again. There’s gonna be a lynchin’! _waves pitchfork_ That’s the spirit! I’m starting to fear that we’re going to have a last-minute vote rush. That’s never good. The scum have it easiest when things happen too quickly for us to keep track of things. Right now, we have a 2-2 tie between **Lightnin’** and **SnakesCatLady**. I’m definitely sticking with **Lightnin’** for now, though **SCL** is up there on my list. Could we possibly get some more votes in tonight, or early tomorrow, before the snot starts hitting the fan? Before we’re trying to hack our way through the darkness among a small but fast-acting group who know all of our allegiances? As far as **Hal** and **nesta** , it’s good to hear from you both, though it’s only served to put both of you more firmly in my ??? category. I’m not sure I can buy the idea that asking questions about the game is a “scum acting clueless in order to hide” technique. But I was more than a little excited to see this: [QUOTE=nesta] This was the vote that tied up dnooman and Projammer on day two, for what it’s worth. I noticed something interesting when checking the vote count. The four people voting for dnooman at that point are pretty much my suspicion list: Lightin’, DiggitCamara, CaerieD, Hal Briston. I’m not sure what to make of that. [/QUOTE] That’s kind of crazy. I’m not sure I could see more than two Mafia being on that list. They couldn’t care _that_ much about the “swing” from **Projammer** to **dnooman**. Plus, such an obvious voting bloc would be really foolish. I strongly doubt they’d be bold enough (on Day 2!) to be three (or four) of the first four voters on a bandwagon that lynched a townie. Of **nesta’s** list, two are on my shortlist, one is impossible to get a read on, and the other is leaning town. If either **Lightnin’** or **CaerieD** is town, well…I’m still not sold on **Hal** or **Diggit** being scum, but I’ll be taking them off the back-burner of my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Rachm\_Qoch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a8b319/32.png) [@Rachm\_Qoch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachm_Qoch)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2007, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1507 "2007-05-16T03:00:35Z")
[QUOTE=nesta] First, I need to revise my suspicion list I posted (in-game) yesterday. After a quick review I’m slightly less suspicious of **Lemur866** and **Blaster Master**. This leaves **CaerieD** and **DiggitCamara**. Reading back through the thread I’m reminded of why I’ve been suspicious of **Lightnin’** , so he deserves a mention for the obvious reasons. [/QUOTE] I don’t know about **DiggitCamara** , but I’m still just as curious about **Lightnin’** as I was the last go-around. I can’t make up my mind if he’s mafia doing some kind of drunken-monkey kung-fu or if he’s just playing way out front as a townie. Same with **CaeireD** – she caught my interest coming down on both sides of **fluiddruid**. Looking at it now, she’s put herself in a damned-if-I-do damned-if-I-don’t situation, and I’m wondering to myself why a mafia would put herself in such a position, where she would attract suspicion from both sides. Is she a townie accidentally painting herself into a corner, or a clever mafia making a “townie mistake”? Or is she mafia but just screwed up, jumping off the pro-fluid wagon when she saw it was a lost cause? I was fairly confident when I put my vote on **fluiddruid** ; in comparison it’s kind of frustrating trying to make as solid a case against anyone else. It’s kind of funny now that I don’t see any particular individual as obvious scum, the whole damn town is looking kind of scummy, and I’m viewing virtually every post with suspicion. ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2007, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1508 "2007-05-16T03:27:25Z")
[QUOTE=Millit the Frail] \>snip\< I’m starting to fear that we’re going to have a last-minute vote rush. That’s never good. The scum have it easiest when things happen too quickly for us to keep track of things. Right now, we have a 2-2 tie between **Lightnin’** and **SnakesCatLady**. I’m definitely sticking with **Lightnin’** for now, though **SCL** is up there on my list. Could we possibly get some more votes in tonight, or early tomorrow, before the snot starts hitting the fan? Before we’re trying to hack our way through the darkness among a small but fast-acting group who know all of our allegiances? \>snip\< [/QUOTE] The 2-2 tie is between **Lightnin’** and **CaerieD**. I only have one vote at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Millit\_the\_Frail](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@Millit\_the\_Frail](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Millit_the_Frail)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2007, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1509 "2007-05-16T03:42:54Z")
[QUOTE=SnakesCatLady] The 2-2 tie is between **Lightnin’** and **CaerieD**. I only have one vote at the moment. [/QUOTE] Sorry. That’s what I meant. I’m feeling about the same toward you both, which is that you’re both “not as scummy-looking as **Lightnin’**.” So I got you confused. :smack: At least my spreadsheet had the right answers…I just didn’t consult it. ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2007, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1510 "2007-05-16T03:59:32Z")
I also agree that I’m worried about a last minute “rush to vote”. I do believe, however, that however the votes fall there will be some interesting discussions on Day 6. ---
**Author:** ![nesta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a4c791/32.png) [@nesta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nesta)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2007, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1511 "2007-05-16T04:00:53Z")
[QUOTE=Millit the Frail] That’s kind of crazy. I’m not sure I could see more than two Mafia being on that list. They couldn’t care _that_ much about the “swing” from **Projammer** to **dnooman**. Plus, such an obvious voting bloc would be really foolish. I strongly doubt they’d be bold enough (on Day 2!) to be three (or four) of the first four voters on a bandwagon that lynched a townie. [/QUOTE] Yeah, I thought the same thing. I had already revised my suspicion list and composed that part of my post before noticing this. It was a WTF moment when I saw they were all together like that on a day I figured the scum would be equally divided between the two confirmed townies or hanging back. I knew my suspicion list had contradictions. I don’t have examples off the top of my head, but a few of them have been going after each other in ways I don’t expect scum to do. My suspicion list is really just the top of my list, and not a solid “I’m sure these are the remaining scum” list. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2007, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1512 "2007-05-16T04:09:46Z")
> [@nesta](#): > > This post seems a little over-defensive to me. I didn’t think ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies’s gut feeling that neither Hal Briston or Idle Thoughts would legitimately be pondering this issue. Later Idle Thoughts says that in games he runs roles aren’t assigned randomly, but Hal Briston’s reaction seemed over the top. Can you re-parse that second sentence? ---
**Author:** ![nesta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a4c791/32.png) [@nesta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nesta)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2007, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1513 "2007-05-16T04:31:49Z")
[QUOTE=ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies] Can you re-parse that second sentence? [/QUOTE] Ugh, sorry about that, it doesn’t really say anything does it. I know what I meant, but I obviously didn’t say it. I think I left out the end of the sentence. I meant it to say that your gut feeling that **Hal** and **Idle** wouldn’t legitimately be pondering if role assignments were random was a _valid_ gut feeling. Or, to rephrase the actual sentence: “I didn’t think **ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies’s** gut feeling that neither **Hal Briston** or **Idle Thoughts** would legitimately be pondering this issue is absurd.” ---
**Author:** ![Omi\_no\_Kami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Omi\_no\_Kami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omi_no_Kami)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2007, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1514 "2007-05-16T06:14:50Z")
I’m still undecided on this whole \*\*Lightin’ \*\* vs **CaerieD** bit, but I just wanted to voice a slight observation; early on I mentioned that CaerieD was coming out of the gate much more confrontationally on day 1 than she’d ever behaved in the last game. A bunch of different people brought up the point that it’s often good for the detective to act conservatively and lay low, and I recall **CaerieD** confirming this by claiming that she’s ordinarily much more proactive. (I’m remembering this correctly, right? I’d appreciate it if Caerie or someone else point out her response to that affair, if my memories are off.) Anyway, at the time this seemed like an extremely reasonable explanation, and I eased off. However, I do want to mention that as the game has continued, CaerieD has grown quieter and less confrontational… there could be a lot of reasonable explainations for this, but it seems a little odd that she would start out in a confrontational mood, explain that it was normal for her to play that way, and then suddenly abandon that approach a couple of days in. Our only confirmed mobster, fluid, also made a lot of noise on day 1, probably in an effort to probe for power roles… so I don’t think it’s unreasonable to wonder if CaerieD didn’t have a similiar objective. FOS CaerieD ---
**Author:** ![CaerieD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@CaerieD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaerieD)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2007, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1515 "2007-05-16T13:28:37Z")
[QUOTE=Omi no Kami] I’m still undecided on this whole \*\*Lightin’ \*\* vs **CaerieD** bit, but I just wanted to voice a slight observation; early on I mentioned that CaerieD was coming out of the gate much more confrontationally on day 1 than she’d ever behaved in the last game. A bunch of different people brought up the point that it’s often good for the detective to act conservatively and lay low, and I recall **CaerieD** confirming this by claiming that she’s ordinarily much more proactive. (I’m remembering this correctly, right? I’d appreciate it if Caerie or someone else point out her response to that affair, if my memories are off.) Anyway, at the time this seemed like an extremely reasonable explanation, and I eased off. However, I do want to mention that as the game has continued, CaerieD has grown quieter and less confrontational… there could be a lot of reasonable explainations for this, but it seems a little odd that she would start out in a confrontational mood, explain that it was normal for her to play that way, and then suddenly abandon that approach a couple of days in. Our only confirmed mobster, fluid, also made a lot of noise on day 1, probably in an effort to probe for power roles… so I don’t think it’s unreasonable to wonder if CaerieD didn’t have a similiar objective. FOS CaerieD [/QUOTE] [Color removed] I’d think that my reasons for being far less proactive and vocal recently would be obvious. I messed up big time on Day 3 and have pretty much guaranteed my own eventual lynching at this point by 1) having a poor voting history, 2) defending **fluiddruid** , and 3) voting for fluiddruid in the end. I’m still not sure how realizing I was wrong and casting a vote in that direction stamps me as scum, but it seems to be the reasoning SnakesCatLady is using (P1490) and there’s no arguing with the facts. I really did do those things. At this point, I feel like all I can do is make it worse. Pretty much the only defense I have is that while I’ve made some huge missteps as a townie, I’d have to be some sort of raving lunatic to play like this as Mafia. Those interpreting my actions on previous days as trying to “lay low” or “disappear into the crowd” have really made me laugh. Everything I’ve done has drawn attention to me. I suppose you could say I’m scum with a bizarrely convoluted iocaine powder style strategy, but if I learned nothing else from Day 3 it’s that the more complicated you make your argument in this game the less likely you are to be right. I guess everyone else will have to make that mistake before they learn from it, though. [QUOTE=SnakesCatLady] I just can’t buy this. I have held off casting a vote (so have a lot of others, I’ve noticed), but I don’t want a last minute pile-on with no chance for discussion. I am still very suspicious of **Lightnin’** and **Hal Briston** , but **CaerieD** ’s defense of **fluiddruid** combined with her changing her mind just keeps leaping out in front. And yes, **CaerieD** , my voting record is better than yours. I have voted every time, which you have not, and I do not have any final votes for a townie. I _did_ vote for confirmed scum - three days in a row - a fact that **Idle Thoughts** is trying to use now to lynch me. Vote CaerieD [/QUOTE] [Color removed] **SCL** , the point about the voting history is that at that time _no one_, save scum and possibly Kyrie, knew for certain who they were voting for. The only way you’d know that you were voting for scum when you voted for **fluiddruid** is if you had insider information. Yes, in hindsight you hit the nail on the head, but that’s in hindsight. At the time of that post, you didn’t know unless you’re scum and were voting for your own kind, establishing a nice little “yay town!” record. Now, I’ve got a little bit of insider information on all of this. I _know_ I’m town and **fluiddruid** went out of her way to draw attention to my defense of her. It was her [defense](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8537933&postcount=1057) of herself on Day 3 that first gave me that sinking feeling in my stomach that maybe I’d been wrong all along. The vaguely “pro-town” role claim didn’t sit well with me, but more than that I didn’t like being called out in the defense as a defender. Town shouldn’t be trying to make alliances like that with one another, since it can come back to bite you if it turns out the other person is scum. And yet fluiddruid did. I started doubting all of my defense for her at that point, but still wasn’t sure she was scum and it seemed like **Projammer** was such a more likely target. And then there’s her defense on [Day 4](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8549912&postcount=1251). Again, she specifically advocates me, mentioning that I’m an alternate target but it wouldn’t be a good idea to go after me instead. I wavered on it a bit after that, but ultimately decided her defenses were so clearly designed to cast suspicion on others that she had to be scum. So I voted for her and for some bizarre reason my ability to change my mind and admit when I’m wrong is being touted by SCL as an example of my scumminess. My initial defense of fluiddruid, sure, but how exactly would you _expect_ town to act when they realize they’re wrong? Since all I know for certain is the dead and my own role, looking at fluiddruid’s defense makes me think **SnakesCatLady** is probably scum. **Lightnin’** is likely town. Like she did with me, fluiddruid made little advocacy comments for Lightnin’s sake: > [@](#): > > Frankly I’m not convinced that Lightnin is scum. Frankly there is more evidence against me than Lightnin and there’s not much between them. I sympathize with the guy since he’s been basically a target from the beginning with very little to go on. Frankly, I would be less suspicious of the person who votes for me versus the one who votes for Lightnin, because at least there is a legitimate hypothesis (while one, of course, I argue against) that I’m the detective breadcrumb. I really don’t see that with Lightnin. > > At the beginning of my research I thought it might be best for Town to off me. Being so high on the “suspicious” lists, all my arguments and thoughts will be seen in that light. Other candidates in that field would be Lightnin or CaerieD. I don’t know if that’s really a good strategy in the long term but I’d like to be useful for the team. I really hate the idea of staying in the game and having every one of my strategies assumed as misleading – as it really puts me in a position of difficulty to contribute at all. There are several references to what a bad idea it is to keep going after the same targets. Obviously, she meant herself, but kept inserting Lightnin’ in there, too. Why? Likely to establish this same sort of “alliance” appearance as she’d done between her and me. The only player she really attacks in any of this is **SnakesCatLady** , who’s called out and who repeatedly voted against her. fluiddruid has left two nice targets for the townies while giving enough townie cred to SCL that she can get away with voting for a few townies at this point, after having gone after scum three days in a row. I really hadn’t been sure about SCL at the beginning of this day and I don’t think my vote on Day 3 had the best reasoning behind it, but I’m getting more and more certain that she’s scum. Vote **SnakesCatLady** ---
**Author:** ![CaerieD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@CaerieD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaerieD)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2007, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1516 "2007-05-16T13:43:50Z")
In the middle of that monstrous post, I forgot to respond to the rest of **Omi no Kami** ’s post. I already wasted an hour this morning going back over the thread so I can’t do it now to find the posts in question, but I believe early on in this game I was called out for being too _quiet_, not too vocal. I had one of the lowest post counts at that time and then on Day 2 was when I started posting quite a bit and drawing more and more attention to myself and everything went to hell on Day 3. So while I have gotten more quiet today and my explanation for that still stands, as far as I’ve seen no one on past days accused me for being too proactive. ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2007, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1517 "2007-05-16T16:00:06Z")
## \…oh **nesta** , that was _goood_. Ok, let’s play along for a bit: > [@nesta](#): > > First, I’d like to remind everyone of his over-anxious vanilla townie claim in post 190: > \ > This was in his first in-game post. He was called out back in Day 1 for this, so I won’t harp on it, but I still find this a little odd. ## \ Newbie mistake. Yup…it was my first game post, and it seemed like something I should get out the way at the time. At that point, I had read the first few days of Werewolf, and hadn’t looked into the first Mafia thread at all. I figured it was a standard move (obviously, I now realize it’s not a good thing to do at all). > [@nesta](#): > > A few interesting points here. He’s casting suspicion on **NAF** and **percypercy** , two confirmed townies that both wind up dead by next morning. Yeah, that was me. I killed them. Both of them. They never saw it coming…got them both, completely on my own. Oh, wait, no, I remember now – I clearly said in the quoted post that my suspicions against **NAF** were wavering, and I later _unvoted_ him. I also clearly explained my suspicions against **percypercy** , and for them to influence anyone else’s vote, that person would have to have had the same opinion of **DiggitCamara** that I had. * * * Next up, one of my favorites – the **DarkSideCookies** “roles assignment question” bit. 1: I ask if roles are assigned randomly or not. 2: **DSC** decides that a first-time player asking that question is suspicious, since everyone knows roles are assigned randomly. 3: This raises a flag for me. No, I did not _know_ they were assigned randomly. I figured they were, but didn’t know it for sure. Vindication comes when it comes out that while the roles were assigned randomly in this game, other GMs do not do random assignments. This should be the obvious end to the matter. However, now **nesta** has addressed **DarkSideCookies** ’s suspicions: [QUOTE=nesta] …your gut feeling that **Hal** and **Idle** wouldn’t legitimately be pondering if role assignments were random was a _valid_ gut feeling. [/QUOTE] So, my wondering if role assignments were random was in some way a scum tell, _even though it has come out that some GMs **don’t** randomly assign_? Ohhhh-kay then. * * * > [@nesta](#): > > In [post 491](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8494993&postcount=491) he decides that since Lightnin’ is a big target, Hal doesn’t like having his vote in the same place as Lightnin’ because if Lightnin’ is lynched, and turns out to be scum, he’s worried about guilt by association. In this post he unvotes NAF and votes ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies, citing post 429 (quoted above) as his reason. I encourage everyone to go read this post, as it is one of his that seems a little off to me. Yes, please everyone, do read it, and point out to me any subterfuge. I readily admitted that I didn’t not want the record to show that I was voting in allegiance with a player who was so heavily suspected to be scum (and who, mind you, is still at the top of many of your lists). Especially since **DarkSideCookies** had made quite the leap on my scumdar. * * * > [@nesta](#): > > In post 598 he replies to my saying we need to take a serious look at who derailed the Projammer wagon. He says: > > [Quote=Hal Briston] > > I don’t have an immediate answer to the second part, but as to the first part my notes say dnooman in post #461: “The Projammerwagon needs to stop and be inspected IMO”. This was the first suspicion cast on dnooman during Day 2, and he wound up being lynched. [/quote] Ok, let’s get this straight. You ask “Who derailed the Projammerwagon?” I say “It looks like **dnooman** suggested it here”. You ask a question, I give a factual answer. Woah, good thing you pointed that out to everyone. You then go on to quote the bits about the possibility of **dnooman** slipping and admitting he knew how many scum players there were. This issue came up, was investigated, and was found to be faulty logic. Unfortunately, it was a large part of my suspicion of **dnooman**. I don’t know if it had bearing in his eventual lynching, but it was a mistake that I regret. * * * > [@nesta](#): > > During Day 3, after Kyrie had been killed and a lot of suspicion thrown towards fluiddruid, Hal posts his suspicion list in [post 931](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8525940&postcount=931): > \ > Now, he does put **fluiddruid** second on the list, but **Projammer** before her. Actually, no. Sorry if it was misleading, but the names were in no particular order. I was equally suspicious of the both of them. Amazing that the two people at the top of my suspicion list were the two people I voted for the next two days. * * * > [@nesta](#): > > In [post 1160](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8546473&postcount=1160) he responds to DiggitCamara’s concern about a mason recruitment, saying that masons’ primary loyalty stays with the masons even if recruited: > \ > This post surprised me, because I hadn’t remembered that rule. I thought maybe scum would be well aware of this since they would be paying careful attention to the recruitment rules. Or, it could have something to do with the printout of **Gadarene** ’s [roles post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8480796&postcount=105) tacked up two feet to my right. * * * Now, here’s where my problem comes in. I _know_ I’m not scum. But it’s been said, quite accurately, that in order for the town to win we have to have the ability to _think_ like scum. So let’s do that for a minute, shall we? > [@random scum](#): > > Hi everyone, I’m scum! I want to spread paranoia among the townies and get them at each other’s throats. How can I best do that? Hey, look, we have a town player who hadn’t been getting much notice, but a few players are starting to glance over at him. What a perfect time to go through his entire posting history and cherry-pick out each post that might make him look bad! Naturally I’ll ignore any later explanations, obvious answers or anything else that might hurt our case. The key here is to make sure the townies are niiice and suspicious of this player. And as a bonus, when he rebuts these statements and calls me out, I’ll be able to say “Hey, why so paranoid? Boy, being that defensive is a real scum tell, you know!” > > Perfect! So, what we have here is a mess of conjecture, easily explained. You’ve gone to a _lot_ of work to cast dispersions on me, but there is very little meat on those bones you’ve cast out. Now, I see two possibilities here: 1. You’re town – you wanted to see if there was anything to the rising suspicion against me, so you picked through all my posts and culled that which you thought relevant. You somehow missed a lot of obvious answers, but you didn’t mean to. You simply had the town’s best interest at heart, and so you presented your evidence with honesty. Wanna guess what the second possibility is? > [@nesta](#): > > So I don’t know about **Hal Briston**. Actually, I believe you know _exactly_ where I stand. Vote **nesta** ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2007, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1518 "2007-05-16T16:00:49Z")
[QUOTE=CaerieD] (snip) Since all I know for certain is the dead and my own role, looking at fluiddruid’s defense makes me think **SnakesCatLady** is probably scum. **Lightnin’** is likely town. Like she did with me, fluiddruid made little advocacy comments for Lightnin’s sake: There are several references to what a bad idea it is to keep going after the same targets. Obviously, she meant herself, but kept inserting Lightnin’ in there, too. Why? Likely to establish this same sort of “alliance” appearance as she’d done between her and me. (snip) [/QUOTE] Like I mentioned before, I don’t really think we could or should base our positions strongly on **fluiddruid** ’s defense. It’s likely that, long before posting it, she made sure that she both implicated and exonerated scum and did the same with Mafia. There are some examples for this: her list of “most trusted” to “least trusted”, her attacks/defenses of certain players, etc. etc. And then there are even more subtle ones. There is, for instance, the fact that she tried, again, to obfuscate the events of the first day. Specifically, the vote swing that saved **Lightnin’** , by making it appear that the vote swing had involved **Projammer**. Of course, by changing the perception of the events of the first day, one could argue she was actually trying to protect herself > [@possible defense](#): > > look, the previous “vote swing” happened between two confirmed townies; the same happened with me However, I still hold to my theory: On Day One there was a vote swing to help **Lightnin’** escape; on Day Three the same technique was used to help another scum ( **fluiddruid** ) escape. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2007, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1519 "2007-05-16T16:04:01Z")
**Updated Vote Count** 2 – **Lightnin’** (DiggitCamara, Millit the Frail) 2 – **CaerieD** (Lightnin’, SnakesCatLady) 2 – **SnakesCatLady** (Idle Thoughts, SnakesCatLady) 1 – **nesta** (Hal Briston) ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2007, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527/1520 "2007-05-16T16:06:24Z")
I do not think that post means what you think it means… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527.md?page=75) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mafia-the-game-iii-kinder-and-gentler/400527.md?page=77)